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Will Britain piss off and get on with Brexit II (mod warning in OP)

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    #5432
    McGiver
    Registered Users Posts: 4,446 ✭✭✭McGiver


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Mistakes can be made. It's are you willing to take the criticism and revoke/fix the mistake, that is important.
    And the mistake was correctly quickly!
    So now the eurosceptics who say the EU is too slow will yell that it was too fast :pac:

    We're wasting time here. This euroscepticism (of this kind) is an irrational, trumpian, destructive ideology and you can't argue with it using facts.

    You can only have a functioning democracy if there is a civilised debate going on with both sides using facts and rational arguments. If one side does not subscribe to this playbook, it's impossible to lead any debate and in turn democracy collapses (refer to fascist, nazi, communist tactics in 1920s, 1930s and 1940s).


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    #5433
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,708 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Mav11 wrote: »
    She's on the RTE news just now bleating and remember who her audience is? I'm pretty sure that this will do nothing to strengthen NI desire to remain in the EU. The DUP are delighted.

    Yeah but it was just a "typo" :rolleyes:

    Absolutely absurd excuses for indifference and incompetence with this shambles that started no where else but the commission.

    I couldn't believe when I saw this yesterday, it's mind boggling.


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    #5434
    McGiver
    Registered Users Posts: 4,446 ✭✭✭McGiver


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    I'm not getting in to this. I have made my position clear before.

    I don't want there ever to be a federal Europe or anything of the sort. A common market is what I want which is what we have.

    I am an Irish citizen and I will never ever accept the taking of my nationality away from me by Europe and if you believe I am somehow unique among Irish people you are seriously mistaken.

    At this moment there is no fire but we can see how the fire starts down the road.

    Yes to a common market, no to a country called Europe.

    It can't be made any more straight forward.
    Third time - to what end and how do you propose to achieve it? Details missing.


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    #5435
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,708 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    McGiver wrote: »
    Third time - to what end and how do you propose to achieve it? Details missing.

    By maintaining the current common market. The currency may have to go eventually or some members will have to leave but other than that I see no difficult in maintaining the current status across the EU.


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    #5436
    McGiver
    Registered Users Posts: 4,446 ✭✭✭McGiver


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    By maintaining the current common market.
    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Yes to a common market, no to a country called Europe.

    Since you are not replying on "how", I will reply for you.

    You are effectively advocating for the Republic of Ireland to leave the EU, leave the Euro and remain in the EEA.

    Certain Mr Hannan and Mr Farage were claiming the same in the UK 4 years ago. Was this in fact implemented in the UK?


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    #5437
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,708 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    McGiver wrote: »

    You are effectively advocating for the Republic of Ireland to leave the EU, leave the Euro and remain in the EEA.

    I'm not so what you say is not relevant. What's the point in debating with you if you don't absorb what is being said?


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    #5438
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,714 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    I'm not getting in to this. I have made my position clear before.

    I don't want there ever to be a federal Europe or anything of the sort. A common market is what I want which is what we have.

    I am an Irish citizen and I will never ever accept the taking of my nationality away from me by Europe and if you believe I am somehow unique among Irish people you are seriously mistaken.

    At this moment there is no fire but we can see how the fire starts down the road.

    Yes to a common market, no to a country called Europe.

    It can't be made any more straight forward.
    You're taking a stand against something that nobody is proposing? Good on you!


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    #5439
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,708 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    You're taking a stand against something that nobody is proposing? Good on you!

    The poster is implying it's inevitable so you can't keep pulling that line when it's in black and white text what is being responded to.


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    #5440
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,708 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Yeah but it was just a "typo" :rolleyes:

    Absolutely absurd excuses for indifference and incompetence with this shambles that started no where else but the commission.

    I couldn't believe when I saw this yesterday, it's mind boggling.

    Seems obvious that AstraZeneca bear quite a bit of responsibility. Odd that you don't have any harsh language for them.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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    #5441
    Doctor Roast
    Closed Accounts Posts: 325 ✭✭Doctor Roast


    McGiver wrote: »
    Third time - to what end and how do you propose to achieve it? Details missing.

    They've been pushing it that way the last number of years all against people's wishes, like when the French and Dutch rejected the an EU constitution only to be ignored


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    #5442
    Doctor Roast
    Closed Accounts Posts: 325 ✭✭Doctor Roast


    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    You're taking a stand against something that nobody is proposing? Good on you!

    Except some of the most vocal in the EU, Verhofstadt, Schultz etc, the EU operates on the basis of federalistion through stealth


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    #5443
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,708 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Doctor Roast wrote: »
    Except some of the most vocal in the EU, Verhofstadt, Schultz etc, the EU operates on the basis of federalistion through stealth

    It can only happen with the consent of the member states and that's an impossibility at the moment.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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    #5444
    Doctor Roast
    Closed Accounts Posts: 325 ✭✭Doctor Roast


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    It can only happen with the consent of the member states and that's an impossibility at the moment.

    Do you think the people will get a say on that and if they do will it be respected going by past EU history of these things?


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    #5445
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,708 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    Seems obvious that AstraZeneca bear quite a bit of responsibility. Odd that you don't have any harsh language for them.

    I think you are confusing things.

    I'm referring to the appalling way our government was treated yesterday. Not even a phone call according to Tony Connelly. No discussion, not informed. Just a statement from the commission that this was what they were doing.

    Indefensible.


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    #5446
    fly_agaric
    Registered Users Posts: 4,898 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    By maintaining the current common market. The currency may have to go eventually or some members will have to leave but other than that I see no difficult in maintaining the current status across the EU.

    At last an admission that you want to go backwards as it were (the EU is more than a "common market").
    I thought you were okay with the Euro (and by extension ECB) in another set of posts over in politics forum but now "it may have to go too"? Which members should leave do you think?

    On this mess up, trade in general, the Brexit trade agreements with the UK, the EU-UK withdrawal agreement incl. NI protocol are all EU level competences, but yes this should never have gotten out the door in the shocking way it did.

    There must be some rage and or panic in the EU about vaccine procurement & distribution. I wonder if we (assuming we are all ordinary joes just reading the news and commenting) know exactly what is going on here?

    As for "not getting into it", you do "get into it" regularly by posting your views publically. That will leave them open to challenge from others.

    When it comes to the EU you are objectively a fairly hard Euro-sceptic (unless you make all your posts on this site ironically or something, as a bit of a laugh). That is not moderate in an Irish context at all, whatever your own hopes for the growth in such beliefs.


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    #5447
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,708 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    fly_agaric wrote: »
    At last an admission that you want to go backwards as it were (the EU is more than a "common market").
    I thought you were okay with the Euro in another set of posts over in politics forum but now "it may have to go too"? Which members should leave do you think?

    On this mess up, trade in general, the Brexit trade agreements with the UK, the EU-UK withdrawal agreement incl. NI protocol are all EU level competences, but yes this should never have gotten out the door in the shocking way it did.

    There must be some rage and or panic in the EU about vaccine procurement & distribution. I wonder if we (assuming we are all ordinary joes just reading the news and commenting) know exactly what is going on here.

    As for "not getting into it", you do "get into it" regularly by posting your views publically. That will leave them open to challenge from others.

    When it comes to the EU you are objectively a fairly hard Euro-sceptic (unless you make all your posts on here ironically or something, as a bit of a laugh). That is not moderate in an Irish context at all, whatever your own hopes for the growth in such beliefs.

    Again not reading what is being said. I never said Ireland should leave the Euro.

    I don't believe the Euro can survive while maintaining all the current members. Ireland is not the same as Greece and Portugal is not the same as Germany.

    Having fiscally responsible countries in the same currency with irresponsible ones is not a viable long term proposition and will always be unstable.

    Hence I believe some of the debtor nations will have to exit or remain in a fiscal trap as they can't devalue.

    They'll probably be forced to anyway when the next cycle of sovereign debt crisis occurs.


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    #5448
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,708 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    I think you are confusing things.

    I'm referring to the appalling way our government was treated yesterday. Not even a phone call according to Tony Connelly. No discussion, not informed. Just a statement from the commission that this was what they were doing.

    Indefensible.

    More histrionics.

    The Commission backtracked when it saw how bad an idea this was whereas Europhobes are cheering the death of their own fishing industry. I'll take the EU over the UK any day.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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    #5449
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,708 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    More histrionics.

    The Commission backtracked when it saw how bad an idea this was whereas Europhobes are cheering the death of their own fishing industry. I'll take the EU over the UK any day.

    Do you criticise the commission for not informing our government of their intentions yesterday on a policy with profound implications for this island?


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    #5450
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,708 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Do you criticise the commission for not informing our government of their intentions yesterday on a policy of profound implications for this island?

    Absolutely.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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    #5451
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,708 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    Absolutely.

    Great! So do I. So we are on the same page.

    See, the EU is uniting everyone :cool:


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    #5452
    fly_agaric
    Registered Users Posts: 4,898 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Again not reading what is being said. I never said Ireland should leave the Euro.

    I don't believe the Euro can survive while maintaining all the current members. Ireland is not the same as Greece and Portugal is not the same as Germany.

    Having fiscally responsible countries in the same currency with irresponsible ones is not a viable long term proposition and will always be unstable.

    Hence I believe some of the debtor nations will have to exit or remain in a fiscal trap as they can't devalue.

    I did not say you posted "Ireland should leave the Euro".

    Of course I know you would not actually post something like that, it would make you look like a little bit of a loon, similar to coming right out with it & posting "Ireland should leave the EU now".

    You actually posted "it has to go eventually" not quite "it cannot survive as it is" or "it is not sustainable in current form", so good to clarify what you meant there (with an expanded explanation).


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    #5453
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,708 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Great! So do I. So we are on the same page.

    See, the EU is uniting everyone :cool:

    We really aren't. You're pretending to be outraged so you can spout your Europhobic nonsense.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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    #5454
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,708 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    We really aren't. You're pretending to be outraged so you can spout your Europhobic nonsense.

    Your toys are out of the pram because you can't defend the commission on this one.

    At least you have acknowledged this country was treated badly yesterday. I have zero interest in using this as some sort of stick but I will call out when we are treated this way either by the Brits or the EU.

    The main thing is it doesn't happen again.


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    #5455
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,708 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Your toys are out of the pram because you can't defend the commission on this one.

    At least you have acknowledged this country was treated badly yesterday. I have zero interest in using this as some sort of stick but I will call out when we are treated this way either by the Brits or the EU.

    The main thing is it doesn't happen again.

    Literally no damage has been done. This isn't the weird gotcha moment you think it is.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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    #5456
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,708 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    Literally no damage has been done. This isn't the weird gotcha moment you think it is.

    You're the one paranoid about a "gotcha moment", I haven't treated it like that at all nor do I see that way.

    However I am pissed off because it's given ammunition to those who actively want a border back on this island. That is the damage done and it has to be countered now - all needless.


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    #5457
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,708 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    You're the one paranoid about a "gotcha moment", I haven't treated it like that at all nor do I see that way.

    However I am pissed off because it's given ammunition to those who actively want a border back on this island. That is the damage done and it has to be countered now - all needless.

    And yet you say nothing about the DUP who were clamouring for the triggering Article 16 weeks back.

    As I said, Europhobic nonsense.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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    #5458
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,708 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    And yet you say nothing about the DUP who were clamouring for the triggering Article 16 weeks back.

    As I said, Europhobic nonsense.

    Incorrect. I have consistently slammed the British government over their attempts to unpick the new arrangements and have zero time for the DUP and their bs. They backed Brexit so they can suck up it's consequences for the north which was always going to be a border in the Irish Sea.


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    #5459
    Melanchthon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,118 ✭✭✭Melanchthon


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    We really aren't. You're pretending to be outraged so you can spout your Europhobic nonsense.

    Nah b@lls to that interpretation a lot of people live, work or have friends and relatives in Northern Ireland.
    This wasn't some sin of omission, they specifically included article 16 in the document they released, that means they were completely aware of what they were doing.


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    #5460
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Melanchthon wrote: »
    Nah b@lls to that interpretation a lot of people live, work or have friends and relatives in Northern Ireland.
    This wasn't some sin of omission, they specifically included article 16 in the document they released, that means they were completely aware of what they were doing.

    The only defence people can make now for the Commision is that they imposed a hard border on this Island by accident. After spending five years telling all and sundry that a hard border was unacceptable.

    An admission of gross negligence that would be unacceptable if they were stacking shelves in Lidl.


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    #5461
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,708 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Melanchthon wrote: »
    Nah b@lls to that interpretation a lot of people live, work or have friends and relatives in Northern Ireland.
    This wasn't some sin of omission, they specifically included article 16 in the document they released, that means they were completely aware of what they were doing.

    They didn't do anything in the end but somehow it's fine when the DUP demand disruption.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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