Will Britain piss off and get on with Brexit II (mod warning in OP)

McGiver

Kermit.de.frog wrote:

I'm not so what you say is not relevant. What's the point in debating with you if you don't absorb what is being said?

So if you do not advocate for the Republic of Ireland leaving the EU but staying in the EEA then how do you propose the Republic gets from the state of EU membership to the state of "Common Market"?

McGiver

Kermit.de.frog wrote:

The poster is implying it's inevitable so you can't keep pulling that line when it's in black and white text what is being responded to.

No, I didn't.

I said it is a long term objective with an unspecified future date and a hypothetical event as of yet. It will happen only when all member states will agree for it to happen. There is no indication for this to happen anytime soon and the way from a loose confederation to a federal state is very long.

So you are objecting to a hypothetical scenario. Just like Farage.

McGiver

Doctor Roast wrote:

Except some of the most vocal in the EU, Verhofstadt, Schultz etc, the EU operates on the basis of federalistion through stealth

Sure. Expertly stealthily hidden in the Treaty of Rome 1957 and then all other EU Treaties. Try another one.

Doctor Roast

McGiver wrote: »

Sure. Expertly stealthily hidden in the Treaty of Rome 1957 and then all other EU Treaties. Try another one.

I don't know if you caught the post I did last night, that a mod seems to have now deleted...
It gives you an insight into how the EU operates...

Larbre34

Doctor Roast wrote: »

I don't know if you caught the post I did last night, that a mod seems to have now deleted...
It gives you an insight into how the EU operates...

No, it gave your ravings about how you seem to perceive the EU works, or you were just trolling.

54and56

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Do you criticise the commission for not informing our government of their intentions yesterday on a policy with profound implications for this island?

The commission are the EU Civil Service.

They fckued up yesterday.

Civil servants fcuk up all the time. They're human.

It's newsworthy because by its own high standards what the Commission did yesterday was ill judged and even more poorly communicated and executed.

The grown up take away however is that despite the perceived snub of not being informed in advance the situation was quickly reviewed, Ireland's concerns were taken fully on board and the decision was reversed.

A great example of maturity and adult decision making.

We should never let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

Show me someone who's never made a mistake and I'll show you someone who's never made anything.

Melanchthon

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

They didn't do anything in the end but somehow it's fine when the DUP demand disruption.

It's not fine when the DUP do that but if your holding the EU to only the same standards as the DUP and you think that's fine you've been completely blinded by your ideology.
In a partnership of "equals" they might have given a Irish figure a call before releasing it right? Fact they didn't feel the need to bother says a lot.

Doctor Roast

Larbre34 wrote: »

No, it gave your ravings about how you seem to perceive the EU works, or you were just trolling.

What? you mean quoting what actual eurocrats said, did and happened is raving?

Doctor Roast

Larbre34 wrote: »

No, it gave your ravings about how you seem to perceive the EU works, or you were just trolling.

I can post it up again for ya absolutely no problemo...
I'm always amazed on this thread about just how clueless and naive some of the EUs most ardent supporters are..
I had one telling me it was "Fictional whataboutery" to which I invited him to take it to PM with me if he was so cocksure... I have all my sources and links here just waiting to go...

Dyr

54and56 wrote: »

The commission are the EU Civil Service.

They fckued up yesterday.

Civil servants fcuk up all the time. They're human.

Civil servants dont have the power to change another countrys border for them.

In the EU we have "civil servants" who have been given executive power.

Donald Trump

Bambi wrote: »

Civil servants dont have the power to change another countrys border for them.

In the EU we have "civil servants" who have been given executive power.

Did you not read the story? No border was being changed. They were just exercising their authority to prevent certain products from being exported by bad faith actors.

They may not have fully understood, or were being lax in, what they were proposing. But then it was all quickly sorted. No harm done.

No Nordies were harmed in the making of this post

Dyr

Donald Trump wrote: »

Did you not read the story? No border was being changed. They were just exercising their authority to prevent certain products from being exported by bad faith actors.

They may not have fully understood, or were being lax in, what they were proposing. But then it was all quickly sorted. No harm done.

No Nordies were harmed in the making of this post

Sure, a bunch of glorified civil servants in Brussels have the power to impose a hard border on this Island.

Sure, they unilateraly excercised that power but that's okay because they only did it through gross incompetence to cover their previous gross incompetence on vaccines

And anyway, they rolled it back when Michael asked them pretty please nicely because thats all he actually can do. He's only the Taoiseach.

No harm done, nothing to see, move along

Doctor Roast

Bambi wrote: »

Sure, a bunch of glorified civil servants in Brussels have the power to impose a hard border on this Island.

Sure, they unilateraly excercised that power but that's okay because they only did it through gross incompetence to cover their previous gross incompetence on vaccines

And anyway, they rolled it back when Michael asked them pretty please nicely because thats all he actually can do. He's only the Taoiseach.

No harm done, nothing to see, move along

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KP-718g1Hto

FrancieBrady

Bambi wrote: »

Sure, a bunch of glorified civil servants in Brussels have the power to impose a hard border on this Island.

Sure, they unilateraly excercised that power but that's okay because they only did it through gross incompetence to cover their previous gross incompetence on vaccines

And anyway, they rolled it back when Michael asked them pretty please nicely because thats all he actually can do. He's only the Taoiseach.

No harm done, nothing to see, move along

What harm was done? I can see immediate plusses like making Sammy Wilson sound a bigger hypocrite than he already is.

Kermit.de.frog

Donald Trump wrote: »

Did you not read the story? No border was being changed. They were just exercising their authority to prevent certain products from being exported by bad faith actors.

They may not have fully understood, or were being lax in, what they were proposing. But then it was all quickly sorted. No harm done.

No Nordies were harmed in the making of this post

Yes but they have given sucker to unionists and brexiters who want the British government to do the same thing which would result in the need for a physical border on this island overnight.

That's the problem they have needlessly propelled.

Donald Trump

Bambi wrote: »

Sure, a bunch of glorified civil servants in Brussels have the power to impose a hard border on this Island.

Sure, they unilateraly excercised that power but that's okay because they only did it through gross incompetence to cover their previous gross incompetence on vaccines

And anyway, they rolled it back when Michael asked them pretty please nicely because thats all he actually can do. He's only the Taoiseach.

No harm done, nothing to see, move along

You're the one imagining things and then trying to argue against the thing you are imagining. I fail to see what benefit it is to you to do that

Imreoir2

Bambi wrote: »

Civil servants dont have the power to change another countrys border for them.

In the EU we have "civil servants" who have been given executive power.

EU Comissioners are not Civil Servants.

McGiver

Bambi wrote:

Sure, a bunch of glorified civil servants in Brussels have the power to impose a hard border on this Island.

No they do not.

Anything the Commission does has to be agreed by the Council, which is the actual EU executive. Typically unanimously or by a qualified majority.

You know the Council where the Taioseach sits and has a vote or power of veto.

Dyr

Imreoir2 wrote: »

EU Comissioners are not Civil Servants.

You might need to tell that to the poster who claimed this was all just "civil servants" that made a mistake.

Need to keep up.

Dyr

McGiver wrote: »

No they do not.

Anything the Commission does has to be agreed by the Council, which is the actual EU executive. Typically unanimously or by a qualified majority.

You know the Council where the Taioseach sits and has a vote or power of veto.

So the Council and the Taoiseach approved the triggering of Article 16? That's what you're saying, yeah?

McGiver

Bambi wrote:

So the Council and the Taoiseach approved the triggering of Article 16? That's what you're saying, yeah?

Nothing has been triggered.

A measure was proposed, the text of which was drafted by the Commission. And immediately amended on the request of the member state(s).

Once the text is final it will have to be approved by the Council and most likely the Parliament too before being adopted.

The Commission proposes and drafts measures and legislation, the Council and the Parliament scrutinise and approve / reject.

Melanchthon

Bambi wrote: »

So the Council and the Taoiseach approved the triggering of Article 16? That's what you're saying, yeah?

Don't be suprised with that poster, they just lie to push their agenda. For example

They said that the Novaxax was not being negotiated and just needed to be signed of on.
Lie

https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-germany-officials/eu-in-talks-with-novavax-on-vaccine-purchases-germany-idUSS8N28T05H

They said J&J and Curevac were ahead of Novaxax in their trials.
Lie- Novaxax had released their trial data the day before, and when they posted J&J had not released their trial, Curevac have not completed their trial.

They kept pushing the line that the EU had reached an agreement with Astra Zeneca in June.
Lie- we literally have a letter from the German health minister that this is not the case.

https://m.bild.de/politik/ausland/politik-inland/with-this-letter-by-jens-spahn-the-vaccine-disaster-in-the-eu-begann-74736986.bildMobile.html###wt_ref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bing.com%2F&wt_t=1612023095424

Imreoir2

Bambi wrote: »

You might need to tell that to the poster who claimed this was all just "civil servants" that made a mistake.

Need to keep up.

Clearly someone overstepped the mark, but that is a different matter to your claim that Civil Servants have been given executive powers. That is not the case, EU Comissioners are not Civil Servants.

McGiver

Melanchthon wrote:

Don't be suprised with that poster, they just lie to push their agenda. For example

Agenda? Like what? Correcting incorrect statements?
Don't accuse others of lying if you didn't research or provide the facts.

Melanchthon wrote:

They said that the Novaxax was not being negotiated and just needed to be signed of on. Lie

You are wrong.

100m + 100m possible doses deal was already agreed in December. And as I said, the preliminary agreement had to be signed off by the member states and formally concluded.

https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-eu-novavax-idUSKBN28R1HO
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_20_2305
https://ec.europa.eu/info/live-work-travel-eu/coronavirus-response/public-health_en

The Reuters article you linked talks about the EU formally concluding the existing agreement and asking for additional possible/topup doses. You didn't even read the article or researched the history of the deal.

Formal conclusion of previous agreement/deal is not "negotiating". Not in the sense you are attributing to it i.e. that the EU has not agreed or arranged anything to date or that it delayed something!

Melanchthon wrote:

They said J&J and Curevac were ahead of Novaxax in their trials. Lie- Novaxax had released their trial data the day before, and when they posted J&J had not released their trial, Curevac have not completed their trial.

Wrong again regarding novavax and J&J. Missing key details.

J&J - Global Phase 3 started in September, global trial results results reported yesterday
CureVac - Phase 3 started in December, results are still expected
Novavax - Phase 3 started but only in the UK, US trials started only 28 December, global results are still expected - results from UK trial were released 2 days ago

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/science/coronavirus-vaccine-tracker.html

Novavax is indeed behind the J&J in multi-centre global phase 3 trials. Novavax is borderline ahead in the trials than CureVac but well behind J&J.

So at best I can say I was not 100% correct with CureVac but I was right with J&J.

Important to note that J&J and CureVac are a larger part in the EU vaccine portfolio than Novavax (800M vs 200M), so I am not sure what your point with novavax exactly was. Probably euro bashing

Melanchthon wrote:

They kept pushing the line that the EU had reached an agreement with Astra Zeneca in June. Lie- we literally have a letter from the German health minister that this is not the case.

You are wrong again.

The EU reached agreement with AZ in June as part of the Vaccine Alliance, which the later EU Commission agreement build upon. EU Advance Purchase Agreements were made with AZ and all other companies in the EU vaccine portfolio in June too.
See the Commission link above.

Faugheen

Doctor Roast wrote: »

Were the Irish government even consulted about the EUs original decision?

It seems more and more we're becoming a mere state.

The fact they backed down after the intervention of both Micheal Martin and Michel Barnier suggests otherwise.

Donald Trump

EU suggested something. Obviously people who weren't 100% up to date with the local implications. When they were told, they quickly fixed it. Is it really that unexpected that some might not have fully appreciated the sensitivities? Who here can explain to me (without copying and pasting from google) the nuances of tension between Wallons vs Flemish for example?

Whereas the DUP, beloved of Brexiteers (while they were useful), are today still bleating on about trying to have the agreement torn up. They live there and are fully aware of the significance of what they try to do. They are still at it.

But sure that will be ignored when it continues to happen and in 5 years some posters on here will still be talking about the minutes back in 2021 when it looked like it might almost be on the EUs cards.

An Claidheamh

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The end result is our country has been left more vulnerable to the whims of a British government in relation to the protocol today than it was yesterday because the moral high ground has been conceded through stupidity (and according to themselves their own ignorance!).

Unbelievable incompetence.

The important thing now is to reign in irresponsible unionist leaders who want to end these arrangements- and who can blame them, they have been presented with the template they needed.

Ugh

What is this nonsense throughout Brexit and moral high ground?

Britain and the unionists are untrustworthy, plain stupid and unreasonable, also extremely hostile to Ireland and progress

No one is suddenly going to change their mind about Britain’s jingoistic attempt at empire 2.0 by upsetting them, DUPers are not going to stop being duped, Irish people are not suddenly going to help Britain undermine our sovereignty and the safety of Irish citizens in the North

The UK can make their own vaccines or let the North integrate into the EU properly

fly_agaric

Donald Trump wrote: »

Whereas the DUP, beloved of Brexiteers (while they were useful), are today still bleating on about trying to have the agreement torn up. They live there and are fully aware of the significance of what they try to do. They are still at it.

Unfortunately that will never stop from the DUP while it (protocol) lasts. [- Don't get me wrong, alternative is much worse...]
It will be a wonderful "wedge" issue to rile up the base, how someone somewhere could not get x from the Mainland without some customs hassle/costs, and had to get it via that Place We Will Not Name down south of the border.
Brexit is like a rotting corpse that is just going to keep leeching poison into the well of relations between Ireland/NI/UK.

francois

It will all be forgotten about in a couple of days.

An Claidheamh

Doctor Roast wrote: »

They were listened to when sh!T hit the fan and they were getting it from all angles, they can't really afford to be creating more EU sceptics, be realistic here the EU is quite willing to throw Ireland under the bus when it suits

“We” Doctor Roast?

Are you sure you’re not posting from Britain?

That you forgot your friends in the North got the famous bus treatment, and were not even consulted by their “United Kingdom” would suggest that you are

Btw, could you tell me why Britain are not providing vaccines for the North?

Why do you need EU help?