Will Britain piss off and get on with Brexit II (mod warning in OP)

Leroy42

Boredstiff666 wrote: »

All of my post was in direct to Leroy 42's and what he said earlier and nothing else. So you are banging along the wrong road.

What exactly do you have a problem with in my post?

J Mysterio

cryptocurrency wrote: »

But you are not a brexiteer. You are 100% behind the insular, socialist and protectionist EU.

I note Chief Secretary to the Treasury Rishi Sunak is now telling Kay Burley that the UK doesn't need a trade deal at all. I'm liking the cut of his gib.

Hahaha. You really are a complete idiot.

Boredstiff666

Leroy42 wrote: »

What exactly do you have a problem with in my post?

Why should we stand idly by while the UK try to take everything we worked so hard so? Why should we allow the UK to benefit from our club when they dislike it so much?

The Uk arent trying to take anything.

We worked so hard?.......You have been receiving their money (and Others) So ireland has only had its hand out benefitting. but you claim you worked hard.

You dont want the UK to benefit.

It is the EU demanding this and that even Leo the other day demanding to be able to fish in UK waters same as the French.

The UK has demanded nowt from the EU or Ireland.

They just want to trade as before and in doing so trade by EU regs with in the EU.

But you see it as taking and benefitting from your hard work.

I think it was others including the Brits who worked hard and had their wages robbed every week to pay for you. But strangely they dont complain like you.

Dytalus

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Thats all nice words and i am sure heart felt but just like Barnier today, it means nothing.

UK has laid out it's stall and it's nothing like the fantasy going on in Michael Barniers head.

Michel Barnier. Is there a particularly reason you seem to have made a point of spelling his name incorrectly by underlining it?

Boredstiff666 wrote: »

All of my post was in direct to Leroy 42's and what he said earlier and nothing else. So you are banging along the wrong road.

You may have been responding to Leroy 42, but you still openly made the statement that the UK was paying into the EU and getting 'nowt for it'. I was addressing that, and I don't see how your factually incorrect bluster magically becomes irrelevant by whatever context spurred you to vomit it out. The UK has benefited for what it put into the EU during its time as a member. That 'debt' has been repaid.

You are refusing to respond to my points and handwaving away a critique of your viewpoint. Either you're unwilling to engage in proper discussion (in which case why are you posting in this thread), or you're unable to counter my comments (in which case the gracious thing to do would be to admit that, or say nothing at all rather than be rudely dismissive).

ancapailldorcha

Boredstiff666 wrote: »

But strangely they dont complain like you.

They've been whinging and moaning non-stop for decades about mostly imaginary problems and a few real ones of their own making.

Leroy42

Boredstiff666 wrote: »

Why should we stand idly by while the UK try to take everything we worked so hard so? Why should we allow the UK to benefit from our club when they dislike it so much?

The Uk arent trying to take anything.

We worked so hard?.......You have been receiving their money (and Others) So ireland has only had its hand out benefitting. but you claim you worked hard.

You dont want the UK to benefit.

It is the EU demanding this and that even Leo the other day demanding to be able to fish in UK waters same as the French.

The UK has demanded nowt from the EU or Ireland.

They just want to trade as before and in doing so trade by EU regs with in the EU.

But you see it as taking and benefitting from your hard work.

I think it was others including the Brits who worked hard and had their wages robbed every week to pay for you. But strangely they dont complain like you.

Ah ok. Well Ireland and the Eu just want to trade as before, with the UK being part of the EU.

The Uk were well aware of what they could lose by leaving, but instead ignored that on the basis of the great untapped potential outside the EU.

It is a bit rich for you to claim that others are being unfair when it is the UK that have changed all the rules but want everything to stay the same.

There is a world of difference between me not wanting the UK to gain a benefit at the EU's expense, and wanting them to do badly. EU is already down because of the UK decision, why should they lose more simply to ease any potential issues for the UK?

They don't want to trade as before, they want to trade based on their own rules. It is a massive difference. One where everybody gets a say and there is a central, unbiased, court to rule over disagreements, and the UK desire to see everything on their terms and depend on them to know what is happening.

Rules of the EU require debate, compromise and voting. The UK are essentially asking that the EU give them full access but at any point they can change anything.

FrancieBrady

Brexiteers, as new negotiations get started, would do well to look at how far the EU moved from it's start point on the WA and how far the UK did.

Will they assess it in terms of reality or the 'great victory' the Daily Mailers portray the WA as?

It's a time to put the propaganda to one side, smell the coffee and be humble, they might therefore rescue something from the flames of their own hubris.

Boredstiff666

Leroy42 wrote: »

Ah ok. Well Ireland and the Eu just want to trade as before, with the UK being part of the EU.

The Uk were well aware of what they could lose by leaving, but instead ignored that on the basis of the great untapped potential outside the EU.

It is a bit rich for you to claim that others are being unfair when it is the UK that have changed all the rules but want everything to stay the same.

There is a world of difference between me not wanting the UK to gain a benefit at the EU's expense, and wanting them to do badly. EU is already down because of the UK decision, why should they lose more simply to ease any potential issues for the UK?

They don't want to trade as before, they want to trade based on their own rules. It is a massive difference. One where everybody gets a say and there is a central, unbiased, court to rule over disagreements, and the UK desire to see everything on their terms and depend on them to know what is happening.

Rules of the EU require debate, compromise and voting. The UK are essentially asking that the EU give them full access but at any point they can change anything.

No your changing it again. Here it is in black and white yet again for you.

The UK has demanded nothing.

The UK was part builder of the EU with politics and hundreds of billions of their money. If they choose to walk away from what they helped build because they dont want to pay for it anymore ...Then that is their choice.

They havent demanded anything to be the same or asked for their money back. In fact it is the EU that says they must pay even more even though they left.

All the UK has said we will trade within a deal.

Ireland has built nothing. It has only taken. If the UK was to get anything. It couldnt be anything Ireland has contributed.

You say that the UK can get nothing and they must suffer for walking away.

What an attitude.........You must keep working and paying for us or you cant have anything.

How long do you think that is going to last.

Even today the first day the EU are demanding and the UK has asked for nothing.

Leroy42

I am not changing anything. You have the attitude that it is all brit bashing and when pointed out it isn't you make up fanciful arguments to convince yourself you are right.

Sure they want a trade deal (whilst at the same time threatening No deal for some reason) and the EU have pointed out, many times, the requirements they need to grant a trade deal. The UK have said repeatedly that they will not agree, and as such the trade deal is in doubt.

I fail to see how you see this as Brit bashing.

I never said they must suffer, just that I don't want us to suffer to ease any suffering they might incur. Please quote where I said that Britain must suffer.

You seem to have it in your head that people are focused on the UK. I am more than happy for the UK to prosper, it will be better for Ireland if they do, but not at the expense of Ireland. Why would I want our FDI to relocate to the UK, what benefit is there is that to me or Ireland. You see that as Brit bashing apparently.

The EU are demanding nothing, they are setting out there requirements. Nobody if forcing the UK to do anything. Nobody forced Johnson to accept the WA. Nobody forced the voters to give the Tories a majority. Nobody forced the MPs to vote through the WA. Nobody forced the UK to leave the EU.

I am tried of your self pity. Do you have any positives to say about BRexit or is it all terrible because other countries are being mean?

ambro25

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Australian style trade agreement. Aussie +++

What's one of them?

Last I checked, the EU has no FTA with Australia.

Boredstiff666

Leroy42 wrote: »

I am not changing anything. You have the attitude that it is all brit bashing and when pointed out it isn't you make up fanciful arguments to convince yourself you are right.

Sure they want a trade deal (whilst at the same time threatening No deal for some reason) and the EU have pointed out, many times, the requirements they need to grant a trade deal. The UK have said repeatedly that they will not agree, and as such the trade deal is in doubt.

I fail to see how you see this as Brit bashing.

I never said they must suffer, just that I don't want us to suffer to ease any suffering they might incur. Please quote where I said that Britain must suffer.

You seem to have it in your head that people are focused on the UK. I am more than happy for the UK to prosper, it will be better for Ireland if they do, but not at the expense of Ireland. Why would I want our FDI to relocate to the UK, what benefit is there is that to me or Ireland. You see that as Brit bashing apparently.

The EU are demanding nothing, they are setting out there requirements. Nobody if forcing the UK to do anything. Nobody forced Johnson to accept the WA. Nobody forced the voters to give the Tories a majority. Nobody forced the MPs to vote through the WA. Nobody forced the UK to leave the EU.

I am tried of your self pity. Do you have any positives to say about BRexit or is it all terrible because other countries are being mean?

I have nothing against arguments. They are just that. Different opinions from people and we must have them or life would be incredibly boring.

But your statement of .......they must not benefit from our club and they must not take anything away from what you worked to build up.

When it was them who worked and paid and built it up whereas Ireland just took and still do.

If Britain did ask for anything they would only be asking for something that they contributed too. Thats only like a divorce where they split the house etc.

The UK hasn't asked for anything.

The EU is getting away scot free but is still asking for more. A bit like the scorned wife who let herself go and got dumped for a more responsive younger model.

Your post was just spite because somebody isnt going to pay for your free ride anymore.

Thats what probably upsets all you anti's. The fact that it may cost you for once now and you don't like it.

Leroy42

Boredstiff666 wrote: »

I have nothing against arguments. They are just that. Different opinions from people and we must have them or life would be incredibly boring.

But your statement of .......they must not benefit from our club and they must not take anything away from what you worked to build up.

When it was them who worked and paid and built it up whereas Ireland just took and still do.

If Britain did ask for anything they would only be asking for something that they contributed too. Thats only like a divorce where they split the house etc.

The UK hasn't asked for anything.

The EU is getting away scot free but is still asking for more. A bit like the scorned wife who let herself go and got dumped for a more responsive younger model.

Your post was just spite because somebody isnt going to pay for your free ride anymore.

Thats what probably upsets all you anti's. The fact that it may cost you for once now and you don't like it.

Do you understand how the 'divorce payment ' was calculated?

So you failed to provide any backup that I wanted them to suffer. Not benefiting is not the same as suffering.

Again, they paid a membership fee, availed of the services. You seem to think they should now have access to those services forever simply because they once paid. Name me a club that operates that way?

Ireland is now a net contributor.

I really think you need to move away from this belief that UK is being put upon and look at the facts rather than the narrative you want.

Again, no spite, I'm happy for the UK to do well, as I already stated, just not at my expense.

As I said before, I'm tired of your childish name calling. Have you anything positive to say about Brexit apart from how mean everyone else is being

Boredstiff666

Leroy42 wrote: »

Do you understand how the 'divorce payment ' was calculated?

So you failed to provide any backup that I wanted them to suffer. Not benefiting is not the same as suffering.

Again, they paid a membership fee, availed of the services. You seem to think they should now have access to those services forever simply because they once paid. Name me a club that operates that way?

Ireland is now a net contributor.

I really think you need to move away from this belief that UK is being put upon and look at the facts rather than the narrative you want.

Again, no spite, I'm happy for the UK to do well, as I already stated, just not at my expense.

As I said before, I'm tired of your childish name calling. Have you anything positive to say about Brexit apart from how mean everyone else is being

Why do you twist it all around as if I am saying that the UK is a victim?

I have just commented on your original post which was terrible. It wouldn't have been so bad if you had a claim. but when it comes to contributing. Its a bit like a night out on a stag night and all you have paid for is a box of matches.

I dont have to provide anything but your 'anti' post which I have quite a few times now even though you keep dancing around it.

threeball

Boredstiff666 wrote: »

I have nothing against arguments. They are just that. Different opinions from people and we must have them or life would be incredibly boring.

But your statement of .......they must not benefit from our club and they must not take anything away from what you worked to build up.

When it was them who worked and paid and built it up whereas Ireland just took and still do.

If Britain did ask for anything they would only be asking for something that they contributed too. Thats only like a divorce where they split the house etc.

The UK hasn't asked for anything.

The EU is getting away scot free but is still asking for more. A bit like the scorned wife who let herself go and got dumped for a more responsive younger model.

Your post was just spite because somebody isnt going to pay for your free ride anymore.

Thats what probably upsets all you anti's. The fact that it may cost you for once now and you don't like it.

Ireland has been a net contributor since the middle of this decade. We'd probably be much further down the road if we didn't have to spend centuries under the boot of your crew so don't be getting upset that a few quid that you pillaged from other countries has made its way back in a roundabout way. You've had plenty of benefits from EU membership also.

So the English lads living in Ireland are back on complaining about Ireland and the E.U. treating England badly, hypocritical much?

DubInMeath

DubInMeath wrote: »

So the English lads living in Ireland are back on complaining about Ireland and the E.U. treating England badly, hypocritical much?

Fervent nationalism needs some sort of base. Without an actual oppressor, a supranational organisation, voluntarily joined and voluntarily left, will have to do.

theological

Dytalus wrote: »

First off, nobody wants them to suffer. The EU wants a trade deal, but quite obviously also want to protect their own industries and economies. So naturally the EU asks for a level playing field, in return for free trade. The UK is equally in their own right to say no. This is how negotiations happen: one side offers one thing, asks for something else in return. The other side counters. Repeat until an agreement is reached on one or the other or something in-between, or nothing happens. The UK is under no obligation to agree to the EU's requests, and likewise the EU is under no obligation to accept the UK's.

But this idea that the EU owes the UK anything? Nope. Absolute garbage. The money the UK paid into the EU was a membership fee, and while they were a member they got enormous benefits: the largest collection of trade agreements in human history; free access to a massive market 450 million people strong; access to EU investment funds, agricultural subsidies, and regional development funds (for all those worryingly underdeveloped regions in the UK which London was not providing).

The UK has gotten the rewards for membership, and is no longer a dues paying member of the club. The EU 'owes' nothing - while they have repeatedly said they want to maintain a close friendship with the UK, the Member States can not do so while sacrificing their own well being. Why should Germany, France, Poland, or Ireland put the UK's wishes first ahead of their own? Especially when you're saying the UK was right to leave so that they could put their own interests first?

Thanks for this post.

A few things. UK standards in the areas cited by the EU are going to remain high. The UK isn't interested in a race to the bottom. The objection to alignment comes from the fact that the EU doesn't expect Canada, South Korea or other countries to align to its rulebook as a condition for free trade. Therefore the UK is perfectly within its right to say it won't also.

I agree with your position on what the EU owes. I think it doesn't owe anything apart from what assets may have been agreed in the withdrawal agreement and obviously the net amount will still be more in the EU's favour.

The point about EU subsidies doesn't make sense because the UK was a net contributor. Meaning it actually receives its own money back. Also on free access to the single market, the reason in part why the UK is leaving is because it wants to build trading relationships with bigger markets.

Padre_Pio

theological wrote: »

Thanks for this post.

A few things. UK standards in the areas cited by the EU are going to remain high. The UK isn't interested in a race to the bottom. The objection to alignment comes from the fact that the EU doesn't expect Canada, South Korea or other countries to align to its rulebook as a condition for free trade. Therefore the UK is perfectly within its right to say it won't also.

Regarding standards, the UK has contributed greatly to many EU standards. It doesn't make sense to say they want less regulations when they themselves made the regulations.

Also, many EU standards are implemented worldwide and are harmonised to US, Canadian, Japanese and Australian standards. Other countries ask for EU standards and maybe a bit extra, China and Brazil for example.

Hamsterchops

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

@ Boredstiff666
If the UK government were to abolish the 23% VAT level in the UK and/or NI.....where do you think they will get the money from to run the NHS and other institutions??? ...

Could there really be two different tax rates within different parts of the UK?

Junkyard Tom

Ireland needs to prepare for no-deal. Britain is heading for a major collision with reality, by the looks of it. In the medium term we need to get the British state out of the six counties and in the longer term we need to quit the farce of 'neutrality' and get fully behind a federal EU.

Bit cynical

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Ireland needs to prepare for no-deal. Britain is heading for a major collision with reality, by the looks of it. In the medium term we need to get the British state out of the six counties and in the longer term we need to quit the farce of 'neutrality' and get fully behind a federal EU.

Devastating to Ireland if there's no deal but I don't think it will come down to that. The UK isn't asking for anything that the EU hasn't already offered in the past. Of course there's going to be silly posturing at this stage but Ireland will be OK in the end. We just need to ensure that our particular interests are represented at the EU level.

theological

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Regarding standards, the UK has contributed greatly to many EU standards. It doesn't make sense to say they want less regulations when they themselves made the regulations.

Also, many EU standards are implemented worldwide and are harmonised to US, Canadian, Japanese and Australian standards. Other countries ask for EU standards and maybe a bit extra, China and Brazil for example.

I'm not saying the UK shouldn't have standards. I'm saying that the process is off. The UK should set its own standards and high standards for itself. As Johnson said earlier the UK does not need the EU in order for it to have high standards. To continue quoting Johnson from this morning:

I dispel the absurd caricature of Britain as a nation bent on the slash and burn of workers’ rights and environmental protection, as if we are saved from Dickensian squalor only by enlightened EU regulation, as if it was only thanks to Brussels that we are not preparing to send children back up chimneys.
In one field after another, Britain is far ahead.

No other nation that the EU has an FTA with needs to align itself to EU standards. Therefore the UK should politely decline in this case too. To quote Johnson further.

So I hope our friends will understand that what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
There is no need for a free trade agreement to involve accepting EU rules on competition policy, subsidies, social protection, the environment, or anything similar any more than the EU should be obliged to accept UK rules.
The UK will maintain the highest standards in these areas – better, in many respects, than those of the EU – without the compulsion of a treaty.

The key aim of Brexit was to take back control, not to hand it back to the EU when they have left.

My issue isn't with standards, but with process.

cryptocurrency

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Ireland needs to prepare for no-deal. Britain is heading for a major collision with reality, by the looks of it. In the medium term we need to get the British state out of the six counties and in the longer term we need to quit the farce of 'neutrality' and get fully behind a federal EU.

They knew the reality of the world before deciding to embark on this journey. It is the EU who hasn't woke up yet.

cryptocurrency

ambro25 wrote: »

What's one of them?

Last I checked, the EU has no FTA with Australia.

exactly, That is why it is being mentioned so much by the tory leadership.

Heads spinning in Brussels tonight.

Junkyard Tom

cryptocurrency wrote: »

They knew the reality of the world before deciding to embark on this journey. It is the EU who hasn't woke up yet.

No offence but I don't think there's any point in discussing this with you.

Professor Moriarty

cryptocurrency wrote: »

exactly, That is why it is being mentioned so much by the tory leadership.

Heads spinning in Brussels tonight.

Would you have any economic projections from reliable sources that demonstrate why No Deal will benefit Britain?

ambro25

cryptocurrency wrote: »

exactly, That is why it is being mentioned so much by the tory leadership.

Heads spinning in Brussels tonight.

Do you do delusion by the container only, or do you offer a drop-shipping option?

And what's the import duty forecast on it?

Padre_Pio

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Would you have any economic projections from reliable sources that demonstrate why No Deal will benefit Britain?

We've asked about a hundred times. All ignored.

Peregrinus

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Could there really be two different tax rates within different parts of the UK?

Sure. The US has different sales taxes in different states, so different rates of VAT in different parts of the UK is certainly doable, technically speaking. (Whether it would be economically desirable or politically acceptable is a different matter, of course.)

And worth pointing out in this context that the Scottish Parliament does have the power to vary the basic rate of income tax in Scotland, if it chooses. It has never exercised that power, but the principle that, legally and constitutionally, there can be different tax rates in different parts of the UK is well settled. Plus, of course, there have long been calls in NI for corporation tax rates there to be aligned to rates in the Republic, which again would mean different corporation tax rates in NI and GB.

Winning_Stroke

Peregrinus wrote: »

And worth pointing out in this context that the Scottish Parliament does have the power to vary the basic rate of income tax in Scotland, if it chooses. It has never exercised that power, but the principle that, legally and constitutionally, there can be different tax rates in different parts of the UK is well settled.

Income tax rates are different in Scotland than in England or Wales.