Will Britain piss off and get on with Brexit II (mod warning in OP)

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

UK govt is gonna talk the talk and get some tweaks and then we carry on as we were.

Thanks francie,I didn't know about the petition until you posted about it, anyway I've just signed it.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

Thanks francie,I didn't know about the petition until you posted about it, anyway I've just signed it.

I was wondering why the white flags appeared in Brussels Rob...well done!

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I was wondering why the white flags appeared in Brussels Rob...well done!

I did notice whilst searching the petition that Ursula von der layden appears to be making some very conciliatory noises regarding NI..

Leroy42

RobMc59 wrote: »

I did notice whilst searching the petition that Ursula von der layden appears to be making some very conciliatory noises regarding NI..

The EU have been making conciliatory noises regarding NI since the whole Brexit disaster happened. Only for the EU, NI would be even worse off.

What has Johnson the UK done n conciliatory terms regarding NI? They lied to them, threw them under a bus and now are making more promises they have no ability to deliver on.

NI voted to stay in the EU. It seems that the reality of Brexit means that there really should be another vote, at least in NI given that what the UK promises they clearly have no delivered on.

Your anger is completely directed at the wrong direction.

remember, the EU didn't force the brave Johnson to sign anything. He sold the WA are an extraordinary achievement, and landed a massive majority off the back of it.

He then rushed through the EU trade deal, with little or no scrutiny, but with plenty of fanfare.

I am unsure why you keep bleating on about the EU in all of this as if they did something. At best (or worst I guess) they pulled the wool over Johnson and got a deal that the UK should never have signed up to.

But whose fault is that and why are you not signing a petition for Johnson and his government to resign rather than a petition for a foreign entity to 'do something'.

Few questions.

What do you want them to do?
How to you think they can do it?
Why do you think they should do anything?

First Up

Leroy42 wrote:

The EU have been making conciliatory noises regarding NI since the whole Brexit disaster happened. Only for the EU, NI would be even worse off.

I'd call it pragmatic more than conciliatory. When you have 27 countries as varied as Germany and Romania in the same bloc, you have to be realistic about what will work.

The EU's only impenetrable red line is the integrity of the Single Market. That's what the N.I protocol was designed to protect and if the UK can't manage its side of that arrangement, the EU will do it another way.

Some British companies have not (yet) adapted to treating N.I as an external market. It really is their problem to sort but the EU will be reasonable about keeping shelves stocked in Belfast and Derry.

That might include easing some demands on what is clearly "local" trade. That already happens on the EU's eastern borders - for example between Bosnia and Croatia (that used to be part of the same country.) But it won't open a back door into the continental EU.

It will probably mean some extra checks and arrangements at Irish ferry ports but contingency plans for that had already been prepared before Boris and his team caved in on Christmas Eve.

Commercial traffic will be screened electronically and UK registered trucks might have their own version of a Farage garage near Dublin Airport in which to reflect on their new found liberty, while waiting for the evil EU to let them in.

fash

loughside wrote: »

Any readers who have UK friends/relations get them to sign this petition, it`s already reached 100,000 in less than 24 hours, let the unaccountable, unelected EU know there will be no more Irish Sea border in the United Kingdom !!
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/573209

Why do you wish to deny the will of the people of NI - and the will of the (elected) northern Ireland assembly? https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/ni-assembly-approves-motion-calling-on-uk-to-honour-brexit-commitments-1.4360836

Why do you hate democracy?

Peregrinus

loughside wrote: »

Any readers who have UK friends/relations get them to sign this petition, it`s already reached 100,000 in less than 24 hours, let the unaccountable, unelected EU know there will be no more Irish Sea border in the United Kingdom !!
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/573209

"More than 100,000"? Pffft! Johnson has a mandate of nearly 14 million votes to implement the Irish sea border which he negotiated, agreed, signed and put before the people in the Conservative manifesto in the 2019 General Election.

I think it's a bit rich of you to be complaining about other people being unaccountable and unelected. Why cannot you accept the Will of the People?

Lucy8080

Peregrinus wrote: »

"More than 100,000"? Pffft! Johnson has a mandate of nearly 14 million votes to implement the Irish sea border which he negotiated, agreed, signed and put before the people in the Conservative manifesto in the 2019 General Election.

I think it's a bit rich of you to be complaining about other people being unaccountable and unelected. Why cannot you accept the Will of the People?

I might be wrong here, but I am under the impression that "The Queen" herself signed on to this agreement?

Peregrinus

Lucy8080 wrote: »

I might be wrong here, but I am under the impression that "The Queen" herself signed on to this agreement?

She assented to it. Which, being finicky, doesn't involve any actual signature of hers. Plus, she didn't have any choice; she was constitutionally bound to assent to it once Parliament enacted it and her ministers — led by one Johson, B — advised her to assent to it.

The person most responsible for the Irish Sea border - the person who has worked hardest for longest to bring it about; the person who has repeatedly exercised his powers at numerous points in order to make it happen; the person who has railroaded any opposition to it - is Boris Johnson. Complaining to the EU about it is, frankly, bizarre behaviour.

Lucy8080

Peregrinus wrote: »

She assented to it. Which, being finicky, doesn't involve any actual signature of hers. Plus, she didn't have any choice; she was constitutionally bound to assent to it once Parliament enacted it and her ministers — led by one Johson, B — advised her to assent to it.

The person most responsible for the Irish Sea border - the person who has worked hardest for longest to bring it about; the person who has repeatedly exercised his powers at numerous points in order to make it happen; the person who has railroaded any opposition to it - is Boris Johnson. Complaining to the EU about it is, frankly, bizarre behaviour.

And without the assent of the Monarch...What then? That is a rhetorical question! I think you have answered the question in the above post.

And yet, those who are opposing the assent of Her Majesty...., must by default,
find themselves in a somewhat treasonous position?

Peregrinus

Lucy8080 wrote: »

And without the assent of the Monarch...What then? That is a rhetorical question! I think you have answered the question in the above post.

And yet, those who are opposing the assent of Her Majesty...., must by default,
find themselves in a somewhat treasonous position?

No, I don't think so. All Acts of Parliament in the UK are assented to by the monarch. Anyone can advocate the amendment or repeal of any Act of Parliament and, in fact, 99% of Parliament's legislative work consists in doing precisely this. It's not generally considered treasonous.

The real point here is that Boris Johnson negotiated and signed a Withdrawal Agreement that included the NI Protocol; it included the NI Protocol because he and others ensured that the UK repudiated an earlier version which did not involve an Irish Sea border; the Tories then fought a general election on a mandate to implement the Withdrawal Agreement with Irish Sea border; they secured a substantial majority in that election; they then went ahead and ratified the Withdrawal Agrement with Irish Sea border. And now it's in operation.

So people who object to it have no beef with the monarch. But they do have a beef with Boris Johnson; with the Tories; and with Tory supporters and voters, all of whom have acted deliberately so as to bring about the Irish Sea Border. If they are not breaking decisively with the Tories then, in truth, they are not as outraged by the Irish Sea border as they claim to be; they are enabling it, and they know they are.

Lucy8080

Peregrinus wrote: »

No, I don't think so. All Acts of Parliament in the UK are assented to by the monarch. Anyone can advocate the amendment or repeal of any Act of Parliament and, in fact, 99% of Parliament's legislative work consists in doing precisely this. It's not generally considered treasonous.

The real point here is that Boris Johnson negotiated and signed a Withdrawal Agreement that included the NI Protocol; it included the NI Protocol because he and others ensured that the UK repudiated an earlier version which did not involve an Irish Sea border; the Tories then fought a general election on a mandate to implement the Withdrawal Agreement with Irish Sea border; they secured a substantial majority in that election; they then went ahead and ratified the Withdrawal Agrement with Irish Sea border. And now it's in operation.

So people who object to it have no beef with the monarch. But they do have a beef with Boris Johnson; with the Tories; and with Tory supporters and voters, all of whom have acted deliberately so as to bring about the Irish Sea Border. If they are not breaking decisively with the Tories then, in truth, they are not as outraged by the Irish Sea border as they claim to be; they are enabling it, and they know they are.

Would you agree that, if the Monarch refused to sign, all deals where off?

Peregrinus

Lucy8080 wrote: »

Would you agree that, if the Monarch refused to sign, all deals where off?

No, I wouldn't.

If the monarch refuses to sign, you have a constitutional crisis which most likely ends with either (a) a hasty abdication, and the new monarch signs, or (b) a republic. Either way, the deal approved by parliament goes through.

The monarch cannot oppose the will of the elected parliament and governmentm, and survive. They learned that the hard way in the seventeenth century and they are not going to make that mistake again.

Lucy8080

Peregrinus wrote: »

No, I wouldn't.

If the monarch refuses to sign, you have a constitutional crisis which most likely ends with either (a) a hasty abdication, and the new monarch signs, or (b) a republic. Either way, the deal approved by parliament goes through.

The monarch cannot oppose the will of the elected parliament and governmentm, and survive. They learned that the hard way in the seventeenth century and they are not going to make that mistake again.

That must be a sticky wicket for some, I would imagine!

Peregrinus

Lucy8080 wrote: »

That must be a sticky wicket for some, I would imagine!

Not any more. Everybody knows where they stand.

Lucy8080

Peregrinus wrote: »

Not any more. Everybody knows where they stand.

Off you go.

Tell, "Them all ",where "They Stand"!

twinytwo

loughside wrote: »

Any readers who have UK friends/relations get them to sign this petition, it`s already reached 100,000 in less than 24 hours, let the unaccountable, unelected EU know there will be no more Irish Sea border in the United Kingdom !!
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/573209

So you deem it acceptable for there to be no border between NI and the UK but you want one between NI and the ROi.

I'll pass, thanks

FrancieBrady

Peregrinus wrote: »

"More than 100,000"? Pffft! Johnson has a mandate of nearly 14 million votes to implement the Irish sea border which he negotiated, agreed, signed and put before the people in the Conservative manifesto in the 2019 General Election.

I think it's a bit rich of you to be complaining about other people being unaccountable and unelected. Why cannot you accept the Will of the People?

Unionism sickened anybody who objected to Brexit or who tried to mitigate it's effects here with the line, 'but the entire UK voted to Brexit'.
But now when the UK has voted for this deal through their parliamentary representatives they want an exceptional opt out.

Imreoir2

Lucy8080 wrote: »

Off you go.

Tell, "Them all ",where "They Stand"!

Parliament is supreme in the British political system and both Parliament and the Queen are aware of this fact.

Lucy8080

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Parliament is supreme in the British political system and both Parliament and the Queen are aware of this fact.

That awareness must be disturbing, right now, to some who where (always) aware of it, and more disturbing to some who may not have been aware of that position up to this point, but find themselves (now) between a rock and a hard place!

Imreoir2

Lucy8080 wrote: »

That awareness must be disturbing, right now, to some who where (always) aware of it, and more disturbing to some who may not have been aware of that position up to this point, but find themselves (now) between a rock and a hard place!

I'm not sure I follow, it is a very long standing fact of British political life. Why should anyone be especially disturbed by it now any more than they were 50 or 100 years ago?

political analyst

https://www.itv.com/news/2021-02-10/brexit-deal-backfired-on-us-garden-centre-in-northern-ireland-struggles-to-import-soil-from-britain

2 hours and 10 minutes into the report, John Ray mentioned the empty supermarket shelves left by missing British goods.

But there is a grace period in force. So why have those shortages still happened in Northern Ireland?

Peregrinus

political analyst wrote: »

https://www.itv.com/news/2021-02-10/brexit-deal-backfired-on-us-garden-centre-in-northern-ireland-struggles-to-import-soil-from-britain

2 hours and 10 minutes into the report, John Ray mentioned the empty supermarket shelves left by missing British goods.

But there is a grace period in force. So why have those shortages still happened in Northern Ireland?

There isn't a single overarching grace period for the whole NI Protocol; there are a number of selective, focussed grace periods for particular provisions of the Protocol. These were negotiated and agreed in advance; the UK was supposed to be ready to implement the remaining provisions immediately.

So some provisions are already operational. UK businesses exporting to NI should be geared up to comply with those provisions. Turns out they aren't. This is possibly due at least in part to a systematic campaign of disinformation by the UK government which went around assuring everybody that there would be no friction, no forms to fill in, etc,leaving them with the impression that there was nothing major coming that they needed to prepare for. This was done for political reasons.

Leroy42

Yes there are grace periods built in and yet Gove writes a demand letter looking for extensions to those periods. But with no explanation of why, what the UK have done to try to be ready.

EU have written back explaining just that. UK agreed to all this, in many cases actually made a point of turning down alternatives, and that in many cases they haven't even tried to make it work.

And the EU can see that the reason for much of the issues is down to the UK continuing to lie about the reality of the deal. People are shocked and unprepared because the government continually told them that nothing was going to change. Even after the deal was signed Johnson stated, in prepared comments, that there would be no non-tariffs barriers.

Sure you can blame people for not looking deeper into it themselves, but the PM says something you should be able to believe it.

Of course, the narrative now will be that the EU are putting NI at risk because they won't be pragmatic. You certainly won't get the likes of LauraK pointing out that the UK have dropped the ball big time on this and trying to continue to play silly buggers.

Donald Trump

Sure I thought they had all these magical secret technological solutions a couple of years ago? They must have forgotten about those.

Seth Brundle

Kate Hoey obviously wants to the troubles to return...

https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/1359525130859339780

Kermit.de.frog

Unionists playing up the problems I reckon.

Donald Trump

Despite the seriousness of the situation, I must admit to having a laugh at the below

Tell me how

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Kate Hoey obviously wants to the troubles to return...

https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/1359525130859339780

Still can't fathom why someone hasn't asked her or the DUP why they didn't stand up for the people of NI when most of them voted not to leave. (I know she wasn't a NI representative, but still).

The only one who did, Lady Hermon doesn't get the same press coverage as the Brexiteers.

Junkyard Tom

On Question Time there's was a Tory moaning about 'stupid' 'spiteful' EU rules on shellfish (that the UK helped craft while in the EU) while bringing the north into it as a possible hostage to force the EU to kneel before Lord Boris, what a complete and utter bastard.

I remember why I stopped watching Question Time it's essentially a form of psychological self-harming.