Will Britain piss off and get on with Brexit II (mod warning in OP)

Doctor Roast

fash wrote: »

And you can nip speculation that you are a paedophile in the bud by denying that you've raped 285 children in 2020 alone and plan to rape 348 in 2021. But you haven't - why is that?
That is far, far more suspicious than some random person at the EU saying they had no plans to become a superstate.

Actually Ireland has an unequal say - if you look at the treaties (or ask the rather smarting UK).

Again I think you're being extremely naive of where this is headed,EU law supercedes national law. infact I think the EUs obsession with uniformity and making us all the same is tearing the soul out of countries.I'm not buying this pseudo EU identity /citizen either. Ireland wasn't even invited to this meeting... Nor were the others
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cityam.com/eu-referendum-foreign-ministers-six-founding-members-hold/amp/

Doctor Roast

Just out of interest how many of you fine people will nail your colours to the mast here and are in support of a united States of Europe with Ireland just as a state?

Seth Brundle

Doctor Roast wrote: »

To be honest the EU could have nipped brexit in the bud by coming out and declaring it has no intention of becoming a superstate, It hasnt instead we have the likes of bucktooth fanatic Verhofstadt squawking about it any chance he gets or Martin schultz who thinks member states should be thrown out if they don't want to federalise, let's also be honest here and admit that France or Germany has unequal say in this "union" I don't remember voting for Merkle here in Ireland...

Do you really think the English nationalists would have listened had the EU made such claims?
Anyhow, the EU does not get involved in internal politics and, as you saw over the last number of years, did not. Your attempt to personify this with the comment "bucktooth fanatic Verhofstadt squawking" or how you think Merkel(sic) is in charge shows the lack of any meaningful substance to your fanciful claims!

Doctor Roast

Seth Brundle wrote: »

So your idea of an end goal is some buildings and some "talk"? Seriously? :rolleyes:

Seriously stand back and look at the whole picture... Why does a trading bloc need its own parliament, commission, laws, courts? Please give me a good solid reason for this...
You ever see the words at the EU parliament visitor centre?

“National sovereignty is the root cause of the most crying evils of our times,
The only final remedy for this evil is the federal union of the peoples.”

It's not the only plaque with words to such effect...

Doctor Roast

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Do you really think the English nationalists would have listened had the EU made such claims?
Anyhow, the EU does not get involved in internal politics and, as you saw over the last number of years, did not. Your attempt to personify this with the comment "bucktooth fanatic Verhofstadt squawking" or how you think Merkel(sic) is in charge shows the lack of any meaningful substance to your fanciful claims!

Verhofstadt is a raving mad man, he did more for Brexit than Farage ever did, though Farage called it when he labelled him "the high priest of the EU parliament" that's how fanatical he is :pac:

Seth Brundle

Doctor Roast wrote: »

Seriously stand back and look at the whole picture... Why does a trading bloc need its own parliament, commission, laws, courts? Please give me a good solid reason for this...
You ever see the words at the EU parliament visitor centre?

“National sovereignty is the root cause of the most crying evils of our times,
The only final remedy for this evil is the federal union of the peoples.”

It's not the only plaque with words to such effect...

You're still not answering my original question. What is the end goal of the EU and who will it benefit?

Doctor Roast

Seth Brundle wrote: »

You're still not answering my original question. What is the end goal of the EU and who will it benefit?

I think I just did...

Seth Brundle

Doctor Roast wrote: »

I think I just did...

You think wrong! You've described some aspects that the EU has but not the end goal.
What are the EU aiming to achieve by having the buildings, courts, etc?

newmember2

Seth Brundle wrote: »

You think wrong! You've described some aspects that the EU has but not the end goal.
What are the EU aiming to achieve by having the buildings, courts, etc?

Ah c'mon...surely you're not that dense.

Doctor Roast

newmember? wrote: »

Ah c'mon...surely you're not that dense.

They are believe me.... And their number is many

Doctor Roast

Doctor Roast wrote: »

They are believe me.... And their number is many

A lot deny it... because well it was one of the reasons for Brexit.. And they're ever so eager to prove them wrong..

Seth Brundle

newmember? wrote: »

Ah c'mon...surely you're not that dense.

I am that dense. Please spell it out for me. What is the end goal of the EU and who stands to gain? Seeing as it must be quite obvious, you'll have no difficulty in explaining it along with reputable sources to back yourself up.

Imreoir2

Doctor Roast wrote: »

Just out of interest how many of you fine people will nail your colours to the mast here and are in support of a united States of Europe with Ireland just as a state?

I'm fairly ambivilant about it.

Some people are outspoken European federalists and want to turn the EU into a superstate as you say. Others are happy for the EU to continue as a supernational union of soverign nationstates. I don't have particularly strong feelings about it either way, European federalism is a legitimate ambition. If the peoples of Europe, including Ireland, decide to move in that direction in time I will be happy to go along with it, but it is not an objectve that I will personally be devoting time to achieve. Given that the governments of the member states have the leading role in the EU as it's currently structured, I am guessing that it will be a long time before we see them decide to give up that power within the EU instutions and hand it over to the EU itself.
It's not something that will ever be forced on the nations of Europe against their will in any case.

In the meantime I am happy for the integration of Europe to continue as and where it can be shown to be beneficial to its members. The way the EU defended our national interest in the Brexit negotiations is just the latest evidence of the many benefits of our membership.

Seth Brundle

Doctor Roast wrote: »

A lot deny it... because well it was one of the reasons for Brexit..

English nationalism? Fear of UKIP?

First Up

The European Union is the most successful political, economic and social innovation in history.

It has brought peace and prosperity and advanced social justice across a continent with a feudal legacy and that had torn itself apart twice in warfare in the last century.

It has enabled European industry compete with the US and China and brought us to the leading edge of technology. And all while allowing every member not only retain but increase their sovereignty.

Much too successful for some people's comfort and understanding but sure ....

VinLieger

Imreoir2 wrote: »

I'm fairly ambivilant about it.

Some people are outspoken European federalists and want to turn the EU into a superstate as you say. Others are happy for the EU to continue as a supernational union of soverign nationstates. I don't have particularly strong feelings about it either way, European federalism is a legitimate ambition. If the peoples of Europe, including Ireland, decide to move in that direction in time I will be happy to go along with it, but it is not an objectve that I will personally be devoting time to achieve. Given that the governments of the member states have the leading role in the EU as it's currently structured, I am guessing that it will be a long time before we see them decide to give up that power within the EU instutions and hand it over to the EU itself.
It's not something that will ever be forced on the nations of Europe against their will in any case.

In the meantime I am happy for the integration of Europe to continue as and where it can be shown to be beneficial to its members. The way the EU defended our national interest in the Brexit negotiations is just the latest evidence of the many benefits of our membership.

Indeed, im not out there campaigning for it but if that's the way things turn i don't think it would necessarily be a bad thing especially considering the diminishing prominence and ability to trust in the US as a guard and ally against the likes of China and Russia. Europe will likely need to become closer and rely on each other far more due to the threat both of them present and petty nationalistic self interest of individual states will be Europes downfall against an aggressive China and Russia

fly_agaric

Doctor Roast wrote: »

Just out of interest how many of you fine people will nail your colours to the mast here and are in support of a united States of Europe with Ireland just as a state?

Yes, I do want the EU to go in that direction. Things being dealt with at the EU level rather than country level where appropriate according to the subsidiarity principle.

I think even the most powerful European states may be too small to handle problems they are facing and will need to work together more and not less. UK (as a large European power that is now very much trying to go its own way outside the EU "framework" for cooperating) could be a bit of a test case for that theory in coming years.

At the end of the day while I sometimes post them here [on threads concerning Brexit], I won't be pushing the opinions I have about this on people I know, or pestering political reps about "ever closer union", so maybe that makes me ambivalent really?

No doubt you think that is some sort of gotcha judging by the usual UK tabloid type insults and slurs you throw out about "Merkle"/Verhofstadt and the like.
As a political belief, it is much less harmful than what is underlying the opposite ones imo.

fash

Doctor Roast wrote: »

Again I think you're being extremely naive of where this is headed,EU law supercedes national law.

Only insofar as national law (and how the people of Ireland voted) allows it. How else could it be?

infact I think the EUs obsession with uniformity and making us all the same is tearing the soul out of countries.

You should be in favour of the EU protections of geographical indicators then - on behalf of the EU, you are welcome.

I'm not buying this pseudo EU identity /citizen either. Ireland wasn't even invited to this meeting... Nor were the others

Are you sure you weren't just not paying attention?

newmember2

Seth Brundle wrote: »

I am that dense. Please spell it out for me. What is the end goal of the EU and who stands to gain? Seeing as it must be quite obvious, you'll have no difficulty in explaining it along with reputable sources to back yourself up.

A 'United States of Europe'?

Stick it into a search engine of your choice...

Doctor Roast

fly_agaric wrote: »

Yes, I do want the EU to go in that direction. Things being dealt with at the EU level rather than country level where appropriate according to the subsidiarity principle.

I think even the most powerful European states may be too small to handle problems they are facing and will need to work together more and not less. UK (as a large European power that is now very much trying to go its own way outside the EU "framework" for cooperating) could be a bit of a test case for that theory in coming years.

At the end of the day while I sometimes post them here [on threads concerning Brexit], I won't be pushing the opinions I have about this on people I know, or pestering political reps about "ever closer union", so maybe that makes me ambivalent really?

No doubt you think that is some sort of gotcha judging by the usual UK tabloid type insults and slurs you throw out about "Merkle"/Verhofstadt and the like.
As a political belief, it is much less harmful than what is underlying the opposite ones imo.

No If anything fair play for stating your position, normally you get some mealey mouthed response, would you also be of the belief that people should get a say if they want this united States of Europe and for that decision to be respected? And not the usual dubious form of democracy we've come to expect with the EU or this federalism through stealth and manipulation.. After all it is their future being decided.

Imreoir2

Doctor Roast wrote: »

No If anything fair play for stating your position, normally you get some mealey mouthed response, would you also be of the belief that people should get a say if they want this united States of Europe and for that decision to be respected? And not the usual dubious form of democracy we've come to expect with the EU or this federalism through stealth and manipulation

Such a change would require a referendum in Ireland at any case. Each EU member state is free to ratify such a change as they see fit within their own constitutional arangements. From an Irish perspective, I can understand the position that such a change should require a referendum, but then again referendums play a less prominent part in the political process of other countries and the citizens of other countries may well feel that it is more appropriate that such a matter be delt with by their parliament. It's not for us, or for the EU, to determine what process a member state should adopt.

There is no federalism by stealth or any other means, the EU is not a federal nation state.

Junkyard Tom

fly_agaric wrote: »

No doubt you think that is some sort of gotcha judging by the usual UK tabloid type insults and slurs you throw out about "Merkle"/Verhofstadt and the like.

Yeah you can imagine the type of oddballs and reactionaries these people pay attention to. They've been conditioned to be against further EU cooperation and integration but don't really know why except for 'hurr-durr sUpErStAte, EU ArMy, cOnScRiPtIoN, NaZi GeRmAnY, UsSr, hurr-durr'

Waste of bandwidth.

Doctor Roast

newmember? wrote: »

A 'United States of Europe'?

Stick it into a search engine of your choice...

You're wasting your time, I've spent at least 15 years trying to tell people this though I'm convinced deep down they know were it's headed, the same way I'm convinced they don't really believe this rerunning referendums until the EU gets the desired result or outright ignoring them is democratic..

Imreoir2

newmember? wrote: »

A 'United States of Europe'?

Stick it into a search engine of your choice...

What makes you think a 'United States of Europe' is the end goal of the EU? Where is it mentioned in the treaties?

The idea that 'this is where it is headed' is an oddly deterministic viewpoint given that the EU (assuming it had this goal, which it does not) has no way of bringing this outcome about other than by convincing the governments and peoples of Europe to accept that outcome.

It is a goal of some people yes, but not of the EU itself. Saying that a United States of Europe is where things are headed is like saying that a United Ireland under English rule is where we are headed. Some people would like that sure, but its not happening if they can't convince the rest of us.

Seth Brundle

newmember? wrote: »

A 'United States of Europe'?

Stick it into a search engine of your choice...

Finally getting somewhere :rolleyes:
Any credible sources that this is the end goal of the EU?

Doctor Roast

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Yeah you can imagine the type of oddballs and reactionaries these people pay attention to. They've been conditioned to be against further EU cooperation and integration but don't really know why except for 'hurr-durr sUpErStAte, EU ArMy, cOnScRiPtIoN, NaZi GeRmAnY, UsSr, hurr-durr'

Waste of bandwidth.

And yet here you are... Please explain when this conditioning begun? Was it in school? Down at the local arcade? The GAA?

Professor Moriarty

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Finally getting somewhere :rolleyes:
Any credible sources that this is the end goal of the EU?

One government for Greece, Austria, Belgium, Sweden, Portugal, Hungary, France and Lithuania. Paddy Power would give generous odds on that happening.

fly_agaric

Doctor Roast wrote: »

No If anything fair play for stating your position, normally you get some mealey mouthed response, would you also be of the belief that people should get a say if they want this united States of Europe and for that decision to be respected? And not the usual dubious form of democracy we've come to expect with the EU or this federalism through stealth and manipulation.. After all it is their future being decided.

I don't agree with your characterisation of democracy at EU level as "dubious".

Elements that Eurosceptics often point to are a result of the fact that the EU is not a federation/state (or close to it) and main movers in it are the member state governments + the leaders representing their people at EU level.

There's alot of stuff that goes on at lower levels (incl. right here in Ireland, without mentioning the UK) that is more democratically dubious imo (and has a larger impact on people day to day).

As regards some federalisation process occurring by "stealth", we've voted on the various steps along the way as the EEC became the EC and then the EU. We've possibly had too many referendums on EU treaties here in Ireland.

However something major (like a shiny new treaty that is handing a significant amount of new powers to EU institutions or altering how they operate) should be voted on again. It will be, as (if irc) we have had a Supreme Court ruling to that effect.

edit: Should clarify that a future EU with more powers in some areas (which is what I'd be in favour of + why I answered yes to your previous question) is imo never going to be the "United States of Europe". It would be a different animal, its own species.

Doctor Roast

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Yeah you can imagine the type of oddballs and reactionaries these people pay attention to. They've been conditioned to be against further EU cooperation and integration but don't really know why except for 'hurr-durr sUpErStAte, EU ArMy, cOnScRiPtIoN, NaZi GeRmAnY, UsSr, hurr-durr'

Waste of bandwidth.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/08/gove-accuses-eu-of-indoctrinating-children-with-cartoon-booklet

Imreoir2

Doctor Roast wrote: »

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/08/gove-accuses-eu-of-indoctrinating-children-with-cartoon-booklet

Hard to tell if you are disagreeing or agreeing with that post...