Will Britain piss off and get on with Brexit II (mod warning in OP)

ohnonotgmail

RobMc59 wrote: »

According to the Irish examiner and a plethora of media outlets von der layden spoke to the Taoiseach and Johnson.That,combined with the kickback from all quarters resulted in a swift u turn.
Rewriting or airbrushing history doesn't change the facts,whether it's the actions of de valera in ww2 for example or how the EU has treated Ireland and the UK in the last few days.

by "treated" do you mean "took note of what britain and ireland said and reversed a decision when they realised it was a mistake"? would you prefer that the EU just ploughed on regardless?

Melanchthon

Tell me how wrote: »

Just listening to Simon Coveney on Pat Kenny from this morning discussing the A16 issue.
He went through the issue exactly, was very forceful how it shouldn't have happened, how quickly they moved to have it retracted and how he didn't think that it was something which meant heads (possibly up to Van der Leyen as suggested by Pat) over.
He's a very competent politician and seems fully informed and in control of his brief.

Whatever about the arguments about the EU, Brexit, Comission and so on.
The defending of Von Der Leyden is a bit much.

She was seriously unpopular in Germany before this and they were familiar with her. She was known to have a bad management style and so on, whatever about the withdrawal surely people can see that the fact this got published even if it wasn't ratified points too the bad management continuing.
As an aside where was McGuiness in this?

Anyway here is relevant poll, needs Google translate.
https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/ursula-von-der-leyen-so-unbeliebt-wie-nie-spon-umfrage-a-1257568.html

RobMc59

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

by "treated" do you mean "took note of what britain and ireland said and reversed a decision when they realised it was a mistake"? would you prefer that the EU just ploughed on regardless?

Its a refreshing change discussing this with you as you seem to accept the generally accepted chain of events,that both Ireland and the UK were consulted and both expressed concerns about the actions of brussels.

Tell me how

Melanchthon wrote: »

Whatever about the arguments about the EU, Brexit, Comission and so on.
The defending of Von Der Leyden is a bit much.

She was seriously unpopular in Germany before this and they were familiar with her. She was known to have a bad management style and so on, whatever about the withdrawal surely people can see that the fact this got published even if it wasn't ratified points too the bad management continuing.
As an aside where was McGuiness in this?

Anyway here is relevant poll, needs Google translate.
https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/ursula-von-der-leyen-so-unbeliebt-wie-nie-spon-umfrage-a-1257568.html

Having listened to Coveney, I think that while he defended the EU and Von der Leyen, I suspect that he has been very forceful in private to her about the mistakes which were made. He pointed out the absurdity of the Council of Commissioners not even knowing (where McGuiness sits) that this was being done and used the opportunity to talk about Barnier in saying how frustrated he would have been given the 4.5 years spent in trying to ensure the integrity of the North Ireland situation.

I think Coveney recognizes that badmouthing Von der Leyen or giving any credence to a suggestion that her head should role over this would be an overreaction and would make it a bigger stick for the UK Brexiteers to beat the EU with.

Melanchthon

Tell me how wrote: »

I think Coveney recognizes that badmouthing Von der Leyen or giving any credence to a suggestion that her head should role over this would be an overreaction and would make it a bigger stick for the UK Brexiteers to beat the EU with.

Here's the thing though, UK brexiteers don't really matter that much, does it matter that much what the Express or Telegraph says really, their articles get under very online English speaking Europhiles skin but that's a small group (it's important internally to UK, this last month has basically reinforced Borris after a pretty bad time last year but that's different).

Doesn't Von Der Leyen staying on longer term and being insulated completely from a pretty bad screw up, after moving to EU after a series of (at least as perceived by domestic audience) screw ups, just reinforce the negative views about the Comission/EU politico's being untouchable and accountable people who couldn't hack national politics among the more important group, EU citizens.

Edit: I am not multi-lingual so while I dip in and out of the mainland European news services, I don't know for sure that British style eurosceptism and their publications are unimportant in Europe, it does seem like they aren't and that the arguments are different e.g more about the Euro and migration agreements etc.

Tell me how

Melanchthon wrote: »

Doesn't Von Der Leyen staying on longer term and being insulated completely from a pretty bad screw up, after moving to EU after a series of (at least as perceived by domestic audience) screw ups, just reinforce the negative views about the Comission/EU politico's being untouchable and accountable people who couldn't hack national politics among the more important group, EU citizens.

No. I think this is already in the past. And has been since late Friday night. The removal or reprimand of the EU president over this would turn it in to something much bigger than it is.

FrancieBrady

If there was as much outrage about the many mistakes, twists and downright hostile actions of Theresa May and Boris Johnson, Brexit could have been avoided as the majority now seem to realise, would have been a good thing.

Melanchthon

Tell me how wrote: »

No. I think this is already in the past. And has been since late Friday night. The removal or reprimand of the EU president over this would turn it in to something much bigger than it is.

I don't know, like I don't expect her to go for the next three months but she may be on borrowed time. Despite the way some are seeking to portray this as a minor thing(not saying your doing this). it was global news, checked the CNN site at the time and the were running it (not sure about their broadcast), if it had been a mistep in a speach but since the document was published
Anyway what's your solution? Like you say it's in the past but you do not really counter the argument that it does feed into negative perceptions. I while I personally don't think Le Pen will ever get through the 2nd round in France or there will ever be a Frexit, she is polling at 48 to 52% against macron in a hypothetical second round (the cursed 48/52 returns!).

Dyr

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It was triggered but had no effect because we intervened.

Are you proposing we team up with the UK or a 'go it alone' alternative?

There's a fine display of "so what you're saying is" combined with binary thinking. I'm obviously not proposing that as I've never mentioned either. Its a retarded idea.

It would almost be as bad as the EU triggering Article 16 in a tantrum only a few weeks after the Brits had threatened to trigger it themselves, thus making it far easier for the Brits to trigger it in the future.

FrancieBrady

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

So a week later let’s recap where we actually are

AZ have been slapped hard for messing about and mysteriously found extra supplies

Pfizer gets a pr bonus and produce extra 75mil dozes faster

UK tabloids lose their collective **** but no one outside UK cares anymore

EU has shown it’s willing to use not just carrots but sticks to get this pandemic resolved faster

UK govt jumping up and in joy as with help of tabloids the news cycle moved on from their disastrous handling of Covid while trying claim credit for NHSs good work

Brexiteers cream themselves while forgetting that DUP not only called for article 16 but wanted whole deal scrapped

I miss anything?

The Trade Deal...you forgot the Trade Deal on the other side of the world.

FrancieBrady

Bambi wrote: »

There's a fine display of "so what you're saying is" combined with binary thinking. I'm obviously not proposing that as I've never mentioned either. Its a retarded idea.

It would almost be as bad as the EU triggering Article 16 in a tantrum only a few weeks after the Brits had threatened to trigger it themselves, thus making it far easier for the Brits to trigger it in the future.

The British can only trigger it if it is warranted, and who precisely would care all that much if they did?

It's not as if in the 4 years of negotiations they came up with anything better.

So having no alternative for Ireland you just want to whinge about the EU? Is that it?

ambro25

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

So a week later let’s recap where we actually are

AZ have been slapped hard for messing about and mysteriously found extra supplies

Pfizer gets a pr bonus and produce extra 75mil dozes faster

UK tabloids lose their collective **** but no one outside UK cares anymore

EU has shown it’s willing to use not just carrots but sticks to get this pandemic resolved faster

UK govt jumping up and in joy as with help of tabloids the news cycle moved on from their disastrous handling of Covid while trying claim credit for NHSs good work

Brexiteers cream themselves while forgetting that DUP not only called for article 16 but wanted whole deal scrapped

I miss anything?

The Himalaya of s**t that the Leavers seem to have lost collectively over this affair. Come on, you have to give it to them, they piled on real fast.

The German car manufacturers were this >< close to ditch the EU and come to the rescue again, you could just about smell their exhaust fumes, and Macron might as well have thrown the campaigning towel in before it even starts

fly_agaric

Melanchthon wrote: »

I don't know, like I don't expect her to go for the next three months but she may be on borrowed time. Despite the way some are seeking to portray this as a minor thing(not saying your doing this). it was global news, checked the CNN site at the time and the were running it (not sure about their broadcast), if it had been a mistep in a speach but since the document was published

I think the pandemic and vaccine procurement is the bigger issue for Commission than the bad mis-step with NI protocol.
I think it genuinely was a serious error made by a group of people who are under the gun and quite panicked or angry.

It is bad, but throwing the EU Commission into chaos for this mistake, generating a political crisis and leadership vacuum that could go on for months while a very serious situation involving death & suffering for many people in the EU is occurring, would be far more damaging IMO.
Would seem to be self indulgent to me in a way and likely to do far more damage to public perceptions of the EU.

If there are more problems with the rest of the EU's vaccine orders (which are much bigger than AstraZeneca one) e.g. if some of the other big Pharma companies vastly under-deliver on their contracts while exporting millions more vaccine doses out of their plants located in the EU, making the EU look like complete naifs [vs US or UK hoarding all vaccine manufactured on home soil for their population's use] then she might be forced out somehow.

It would suggest something went badly wrong with the EU procurement process & contracts, which ultimately the Commission and Von Der Leyen will not escape blame for.

Sorry - all those (scattered) thoughts about it are a bit irrelevant to Brexit/thread subject really.

Seth Brundle

RobMc59 wrote: »

Rewriting or airbrushing history doesn't change the facts,whether it's the actions of de valera in ww2 for example or how the EU has treated Ireland and the UK in the last few days.

Firstly, the EU didn't treat Ireland badly. They made a mistake with regard to the border and made a swift u-turn at the Irish Government's request. This shows that the Irish government is not subservient to the EU but (as we've said all along) is part of the EU and the EU listens.
However, we are in this situation purely because our closest neighbour went ahead with a policy that damages their own ecomomy and credibility but also has an impact on us. They did not care about us when they came up with the idea and all along since the referendum, they have treated Ireland badly. Very badly!

You are the one trying to rewrite history Rob and this has been even more evident over the last few days.

Yeah Rob's masking has been slipping down towards his knees at this stage.

RobMc59

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yeah Rob's masking has been slipping down towards his knees at this stage.

I disagree,I've never claimed to agree with everything brussels has to say.
This has resulted in the forum standard 'brexiteer'tag.
Anyway, I agree the phantom article 16 incident should be consigned to the archives and only wheeled out when some posters start preaching about the UK'S occasional faux pas.

Imreoir2

RobMc59 wrote: »

Anyway, I agree the phantom article 16 incident should be consigned to the archives and only wheeled out when some posters start preaching about the UK'S occasional faux pas.

That seems fair, but only for those rarest of occasions where the UK admits its mistake and swiftly changes course.

MrMusician18

[QUOTE=fly_agaric;116132969]I think the pandemic and vaccine procurement is the bigger issue for Commission than the bad mis-step with NI protocol.
I think it genuinely was a serious error made by a group of people who are under the gun and quite panicked or angry.

It is bad, but throwing the EU Commission into chaos for this mistake, generating a political crisis and leadership vacuum that could go on for months while a very serious situation involving death & suffering for many people in the EU is occurring, would be far more damaging IMO.
Would seem to be self indulgent to me in a way and likely to do far more damage to public perceptions of the EU.

If there are more problems with the rest of the EU's vaccine orders (which are much bigger than AstraZeneca one) e.g. if some of the other big Pharma companies vastly under-deliver on their contracts while exporting millions more vaccine doses out of their plants located in the EU, making the EU look like complete naifs [vs US or UK hoarding all vaccine manufactured on home soil for their population's use] then she might be forced out somehow.

It would suggest something went badly wrong with the EU procurement process & contracts, which ultimately the Commission and Von Der Leyen will not escape blame for.

Sorry - all those (scattered) thoughts about it are a bit irrelevant to Brexit/thread subject really.[/QUOTE]

This. It's vaccine procurement that has UvdL under real pressure, not this art. 16 stuff.

Art.16 was a mistake, but art least they admitted it was an error and rolled back on it within hours. How long did it take the UK to route back on the internal market bill?

The hypocrisy is something else.

McGiver

RobMc59 wrote:

I'm not sure how you can present being disrespected by brussels as being good for Ireland.

This Express/Farage/Brexidiot/Russian grade propaganda nonsense. It's a lie. Made up. Nonsense. And amounts to nothing else than trolling at this stage.

WTF are you talking about disrespected???

The Northern Irish protocol is a part of an internartional treaty (the Withdrawal Agreement) between the UK and the EU.

There are provisions in the WA how the article 16 can be invoked and its invocation approved by the Committee comprised of the representatives from the EU 27 and UK. And that includes emergency invocation and ex-post approval by the Committee in emergency situations.

The EU made an error under pressure of the events. Irish Taioseach called to the Commission President. The error was rectified within hours. The Commission President publicly said it was an error and apologised.

Nobody was disrespected. The law was followed. Ireland exercised its power/rights as the member state of the EU.

The "disrespect" doesn't exist - it only exists as in warped or wicked Brexiters' heads.

McGiver

Melanchthon wrote:

She was seriously unpopular in Germany before this and they were familiar with her. She was known to have a bad management style and so on, whatever about the withdrawal surely people can see that the fact this got published even if it wasn't ratified points too the bad management continuing. As an aside where was McGuiness in this?

Irrelevant. Totally.

More unrelated eurosceptic muck just for the sake of throwing muck and poisoning the debate.

Also, it's incorrect. Read the Northern Irish protocol. It was done fully on legally.

Leroy42

I think the big lesson, although I'm surprised anyone still needs to learn it, for the EU Art 16 debacle is just how duplicitous the UK are.

They are perfectly happy to talk out of both sides of their mouth, everything they do is perfectly reasonable and justified and everyone else is out to get them.

Everyone needs to be perfect at all times, whiter than white, because any slip up will be used as an excuse for the UK to take the moral high ground.

It appears that voting for something, long been the 1st demand from Brexiteers, is no longer important and the EU deal is now merely a suggestion.

Gove looking for an extension, one they refused to look for previously.

At this stage the EU should offer 1 solution. Extend the transition by 2 years, pay into EU budget, reinstate FoM, and open up export of Covid drugs.

That or jog on.

Peregrinus

Leroy42 wrote: »

I think the big lesson, although I'm surprised anyone still needs to learn it, for the EU Art 16 debacle is just how duplicitous the UK are.

They are perfectly happy to talk out of both sides of their mouth, everything they do is perfectly reasonable and justified and everyone else is out to get them.

Everyone needs to be perfect at all times, whiter than white, because any slip up will be used as an excuse for the UK to take the moral high ground.

It appears that voting for something, long been the 1st demand from Brexiteers, is no longer important and the EU deal is now merely a suggestion.

Gove looking for an extension, one they refused to look for previously.

At this stage the EU should offer 1 solution. Extend the transition by 2 years, pay into EU budget, reinstate FoM, and open up export of Covid drugs.

That or jog on.

Transition can't be extended; it has already ended. And the EU has no interest in reinstating it.

Leroy42

Peregrinus wrote: »

Transition can't be extended; it has already ended. And the EU has no interest in reinstating it.

But Gove is asking for a partial transition by the back door.

I understand that ir wouldn't technically be a transition, but it reality it would be.

The EU gave the UK every opportunity during the talks to sort these issues out and the UK felt it made more sense to have a big bang exit.

And now they want to do a series of side deals.

My point is that the EU should, by now, have learnt that no amount of understanding and cooperation will be enough for the UK. Essentially the UK are still back in 2016, wanting all the benefits of membership and none of the costs.

This is a UK problem, let them undertake whatever investment and systems they need to do to make it work.

Peregrinus

Leroy42 wrote: »

But Gove is asking for a partial transition by the back door.

I understand that ir wouldn't technically be a transition, but it reality it would be.

No, it wouldn't.

Transition was for the whole UK. As I understand it, what Gove is looking for relates only to aspects of the NI Protocol, and it was always understood that the operation of the NI Protocol was open to variation as it went along - a mechanims for managing that is built into the Protocol, and Gove is seeking to make use of that mechanism.

6541

Great times for anyone interested in politics. I am going to ask for ye to conjure up your inner Nostradamus. What is your bet ? What will happen here ? Will the UK cave into Unionist pressure and amend or invoke Article 16 ? Will the EU just go whatever ? Place your bets !

Peregrinus

6541 wrote: »

Great times for anyone interested in politics. I am going to ask for ye to conjure up your inner Nostradamus. What is your bet ? What will happen here ? Will the UK cave into Unionist pressure and amend or invoke Article 16 ? Will the EU just go whatever ? Place your bets !

The UK would rather not invoke Art 16. They'd rather try and solve problems by getting the EU to agree to tweaks in the operation of the Protocol. The EU might be slightly more open to this as a consequence of the past few days' shenanigans.

Couple of points about Art 16:

It's not a magic bullet. It will never make the NI Protocol go away. It allows temporary departures from specified provisions of the Protocol to deal with an emergency. If either side invokes Art 16 they have to notify the committee of exactly what they are doing and why, and then the Committee tries to find a way back to full observance of the Protocol. Perhaps they find a workaround which fixes the problem without needing to disapply any aspect of the Protocol; perhaps they agree to deal with the problem by resming normal service when the emergency abates; perhaps they do something else. But if you're fundamentally unhappy about the Protocol, Art 16 is not much use to you; it's not designed to nullify the protocol.

gmisk

My other half called into marks and spencers this morning in liffey valley....once again most the shelves absolutely empty...

Clowns they must be losing a fortune in revenue

Sweet.Science

Although i'm not hugely surprised the EU really showed their true colours over the last week

It's sad we dont really have a choice but be lead by them

Seth Brundle

Sweet.Science wrote: »

Although i'm not hugely surprised the EU really showed their true colours over the last week

Why? Because they made a mistake and within hours made a complete u-turn having listened to the Irish concerns?
Is that not a good thing?

Sweet.Science wrote: »

It's sad we dont really have a choice but be lead by them

But you do have a choice. You can head to Britain.

Leroy42

Sweet.Science wrote: »

Although i'm not hugely surprised the EU really showed their true colours over the last week

It's sad we dont really have a choice but be lead by them

And what are their true colours, that up until last week they had expertly covered?