Will Britain piss off and get on with Brexit II (mod warning in OP)

Seth Brundle

RobMc59 wrote: »

Some of the potential advantages to Ireland are within the link I've provided here I believe.
The Commonwealth is a ready made 'starter kit' for a trade alliance but you'd have to buy into the concept.I also believe there is strength in unity(which is one reason I wanted the UK to remain).
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/why-the-republic-must-consider-rejoining-the-commonwealth-1.3605886

Ireland are in a trading alliance with wealthier countries. For what reason would we leave it? Is there a guarantee that our trade would increase?
Many of the countries are a long distance away. What impact would this have on costs to import something that we currently get from say Germany?
Leaving the politics of remaining the commonwealth aside, I can't see the benefits of leaving the EU and joining the CW.
If Ireland were to remain the commonwealth, who is in charge? Who decides on the minimum standards for goods? Who adjudicated on disputes?
What voice would Ireland have in terms of deciding new policies? Would Ireland have a veto on any decisions?

I'm failing to see the benefits that you seem to see. Maybe you could elaborate for me.

joseywhales

We might get some delicious coconut curries from the commonwealth, I'm all for that.

statesaver

Would there be a referendum on joining the Commonwealth or would it be a Dail vote ?

fash

conorhal wrote: »

Actually that's more like quibbling over the alimony, the EU seems baffled that their ex has changed the locks, doesn't want to see them without an invitation and doesn't want them in her fishy box any more.

UK is the one that was desperate for a deal. You might think that screwing Irish and European businesses for the benefit of British businesses is a good idea - but there are 450 million who disagree.

RobMc59

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

This is now my second response after my initial question and you have yet to highlight anything "exciting" about the Commonwealth or any reason why Ireland should join.

It will of course be easier for the UK to ratify trade deals. The problem is that they're negotiating with a vastly weaker hand with a department that isn't even five years old. All the deals that have been rolled over are just fragments of the status quo.

If you can point to any tangible positives, please feel free to do so but given that I've asked twice about the Commonwealth and got no answer means my hopes aren't high.

There is little monetary benefit to being in the Commonwealth at present as no one has attempted to channel it in that direction so far.It is good for forging relationships between nations through sporting and athletic events.It has been suggested that Ireland joining could be seen as a gesture which might help Irish reunification There are also the benefits of staging the Commonwealth games which bring in considerable tourism.
One third of the worlds population make up the Commonwealth so the potential of a trading alliance would be beneficial to its members imo.

RobMc59

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Ireland are in a trading alliance with wealthier countries. For what reason would we leave it? Is there a guarantee that our trade would increase?
Many of the countries are a long distance away. What impact would this have on costs to import something that we currently get from say Germany?
Leaving the politics of remaining the commonwealth aside, I can't see the benefits of leaving the EU and joining the CW.
If Ireland were to remain the commonwealth, who is in charge? Who decides on the minimum standards for goods? Who adjudicated on disputes?
What voice would Ireland have in terms of deciding new policies? Would Ireland have a veto on any decisions?

I'm failing to see the benefits that you seem to see. Maybe you could elaborate for me.

Who said Ireland would have to leave the EU?There are EU countries still part of the Commonwealth.I would think Ireland would have as much say as anyone else.None of the EU,the richer you are the more say you have set up.
Of course,if you measure everything by'whats in it for me'perhaps forging closer ties through sport and athletics and the possibility of helping a UI aren't your cup of tea Seth.

ancapailldorcha

RobMc59 wrote: »

There is little monetary benefit to being in the Commonwealth at present as no one has attempted to channel it in that direction so far.It is good for forging relationships between nations through sporting and athletic events.It has been suggested that Ireland joining could be seen as a gesture which might help Irish reunification There are also the benefits of staging the Commonwealth games which bring in considerable tourism.
One third of the worlds population make up the Commonwealth so the potential of a trading alliance would be beneficial to its members imo.

That's not very convincing. The trading alliance thing just doesn't make practical sense when it involves Brexit:

The project of expanding trade with the Commonwealth is not an irrational or ignoble one. But the belief that this can compensate for frayed links with Europe is a delusion. The government’s own analysis suggests that the UK would lose between 2 per cent and 8 per cent of GDP over 15 years from a “hard Brexit” (withdrawal from the single market and the customs union), while new trade deals with the US and others would add no more than 0.6 per cent.

One should have similar doubts as to the institutional case for replacing participation in the EU with the Commonwealth. There are in fact such institutional deficiencies prevailing at the Commonwealth that it is incapable of replacing the EU as a viable institution to secure deep and meaningful international cooperation. To start with, the aim of the institution is a modest one. According to the Commonwealth’s constituent instrument – The Revised Agreed Memorandum on the establishment and functions of the Commonwealth Secretariat 2005, it is an institution merely intended to play ‘a constructive role…At the same time it should operate initially on a modest footing; and its staff and functions should be left to expand pragmatically in the light of experience, subject always to the approval of Governments’ (Article 7).

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2019/06/18/global-britain-replacing-the-eu-with-enhanced-cooperation-at-the-commonwealth-is-not-a-viable-option/

Potentially hosting a minor sporting event is just a silly argument for Ireland re-joining.

Seth Brundle

RobMc59 wrote: »

Who said Ireland would have to leave the EU?There are EU countries still part of the Commonwealth.I would think Ireland would have as much say as anyone else.None of the EU,the richer you are the more say you have set up.
Of course,if you measure everything by'whats in it for me'perhaps forging closer ties through sport and athletics and the possibility of helping a UI aren't your cup of tea Seth.

So what exactly.would the point of joining the CW be?
I don't believe that joining the CW would have much effect on reunification but why would Irish people choose to join an organisation headed up by an undemocratic monarch (and strange given IIRC you previously accused the EU of being undemocratic)?
However, I note that you cannot provide one reason for joining aside from probablys or possiblys.

RobMc59

Seth Brundle wrote: »

So what exactly.would the point of joining the CW be?
I don't believe that joining the CW would have much effect on reunification but why would Irish people choose to join an organisation headed up by an undemocratic monarch (and strange given IIRC you previously accused the EU of being undemocratic)?
However, I note that you cannot provide one reason for joining aside from probablys or possiblys.

Most of what is posted on any of the brexit/piss off threads amounts to probabilities and possibilities.
Queensland reported an A$2.5 billion boost to their economy as a direct result of hosting the 2018 Commonwealth games.

ancapailldorcha

RobMc59 wrote: »

Most of what is posted on any of the brexit/piss off threads amounts to probabilities and possibilities.
Queensland reported an A$2.5 billion boost to their economy as a direct result of hosting the 2018 Commonwealth games.

So Ireland should join because it might get a one off boost? This is the crux of your argument when above you were going on about it being "exciting"?

RobMc59

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

So Ireland should join because it might get a one off boost? This is the crux of your argument when above you were going on about it being "exciting"?

RobMc59 wrote: »

I think the UK will be concentrating on securing equivalence regarding financial services with the EU before contemplating trade deals with other countries, although a trading alliance with other Commonwealth countries(54 including the UK) would be an exciting prospect(this might be the time for Ireland to consider rejoining!).

As you can see ,would be an exciting prospect.
Prospect-meaning possibility,a way of looking ahead.

RobMc59

RobMc59 wrote: »

As you can see ,would be an exciting prospect.
Prospect-meaning possibility,a way of looking ahead.

Saying it would be an exciting prospect over and over doesn't make it so...

ancapailldorcha

RobMc59 wrote: »

As you can see ,would be an exciting prospect.
Prospect-meaning possibility,a way of looking ahead.

This is beyond pathetic to be honest. The Commonwealth is a completely pointless relic of Empire. A minor sporting event does not change this and the fact that you think that the chance of hosting such an irrelevance is just scraping the bottom of the barrel.

RobMc59

Deleted User wrote: »

Saying it would be an exciting prospect over and over doesn't make it so...

Neither does why oh why did they leave undo brexit ...

RobMc59

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

This is beyond pathetic to be honest. The Commonwealth is a completely pointless relic of Empire. A minor sporting event does not change this and the fact that you think that the chance of hosting such an irrelevance is just scraping the bottom of the barrel.

There are countries that have no connection with the UK who have joined the Commonwealth.The majority of countries entitled to membership have retained that.What`s pathetic is the real reasons some people in Ireland would`nt join is because they`re stuck in the past and can`t(or don`t want) to move on.

ancapailldorcha

RobMc59 wrote: »

There are countries that have no connection with the UK who have joined the Commonwealth.The majority of countries entitled to membership have retained that.What`s pathetic is the real reasons some people in Ireland would`nt join is because they`re stuck in the past and can`t(or don`t want) to move on.

Ireland did move on. That was literally the point of leaving the Commonwealth. As I said, it's nothing more than an insipid vestige of Empire and you haven't suggested a single reason for Ireland to join it again.

Ireland trades with the UK, is neighbors with the UK and has a close and shared history but this alone is no reason to partake in nationalistic navel-gazing.

Leroy42

RobMc59 wrote: »

There are countries that have no connection with the UK who have joined the Commonwealth.The majority of countries entitled to membership have retained that.What`s pathetic is the real reasons some people in Ireland would`nt join is because they`re stuck in the past and can`t(or don`t want) to move on.

What is the UK expectations of any commonwealth trade pack? How long will it take, how far have then gone down the road?

What will be the set up, who deals with trade disputes, will there be a central administration?

Bonniedog

Joining the Commonwealth is a non starter, but having swapped one subservience for another, the least the Dublin government might have done was to press for a better deal with Brits once they had decided to leave rather than just go along with whatever Brussels decided.

Other EU states in central and eastern Europe seem quite able to manage to balance the economic aspects while refusing to kowtow to Brussels on immigration and other interferences in domestic affairs.

Our crowd just go along with whatever they are told to do. As demonstrated by their capitulation on the bailout.

Leroy42

Bonniedog wrote: »

Joining the Commonwealth is a non starter, but having swapped one subservience for another, the least the Dublin government might have done was to press for a better deal with Brits once they had decided to leave rather than just go along with whatever Brussels decided.

Other EU states in central and eastern Europe seem quite able to manage to balance the economic aspects while refusing to kowtow to Brussels on immigration and other interferences in domestic affairs.

Our crowd just go along with whatever they are told to do. As demonstrated by their capitulation on the bailout.

What in particular would you have wanted?

RobMc59

Leroy42 wrote: »

What is the UK expectations of any commonwealth trade pack? How long will it take, how far have then gone down the road?

What will be the set up, who deals with trade disputes, will there be a central administration?

My original post was mere speculation that perhaps the UK could explore the possibility of a trade alliance using the Commonwealth network as a basis(one third of the world population is a big market).
Personally,I'd prefer to see a less Brussels like administration in any future trade alliance the UK might become involved in.

listermint

RobMc59 wrote: »

My original post was mere speculation that perhaps the UK could explore the possibility of a trade alliance using the Commonwealth network as a basis(one third of the world population is a big market).
Personally,I'd prefer to see a less Brussels like administration in any future trade alliance the UK might become involved in.

The majority countries involved are tiny.

And I'm guessing the resolution and despute handling would be.... London... Based...

Seth Brundle

Bonniedog wrote: »

Joining the Commonwealth is a non starter, but having swapped one subservience for another, the least the Dublin government might have done was to press for a better deal with Brits once they had decided to leave rather than just go along with whatever Brussels decided.

We are not subservient. Would you stop with this paranoid nonsense. We are a member of a collective that has and continues to benefit this country immensely.
Had we pushed for "a better deal" and gotten told no, what would happen then?

Seth Brundle

RobMc59 wrote: »

Personally,I'd prefer to see a less Brussels like administration in any future trade alliance the UK might become involved in.

So it's simply "Anyone but Brussels"?
You would rather have Whitehall dictate to the peasants in Ireland rather than Ireland having an actual voice in a union that has done huge amounts of good for us?
:rolleyes:

RobMc59

Seth Brundle wrote: »

So it's simply "Anyone but Brussels"?
You would rather have Whitehall dictate to the peasants in Ireland rather than Ireland having an actual voice in a union that has done huge amounts of good for us?
:rolleyes:

I didn't say any of that Seth.
I am beginning to wonder though if the UK is able to sign free trade deals with other countries(like it has with Turkey)doesn't that make the whole point of the EU redundant?It must at least make other countries sit up and take notice.

Bonniedog

Seth Brundle wrote: »

We are not subservient. Would you stop with this paranoid nonsense. We are a member of a collective that has and continues to benefit this country immensely.
Had we pushed for "a better deal" and gotten told no, what would happen then?

I suggest you maybe read something about what happened around the time the bank bailout was forced on us. Shows you who our buddies were. Biden was batting for Goldman Sachs and the bondholders too as a matter of interest.

All of what you say is exactly what was said in response even to advocates of Home Rule prior to 1916.

Ireland's "elite" are like Johnny Fontana in the wedding scene at the Corleones.

"What can we do, what can we do ..."

twinytwo

RobMc59 wrote: »

I didn't say any of that Seth.
I am beginning to wonder though if the UK is able to sign free trade deals with other countries(like it has with Turkey)doesn't that make the whole point of the EU redundant?It must at least make other countries sit up and take notice.

Well good luck getting a trade deal with the bigger players like the US that does not heavily favor them. Nearly the entire world works in trading blocks now... for a very good reason.

You are either the biggest guy in the room or in a trading block. The UK is neither.

Leroy42

RobMc59 wrote: »

My original post was mere speculation that perhaps the UK could explore the possibility of a trade alliance using the Commonwealth network as a basis(one third of the world population is a big market).
Personally,I'd prefer to see a less Brussels like administration in any future trade alliance the UK might become involved in.

This is what you posted as well;

"One third of the worlds population make up the Commonwealth so the potential of a trading alliance would be beneficial to its members imo".

My reading of that is that you think the Commonwealth is a potential positive from Brexit.

All I am asking is why you think that. On what basis do you think it will be better than EU membership, what the potential trading benefits are, the costs to the UK, what the new system will look like and how it will operate.

My key issue would be why the UK government hasn't produced any plan for this. Have they been working in it?

storker

RobMc59 wrote: »

I didn't say any of that Seth.
I am beginning to wonder though if the UK is able to sign free trade deals with other countries(like it has with Turkey)doesn't that make the whole point of the EU redundant?It must at least make other countries sit up and take notice.

It'll make them take notice that the UK is ripe for plucking now it no longer has the clout of the EU behind it.

First Up

RobMc59 wrote:

I didn't say any of that Seth. I am beginning to wonder though if the UK is able to sign free trade deals with other countries(like it has with Turkey)doesn't that make the whole point of the EU redundant?It must at least make other countries sit up and take notice.

The UK already had a trade deal with Turkey as an EU member. Turkey is in the Customs Union. Turkey will be happy to keep selling their washing machines to the UK; there is no additional access to the Turkish market for UK companies to what they already had.

RobMc59

RobMc59 wrote: »

I didn't say any of that Seth.
I am beginning to wonder though if the UK is able to sign free trade deals with other countries(like it has with Turkey)doesn't that make the whole point of the EU redundant?It must at least make other countries sit up and take notice.

It's the end of 2020 and you've been active on this topic for years. There are no excuses for this level of ignorance.