Will Britain piss off and get on with Brexit II (mod warning in OP)

Sweet.Science

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Why? Because they made a mistake and within hours made a complete u-turn having listened to the Irish concerns?
Is that not a good thing?

But you do have a choice. You can head to Britain.

Made a mistake ? Jesus . A little bit of stockholm syndrome going on . Ireland means nothing to the EU. It can be used for their own ego and interests as seen the last few days

Leroy42

Sweet.Science wrote: »

Made a mistake ? Jesus . A little bit of stockholm syndrome going on . Ireland means nothing to the EU. It can be used for their own ego and interests as seen the last few days

Did Johnson make a mistake stating that he would have no hesitation in triggering Art 16 only two weeks ago?

You seem focused on the use of the word mistake, What would you call it?

And now that it has happened, what do you think should happen?

FrancieBrady

Sweet.Science wrote: »

Made a mistake ? Jesus . A little bit of stockholm syndrome going on . Ireland means nothing to the EU. It can be used for their own ego and interests as seen the last few days

The easy thing for the rest of the EU was to take the easy way out here 4 years ago.

It hasn't happened. Did you ever wonder why?

Sweet.Science

Leroy42 wrote: »

Did Johnson make a mistake stating that he would have no hesitation in triggering Art 16 only two weeks ago?

You seem focused on the use of the word mistake, What would you call it?

And now that it has happened, what do you think should happen?

Boris is another clown . Ireland just a pawn in his game of power aswel .

Leroy42

Sweet.Science wrote: »

Boris is another clown . Ireland just a pawn in his game of power aswel .

Didn't even attempt to answer the question?

If you don't consider it a mistake, then what do you consider it?

Do you consider than Johnson did the same?

What to do think the reprecussion of the 'mistake' should be?

As for Ireland being a pawn, seems really did since Ireland basically rang up the EU and told them to cancel their plans. Or maybe you meant pawn in that they have a say in everything?

GarySmith

As earlier some years ago Scotland rejected the chance to be a country which will be an independent country and a country is called some people from Scotland. May be for an Independent Nation State Scottish people will soon vote for themselves. Yes, it might be possible they might be taken seriously once they do so. Not sure if Northern Ireland will vote to leave the UK soon or may some time or never time will say. True respected the people’s democracy and it’s democracy’s win.

ohnonotgmail

GarySmith wrote: »

As earlier some years ago Scotland rejected the chance to be a country which will be an independent country and a country is called some people from Scotland. May be for an Independent Nation State Scottish people will soon vote for themselves. Yes, it might be possible they might be taken seriously once they do so. Not sure if Northern Ireland will vote to leave the UK soon or may some time or never time will say. True respected the people’s democracy and it’s democracy’s win.

am i having a stroke or is that just really hard to read?

Sweet.Science

Leroy42 wrote: »

Didn't even attempt to answer the question?

If you don't consider it a mistake, then what do you consider it?

Do you consider than Johnson did the same?

What to do think the reprecussion of the 'mistake' should be?

As for Ireland being a pawn, seems really did since Ireland basically rang up the EU and told them to cancel their plans. Or maybe you meant pawn in that they have a say in everything?

We spent 800 years trying to be our own country only to give it all up . Sad really .

Leroy42

Sweet.Science wrote: »

We spent 800 years trying to be our own country only to give it all up . Sad really .

Ok, so. you have nothing but bland statements.

no actual ideas of your own.

fly_agaric

Sweet.Science wrote: »

Ireland means nothing to the EU. It can be used for their own ego and interests as seen the last few days
...We spent 800 years trying to be our own country only to give it all up . Sad really .

What's happened over last 4 years holds greater weight than 1 mistake that was reversed after a few hours.

The UKs Brexit "solution" for the problem of NI was the supposedly invisible and painless Techno land border (anyone remember that lie with the speed of the news cycle nowdays?..).

The reason that did not happen is down to the EU giving our interests an important place in the negotiations with the UK.

Otherwise, given the burn all bridges Brexit the UK is implementing the only choice before us to maintain the NI border as is (which seems to be an Irish political goal), is to exit the EU along with the UK just as we entered EEC with them in the 70s.

In reality the EU has protected our ability to be "our own country" - trying to help us keep a status quo we were quite happy with in the face of the UK govt. working to turn over the table and change everything over our heads as they pursue their own selfish interests.

Sweet.Science

fly_agaric wrote: »

What's happened over last 4 years holds greater weight than 1 mistake that was reversed after a few hours.

The UKs Brexit "solution" for the problem of NI was the supposedly invisible and painless Techno land border (anyone remember that lie with the speed of the news cycle nowdays?..).

The reason that did not happen is down to the EU giving our interests an important place in the negotiations with the UK.

Otherwise, given the burn all bridges Brexit the UK is implementing the only choice before us to maintain the NI border as is (which seems to be an Irish political goal), is to exit the EU along with the UK just as we entered EEC with them in the 70s.

In reality the EU has protected our ability to be "our own country" - trying to help us keep a status quo we were quite happy with in the face of the UK govt. working to turn over the table and change everything over our heads as they pursue their own selfish interests.

The only reason the EU cared about us was the fear we would also leave . If even one other country joined the UK in leaving the EU that would be the beginning of the end .

They were looking after their own interests by looking after Irelands

Lets get real here. The first chance they got to throw Ireland to the wolves they did

ohnonotgmail

Sweet.Science wrote: »

The only reason the EU cared about us was the fear we would also leave . If even one other country joined the UK in leaving the EU that would be the beginning of the end .

They were looking after their own interests by looking after Irelands

Lets get real here. The first chance they got to throw Ireland to the wolves they did

There was never any danger of us leaving. We're not that dumb.

Junkyard Tom

I'm glad people in the South are getting a crash course in how Unionist politics operates in the north. I hope it helps people realise just what our fellow countrymen and countrywomen in the north have been up against for 100 years.

FrancieBrady

Sweet.Science wrote: »

The only reason the EU cared about us was the fear we would also leave . If even one other country joined the UK in leaving the EU that would be the beginning of the end .

They were looking after their own interests by looking after Irelands

Lets get real here. The first chance they got to throw Ireland to the wolves they did

I thought the UK leaving was the beginning of the end? :D

BTW, WE are the EU, there is no sinister 'other' EU out there.

fly_agaric

Sweet.Science wrote: »

The only reason the EU cared about us was the fear we would also leave . If even one other country joined the UK in leaving the EU that would be the beginning of the end .

They were looking after their own interests by looking after Irelands

Lets get real here

Yes, "they" were looking after their own interests by considering ours because we are a member...

Ireland leaving too would have been bad for the EU, but I hate to break it to you - it would not have been the "beginning of the end".

It would have been Ireland doing something completely self destructive + resuming it's "true" place in the world (again) as a minor English speaking appendage of the UK (I'm sure that's how many in the UK govt. view us anyway).

It would have had no long term effect whatsoever on the policies/politics of any other EU countries IMO.

ancapailldorcha

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I'm glad people in the South are getting a crash course in how Unionist politics operates in the north. I hope it helps people realise just what our fellow countrymen and countrywomen in the north have been up against for 100 years.

There are those of us who would have liked Unionism to evolve and stand for a little more than flegs, marches and demonising Nationalists and LGBT people.

Alas...

Junkyard Tom

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

There are those of us who would have liked Unionism to evolve and stand for a little more than flegs, marches and demonising Nationalists and LGBT people.

Alas...

Fair point.

I guess I should have focused on DUP sorts.

FrancieBrady

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Fair point.

I guess I should have said political Unionism rather than just 'Unionists'.

Political Unionism is fracturing in front of us because the UK itself is fracturing. It's what happens.

ancapailldorcha

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Political Unionism is fracturing in front of us because the UK itself is fracturing. It's what happens.

I disagree.

It's disintegrating because its demographic is shrinking. Rather than trying to grow the demographic for the future, they entrenched themselves and gerrymandered. They chose the six counties to ensure their hegemony but they never bothered to actually ensure it for generations to come.

Now we're here. They did a deal with May and then flipped when they couldn't stand to have close alignment with the EU even though that would maintain continuity and prevent NI's fragile economy from taking a hit.

May, for all her flaws was a genuine Unionist. The mainland doesn't have many who actually care about the Union. Now they have to deal with Johnson.

Junkyard Tom

It'll be interesting to see how much of a bounce Alliance will get from pro-EU unionists.

ancapailldorcha

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

It'll be interesting to see how much of a bounce Alliance will get from pro-EU unionists.

I hope so. I think that's the party I'd vote for if I still lived in NI.

RobMc59

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

There are those of us who would have liked Unionism to evolve and stand for a little more than flegs, marches and demonising Nationalists and LGBT people.

Alas...

The majority of British people who want the Union to continue aren't interested in flags,marching or picking on people because of their religious or sexual orientation.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

The majority of British people who want the Union to continue aren't interested in flags,marching or picking on people because of their religious or sexual orientation.

This is the Union that only introduced the Act Of Succession in 2015 to stop discrimination against Roman Catholics.

A 'tolerant society just because we say it is' doesn't stand up to scrutiny Rob..

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

This is the Union that only introduced the Act Of Succession in 2015 to stop discrimination against Roman Catholics.

A 'tolerant society just because we say it is' doesn't stand up to scrutiny Rob..

Francie,I have no particular interest in a person's religious beliefs and wonder why you,who are constantly telling us how you couldn't care less keep banging on about religion and your fondness for pointing the finger and labelling people.

Leroy42

RobMc59 wrote: »

The majority of British people who want the Union to continue aren't interested in flags,marching or picking on people because of their religious or sexual orientation.

I would take that as being true, certainly any of them that I know would be very much like that.

However, their government is a reflection of society, and a major theme running throughout the Brexit debate, and still very much a red hit issue, is immigration.

And fundamentally Brexit boils down to the UK like liking having to share.

Unfortunately, either by reality of by dint of their electoral system, the UK is currently very much an intolerant country.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

Francie,I have no particular interest in a person's religious beliefs and wonder why you,who are constantly telling us how you couldn't care less keep banging on about religion and your fondness for pointing the finger and labelling people.

I am disputing the 'not caring' label you stuck on the UK by showing you they did care up until vety recently.

RobMc59

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Right, they prefer waving flags at marching royals and picking on some them because of a marriage to a ... gasp American of a slightly wrong shade

Unless you're squeaky clean yourself you shouldn't point the finger..
"Ian Wright: Irish teenager Patrick O'Brien given probation over racist abuse - BBC Sport" https://www-bbc-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.bbc.com/sport/amp/football/55916729?amp_gsa=1&amp_js_v=a6&usqp=mq331AQHKAFQArABIA%3D%3D#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=16123702312735&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com

Leroy42

RobMc59 wrote: »

Unless you're squeaky clean yourself you shouldn't point the finger..
"Ian Wright: Irish teenager Patrick O'Brien given probation over racist abuse - BBC Sport" https://www-bbc-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.bbc.com/sport/amp/football/55916729?amp_gsa=1&amp_js_v=a6&usqp=mq331AQHKAFQArABIA%3D%3D#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=16123702312735&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com

Rob, you keep trying to make this something individual. Of course, there are very nice, tolerant, kind people in every country. Just as some people as criminals, crazy, evil etc.

The point is not that Anto or Jacinta or Nigel or Joan or individually racist or intolerant, it is the country as a whole. I'm sure you could find plenty of people in Nazi Germany that had no issues with Jewish people (including the Jewish themselves) but as a nation that is something that they were, at the time, taken as believing in. Collectively.

Brexit itself is a very clear signal of intolerance, a wish to return back to the old ways, the take a step back from inclusion. On top of that, it wasn't even tried to be hidden that foreigners are blamed for just about every ill that befalls UK.

Even recently the sight of a few dingys with immigrants crossing the channel was enough to have the Foeign Secretary openly discuss placing barriers in the English channel.

I don't believe that the majority of the UK think that foreigners are a big problem but there is certainly enough people that have made enough noise to make the politicians feel empowered that this is a vote winner.

Imreoir2

RobMc59 wrote: »

The majority of British people who want the Union to continue aren't interested in flags,marching or picking on people because of their religious or sexual orientation.

Perhaps, but the opinions of those on the "mainland" in relation to the continued membership of NI in the Union are not all that relevant.

Unionists in NI have, in their wisdom, mainly put their support behind parties that are interested in flags, marching, and picking on people due to their religious and sexual orientation. This choice may not ultimatly prove the best for the Union's longevity.

Kermit.de.frog

The single market has strict rules that must be protected. They won't make any exception for fear others with borders will want the same as well as impacts on trade deals with other parties.

So what the EU should do is simplify what can be simplified in the checks and extend some grace periods.

Beyond that the EU should tell the British government that the entire trade deal will lapse if they fail to stand by British government commitments and implement the protocol in full.