Will Britain piss off and get on with Brexit II (mod warning in OP)

theological

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The status quo has existed for nearly a century so I think that it's a little bit dramatic to just call it a "wrong". I understand the appeal, I truly do and I certainly can't think of many sound reasons to argue for NI to remain shackled to the British state but I don't think the romantic nationalism helps.

Shackled is rather extreme language. At the present time of asking there's no evidence that suggests that the people of Northern Ireland don't want to be a part of the United Kingdom.

When that evidence becomes available provisions for a border poll can be made.

No matter what happens in respect to a border poll provisions would have to be made to ensure that Unionists would fit into the Republic. In fact I suspect the Republic would have to change in its nature to incorporate this perhaps even becoming a federation with Stormont is still operating. We're a long way off and there's no evidence to suggest the Republic would take Northern Ireland onboard in the opposite referendum.

Northern Ireland would only be shackled to the United Kingdom if it was against its will.

Seth Brundle

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I'm not demanding anything except that a democratic mandate to end the division of the Irish nation be respected.

I never said that you were demanding anything. It was this post I was responding to...

Boredstiff666 wrote: »

Now there could be a chance of demands for a re-united Ireland.

Boredstiff666

theological wrote: »

Shackled is rather extreme language. At the present time of asking there's no evidence that suggests that the people of Northern Ireland don't want to be a part of the United Kingdom.

When that evidence becomes available provisions for a border poll can be made.

No matter what happens in respect to a border poll provisions would have to be made to ensure that Unionists would fit into the Republic. In fact I suspect the Republic would have to change in its nature to incorporate this perhaps even becoming a federation with Stormont is still operating. We're a long way off and there's no evidence to suggest the Republic would take Northern Ireland onboard in the opposite referendum.

Northern Ireland would only be shackled to the United Kingdom if it was against its will.

I fail to understand how a country can be 'shackled' to another unless it's against the will of it's people.

In the case of NI this isnt the case.

So more 'anti' language from ancapailldorcha which is amazing considering.

'anti' language?

Boredstiff666

Deleted User wrote: »

'anti' language?

Or a real bad choice of words.

Shackled means trapped or restrained or something like that doesnt it?

Since when was NI restrained by the UK?

The UK was remarked as being shackled to the EU because the people had never had a vote on membership at that time.

As far as I know NI has always voted to remain part of the UK so how are they shackled?

But what do you mean by 'anti' language? What is it?

volchitsa

Boredstiff666 wrote: »

Or a real bad choice of words.

Shackled means trapped or restrained or something like that doesnt it?

Since when was NI restrained by the UK?

Thef UK was remarked as being shackled to the EU because the people had never had a vote on membership at that time.

As far as I know NI has always voted to remain part of the UK so how are they shackled?

This level of delusion is quite amusing. The U.K. joined the EU as a result of a vote. Did the people of Ireland vote to join the UK, or the people of NI vote to withdraw from Ireland upon independence? As far as I know they did not.

Boredstiff666

volchitsa wrote: »

This level of delusion is quite amusing. The U.K. joined the EU as a result of a vote. Did the people of Ireland vote to join the UK, or the people of NI vote to withdraw from Ireland upon independence? As far as I know they did not.

Delusion? The people of the UK voted to join what was the Common Market. This organisation what they voted to join bears nothing in any similarity to what the EU is today which is the organisation they voted to leave 4 years ago.

NI people have had a vote or votes to stay with in the and be part of the UK.

They can have a vote to suit to stay in same now the UK has left the EU. That is all down to them and Westminster.

NI is not shackled to the UK in any shape or form.

Scotland is not shackled in the same way. They voted to stay last time around and that was to be by agreement for a generation. Being as the rest of the UK pays for such votes. Then that is the deal unless Westminster allows it.

Now you will say that in both cases those places voted to stay in the EU.

As I said once before. The club they joined goes with the majoriaty vote just as Mayo and Galway have to do if they voted different that the rest of the country in Ireland.

What do you not understand now?

volchitsa

Boredstiff666 wrote: »

Delusion? The people of the UK voted to join what was the Common Market. This organisation what they voted to join bears nothing in any similarity to what the EU is today which is the organisation they voted to leave 4 years ago.

The founding documents to the original Coal and Steel organisation are quite clear, and the opponents at the time pointed this out - it was always intended to be an ongoing process of increasing integration.

If the British government lied to their electors, as they may have done, that's not the EU's fault. And not really an argument against the EU, either. Perhaps they should abolish Westminster instead.

Boredstiff666 wrote: »

NI people have had a vote or votes to stay with in the and be part of the UK.

No vote to join though. And no vote since the UK (or rather England) voted to leave the EU - same as for Scotland, that changes the situation radically.

Boredstiff666 wrote: »

They can have a vote to suit to stay in same now the UK has left the EU. That is all down to them and Westminster.

You should tell that to Boris, then. He's refused a referendum to the Scots.

Boredstiff666 wrote: »

NI is not shackled to the UK in any shape or form.

Scotland is not shackled in the same way. They voted to stay last time around and that was to be by agreement for a generation. Being as the rest of the UK pays for such votes. Then that is the deal unless Westminster allows it.

Now you will say that in both cases those places voted to stay in the EU.

As I said once before. The club they joined goes with the majoriaty vote just as Mayo and Galway have to do if they voted different that the rest of the country in Ireland.

What do you not understand now?

The anti-independence campaign explicitly based its argument on the Uk remaining in the EU. That you think that doesn't matter is just personal opinion. If a majority of people in Scotland and NI think it does, then it does. There's a reason why BJ is desperate to stop the Scottish from having a vote on it.

Your Mayo and Galway point would be stronger if England hadn't already carved up Ulster to create Northern Ireland for just that reason - and without a democratic vote first.

Boredstiff666

volchitsa wrote: »

The founding documents to the original Coal and Steel organisation are quite clear, and the opponents at the time pointed this out - it was always intended to be an ongoing process of increasing integration.

If the British government lied to their electors, as they may have done, that's not the EU's fault. And not really an argument against the EU, either. Perhaps they should abolish Westminster instead. .........Totally agree 100%. I would go further but:eek:


No vote to join though. And no vote since the UK (or rather England) voted to leave the EU - same as for Scotland, that changes the situation radically.........Dunno.....like I said you join a club then you go by club rules.....dont like it then get out the club.



You should tell that to Boris, then. He's refused a referendum to the Scots.........Being as the rest of the hard working UK pay for such votes he did the right thing......they can wait.


The anti-independence campaign explicitly based its argument on the Uk remaining in the EU. That you think that doesn't matter is just personal opinion. If a majority of people in Scotland and NI think it does, then it does. There's a reason why BJ is desperate to stop the Scottish from having a vote on it.......really why is that then?

Your Mayo and Galway point would be stronger if England hadn't already carved up Ulster to create Northern Ireland for just that reason - and without a democratic vote first.......Your talking 'then'.....not now....times change.

Your banging on to the wrong person here mate...........I firmly believe no country should be ruled by another unless they want it.

Westminister are nothing but a self serving bunch of parasites and Boris has already disgraced and ruined himself bu giving rewarding Cameron, May and the like.........I just wait to see what he will do next as the British people despise those pieces of ****e.

House of Lords.....bulldoze into the Thames tomorrow morning.

The Scots and NI have had far too much hard earned English cash.........cut them loose tomorrow morning........ever notice the English are never given a vote on such?

theological

volchitsa wrote: »

This level of delusion is quite amusing. The U.K. joined the EU as a result of a vote. Did the people of Ireland vote to join the UK, or the people of NI vote to withdraw from Ireland upon independence? As far as I know they did not.

They have voted on this issue before in 1973. The answer was that NI should stay in the union.

Another border poll can be had under the right conditions. Namely evidence that there would be a majority in favour of independence.

Edit: The UK didn't have a referendum to join but had one 2 years later in 1975.

Boredstiff666

https://www.rte.ie/news/election-2020/2020/0209/1114111-election-exit-poll/

I did in a earlier post say Ireland has been led by Donkey's. Well Leo you were certainly in touch with your electorate.

So he lost:D:D Another who finds out the electorate dont buy bull**** and celebrity status. Bye Bye the wannabe. Just a shame he has share to that multi-million pension pot.

Boredstiff666

Do Sinn Fein agree with the EU?

cryptocurrency

Boredstiff666 wrote: »

volchitsa wrote: »

The founding documents to the original Coal and Steel organisation are quite clear, and the opponents at the time pointed this out - it was always intended to be an ongoing process of increasing integration.

If the British government lied to their electors, as they may have done, that's not the EU's fault. And not really an argument against the EU, either. Perhaps they should abolish Westminster instead. .........Totally agree 100%. I would go further but:eek:


No vote to join though. And no vote since the UK (or rather England) voted to leave the EU - same as for Scotland, that changes the situation radically.........Dunno.....like I said you join a club then you go by club rules.....dont like it then get out the club.



You should tell that to Boris, then. He's refused a referendum to the Scots.........Being as the rest of the hard working UK pay for such votes he did the right thing......they can wait.


The anti-independence campaign explicitly based its argument on the Uk remaining in the EU. That you think that doesn't matter is just personal opinion. If a majority of people in Scotland and NI think it does, then it does. There's a reason why BJ is desperate to stop the Scottish from having a vote on it.......really why is that then?

Your Mayo and Galway point would be stronger if England hadn't already carved up Ulster to create Northern Ireland for just that reason - and without a democratic vote first.......Your talking 'then'.....not now....times change.

Your banging on to the wrong person here mate...........I firmly believe no country should be ruled by another unless they want it.

Westminister are nothing but a self serving bunch of parasites and Boris has already disgraced and ruined himself bu giving rewarding Cameron, May and the like.........I just wait to see what he will do next as the British people despise those pieces of ****e.

House of Lords.....bulldoze into the Thames tomorrow morning.

The Scots and NI have had far too much hard earned English cash.........cut them loose tomorrow morning........ever notice the English are never given a vote on such?

there isn't a hope that scotland votes to leave the union. Let them vote again, the only thing against is the precedent of letting a vote so shortly after the previous was beaten. It would be beaten by more now. Only complete idiots and those completely out of touch with the feeing on the ground think the scots would vote to go.

It's a common view in ireland but let's be honest, it's a mix of wishful thinking and the fact people here are as thick as mincemeat when it comes to international affairs.

Boredstiff666

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Boredstiff666 wrote: »

there isn't a hope that scotland votes to leave the union. Let them vote again, the only thing against is the precedent of letting a vote so shortly after the previous was beaten. It would be beaten by more now. Only complete idiots and those completely out of touch with the feeing on the ground think the scots would vote to go.

It's a common view in ireland but let's be honest, it's a mix of wishful thinking and the fact people here are as thick as mincemeat when it comes to international affairs.

I totally agree mate and that goes with Brexit which is something I cant get my head around. Irish people or some seem to think that the rest of the world sees it through their eyes and with their thinking. In most cases it is light years away from such.

I think the best way to explain it to anybody here is when I first came to Ireland the one thing that astonished me was when......somebody suggests doing something..........then all the Irish peoples first suggestion is to find ways of NOT doing that thing!

So relate that to Brexit.........They think the world works as in their brain and cant see that others see the world different than them.........hence all the doom and gloom for the UK.

Total Madness.

Boredstiff666

Anyway its very quiet today I think they are gobsmacked that the rest Of Ireland doesnt think like them and gave Leo the boot.

Timberrrrrrrr

Boredstiff666 wrote: »

Anyway its very quiet today I think they are gobsmacked that the rest Of Ireland doesnt think like them and gave Leo the boot.

Or it's sunday and people have better things to do?

Boredstiff666

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Or it's sunday and people have better things to do?

Not you?

Timberrrrrrrr

Boredstiff666 wrote: »

Not you?

Currently sitting outside a lovely riverside pub enjoying a smoke after a hearty sunday dinner.

sondagefaux

theological wrote: »

I know that. My point is that a quota based FTA would be much better than agreeing to automatically take the EU rule book and accepting ECJ judgement over British law.

A deal which hands over that level of control to the EU is a bad deal because it restricts the scope of decision making in the UK and impacts what FTAs can be struck with others.

There is no proposal for the UK to 'follow the EU rule book'. The so-called 'level playing field' provisions would require both parties to not undercut each other by adhering to broadly similar standards on labour law, environmental law and on comepetition law and state aid rules. These areas are all covered by WTO rules and intetnational treaties in any case.

Both parties would be entirely free to set their own standards and regulations for all products and services, within the constraints of any international agreements they are committed to.

There would be no ECJ oversight over British law. The only role for the EU court would be to ensure that the deal was compatible with EU law, and to rule on any disputes about EU law.

theological

sondagefaux wrote: »

There is no proposal for the UK to 'follow the EU rule book'. The so-called 'level playing field' provisions would require both parties to not undercut each other by adhering to broadly similar standards on labour law, environmental law and on comepetition law and state aid rules. These areas are all covered by WTO rules and intetnational treaties in any case.

Both parties would be entirely free to set their own standards and regulations for all products and services, within the constraints of any international agreements they are committed to.

There would be no ECJ oversight over British law. The only role for the EU court would be to ensure that the deal was compatible with EU law, and to rule on any disputes about EU law.

The UK should stress that an arbitration body similar to what was agreed under CETA should be put in place. Representing UK, EU and a third party observer.

If the "level playing field" is based on EU rules without UK input and if those are ruled on by the ECJ that's also not acceptable.

Junkyard Tom

Boredstiff666 wrote: »

Do Sinn Fein agree with the EU?

They're traditionally Euro-sceptic even anti-EU if you go back far enough. I'd describe them as moderately EU critical now and utterly stupid if they don't realise that being in the EU is a gift to Irish sovereignty.

First Up

Junkyard Tom wrote:

They're traditionally Euro-sceptic even anti-EU if you go back far enough. I'd describe them as moderately EU critical now and utterly stupid if they don't realise that being in the EU is a gift to Irish sovereignty.

A party titled "Ourselves Alone" is unlikely to be enthusiastic about international collaboration but we'll see how it goes.

Boredstiff666

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

They're traditionally Euro-sceptic even anti-EU if you go back far enough. I'd describe them as moderately EU critical now and utterly stupid if they don't realise that being in the EU is a gift to Irish sovereignty.

I see Tom. So we could say that really they would prefer to be out of the EU?

Thing is the usual ones here have posted before that Irelands population is massively for the EU. I think almost 90% in favour of the EU was claimed by some.

If that were true then who must voted for a EU sceptic party?

Not only that but you could say that nearly 25% of those who bothered to vote may have voted for an EU sceptic party. Enough people in fact to become part of the government or even 'the' government.

Not only that but the EU sceptic party has completely blown the others away as they certainly wasn't expecting this.

Strange innit.

Boredstiff666

Boredstiff666 wrote: »

I see Tom. So we could say that really they would prefer to be out of the EU?

Thing is the usual ones here have posted before that Irelands population is massively for the EU. I think almost 90% in favour of the EU was claimed by some.

If that were true then who must voted for a EU sceptic party?

Not only that but you could say that nearly 25% of those who bothered to vote may have voted for an EU sceptic party. Enough people in fact to become part of the government or even 'the' government.

Not only that but the EU sceptic party has completely blown the others away as they certainly wasn't expecting this.

Strange innit.

The vote seems to have been most influenced by the housing crisis. There was no question about EU membership being answered in the election.

Just had a look at their 2020 manifesto, something I never imagined doing, and while it's certainly pretty sceptical, their approach is to stay in the EU and try reform what they see wrong with it. A reasonable approach I think most would agree.

https://www.sinnfein.ie/files/2020/SF_GE2020_Manifesto.pdf

We will lead efforts to reform and democratise the EU, we will oppose any efforts to further federalise
and militarise the EU. We will also oppose trade agreements, like CETA and Mercosur, which will
undermine democracy, our legal system, undermine environmental regulations, workers’ rights, our
agriculture industry and damage Small Medium Enterprises.

Sinn Féin priorities leading efforts to radically reform the EU, restoring Ireland’s neutrality and
independent foreign policy, initiating a whole of Government approach to combat climate change and
global inequality and ensuring Ireland plays a lead role in conflict resolution and global disarmament

theological

Deleted User wrote: »

The vote seems to have been most influenced by the housing crisis. There was no question about EU membership being answered in the election.

Just had a look at their 2020 manifesto, something I never imagined doing, and while it's certainly pretty sceptical, their approach is to stay in the EU and try reform what they see wrong with it. A reasonable approach I think most would agree.

Reform in the EU to make it what people actually want isn't possible.

At least that's the conclusion I've come to over the last few years. The EU as a body is only interested in consolidating more and more powers from member states.

That's also the reason I think it was right for the UK to leave. The EU was and is heading in a direction where the UK wasn't comfortable following.

I think the EU has become too much and too big in its remit. I could support a looser union of nations consolidated over trade rather than politics perhaps. But it isn't heading that way in any case.

Boredstiff666

Deleted User wrote: »

The vote seems to have been most influenced by the housing crisis. There was no question about EU membership being answered in the election.

Just had a look at their 2020 manifesto, something I never imagined doing, and while it's certainly pretty sceptical, their approach is to stay in the EU and try reform what they see wrong with it. A reasonable approach I think most would agree.

Admirable but as we all know impossible. One tiny voice of a country which has had billions and billions telling they others how it must be done is going to go down like a lead balloon. But hey nobody thought they would be in Government yesterday......so you never know.

It is absolutely feckin hilarious.

Boredstiff666

theological wrote: »

Reform in the EU to make it what people actually want isn't possible.

At least that's the conclusion I've come to over the last few years. The EU as a body is only interested in consolidating more and more powers from member states.

That's also the reason I think it was right for the UK to leave. The EU was and is heading in a direction where the UK wasn't comfortable following.

I think the EU has become too much and too big in its remit. I could support a looser union of nations consolidated over trade rather than politics perhaps. But it isn't heading that way in any case.

I think Macron might say 'Non'!

But when he has gone France won't be in the EU either so perhaps the Sinners may get their wish.

Boredstiff666

Leo now says he will not form a government with Sinn Fein. Assuming of course he is in a position to do this because at the moment he may be in the minority.

Anyway if he is in a position and he will not form a government it means Ireland then becomes a basket case and has no relevance anywhere.

Perhaps the EU may say Ireland has to vote again...........Not for the fist time hey lads?

Irishmale0399

Boredstiff666 wrote: »

Leo now says he will not form a government with Sinn Fein. Assuming of course he is in a position to do this because at the moment he may be in the minority.

Anyway if he is in a position and he will not form a government it means Ireland then becomes a basket case and has no relevance anywhere.

Perhaps the EU may say Ireland has to vote again...........Not for the fist time hey lads?

Can you imagine your best mate Boris and Mary Lou sitting down for a chat.....she would ate him without the salt. If she gets the top job in Irish government......a united Ireland is a very big step closer. Question is can she get it over the line before they bankrupt the country.......