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Will Britain piss off and get on with Brexit II (mod warning in OP)

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    #1952
    McGiver
    Registered Users Posts: 4,446 ✭✭✭McGiver


    theological wrote:
    Doing drastic things like closing businesses and schools is inappropriate at this stage. A scenario where you potentially have children exposed to the virus with grandparents isn't a helpful one.

    theological wrote:
    They are acting on the advice they have been given which is to slow down the spread so that public health services can cope. By the by I think that they have done a pretty good job so far. The reported cases in the UK are lower than in other large European countries.

    Reported for trolling. Because this is what it is.

    There's a pandemic, community transmission is happening in the UK. The time to act is right now. Otherwise the death rate will be much higher.


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    #1953
    Leroy42
    Registered Users Posts: 15,617 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    theological wrote: »
    You are making claims in spite of the evidence in respect to the UK's handling of this. Johnson's decision making is based on what he's being told by experts. The Chief Medical Officer and Chief Scientific Officer were present and have been present throughout.

    Closing schools won't have much of an impact on the spread of the virus.

    I think some people just want the UK government to do drastic things in spite of the evidence that would just exacerbate things.

    I am not making any claims, you are the one claiming that they are doing well, despite having no basis on which to base that due to a lack of information.

    And you continue to ignore my question about why you think Johnson is basing his decisions based on experts when the last 4 years shows that he is completely against that idea, as are the majority (all?) of his cabinet.

    The rest of the world is taking action now, based on expert advice, but the UK are almost alone at this stage in their inaction, but you think that is based on experts. And whilst I understand that even in normal situations experts can have many varying forecasts, it seems doubly strange that the UK experts are the only ones right on this and that the UK government are now willing to put aside their previous aversion to experts.

    They might well be right, I have no idea. But you are willing to give them full benefit of the doubt then they don't deserve it.


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    #1954
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 14,371 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    I am not making any claims, you are the one claiming that they are doing well, despite having no basis on which to base that due to a lack of information.

    And you continue to ignore my question about why you think Johnson is basing his decisions based on experts when the last 4 years shows that he is completely against that idea, as are the majority (all?) of his cabinet.

    The rest of the world is taking action now, based on expert advice, but the UK are almost alone at this stage in their inaction, but you think that is based on experts. And whilst I understand that even in normal situations experts can have many varying forecasts, it seems doubly strange that the UK experts are the only ones right on this and that the UK government are now willing to put aside their previous aversion to experts.

    They might well be right, I have no idea. But you are willing to give them full benefit of the doubt then they don't deserve it.

    Close schools = parents minding them = people not working = severe damage to economy. That's why Johnson won't shut the schools. The idea that he gives a damn about the nation's health is ludicrous.


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    #1955
    J Mysterio
    Registered Users Posts: 11,035 ✭✭✭✭J Mysterio


    https://twitter.com/thediyora/status/1238150563298238464?s=20


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    #1956
    theological
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    McGiver wrote: »
    Reported for trolling. Because this is what it is.

    There's a pandemic, community transmission is happening in the UK. The time to act is right now. Otherwise the death rate will be much higher.

    Goodness me. I'm sorry that facts hurt your sensibilities.

    The fact is that the UK have done a good job of informing the public and slowing the spread of coronavirus. That is all that can be done at this stage. The experts that are informing the government are in agreement.

    The UK are acting appropriately given the circumstances. Many firms are already encouraging working from home policies and the government have provided extra funding in the budget to tackle the issue.

    Again, like others you seem to be suggesting that the UK government should act for the sake of acting even if that action is counterproductive. I prefer to stick with what the experts are advising it.
    Leroy42 wrote: »
    I am not making any claims, you are the one claiming that they are doing well, despite having no basis on which to base that due to a lack of information.

    A few posts ago you claimed that the government weren't acting on evidence on coronavirus. I trust the experts who are advising the government.
    Leroy42 wrote: »
    The rest of the world is taking action now, based on expert advice, but the UK are almost alone at this stage in their inaction, but you think that is based on experts. And whilst I understand that even in normal situations experts can have many varying forecasts, it seems doubly strange that the UK experts are the only ones right on this and that the UK government are now willing to put aside their previous aversion to experts.

    See what I said to the poster above. Acting appropriately is what people need. The UK has got significantly fewer cases than other large countries in Europe at the present time.
    Leroy42 wrote: »
    They might well be right, I have no idea. But you are willing to give them full benefit of the doubt then they don't deserve it.

    You're right, you have no idea. I'm sticking with the experts on this. I trust their advice more than yours.


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    #1957
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    It’s bizarre that the chief medical officer and the chief scientific officer were both stood next to Johnson at the press conference, yet people seem to think he made this decision on the advice of Cummings.


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    #1958
    theological
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    Also Dr. Tony Holohan is saying the same thing. The disease can only be slowed down. The Taoiseach has said the same thing.

    The only difference of opinion is whether or not it is necessary at this stage to close schools or gatherings. The UK perspective is no.

    I suspect because most people probably aren't likely to attend any large gathering in the present circumstances and that children are a lot less susceptible than adults plus childcare and grandparents factor.


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    #1959
    Leroy42
    Registered Users Posts: 15,617 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    theological wrote: »
    Questioning is good providing that the questioning has good basis. If it doesn't however and if it involves unsubstantiated claims then the questioning is turned in the other direction.

    So far I think we've seen good handling of this from No 10.

    And is it still handling it well after its latest abrupt uturn?


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    #1960
    davedanon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,062 ✭✭✭davedanon


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/13/uk-to-ban-mass-gatherings-in-coronavirus-u-turn

    Hmmm. This doesn't look like a carefully though-out strategy. It looks like a U-turn. And it is still woefully inadequate. A week might be in a long in politics, but it's an aeon in this case. This response will be overtaken by events on Tuesday.


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    #1961
    davedanon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,062 ✭✭✭davedanon


    Two different DM covers...

    https://twitter.com/daverooney/status/1238359192249008128?s=19


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    #1962
    theological
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    And is it still handling it well after its latest abrupt uturn?

    If it is wise to bring this in for next weekend then it should be done. I think the UK has done pretty well so far.

    Acting appropriately is important as I've said before. Not just doing stuff for the sake of it.


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    #1963
    timetogo1
    Registered Users Posts: 862 ✭✭✭timetogo1


    theological wrote: »
    If it is wise to bring this in for next weekend then it should be done. I think the UK has done pretty well so far.

    Acting appropriately is important as I've said before. Not just doing stuff for the sake of it.


    The UK is wise when it doesn't restrict gatherings and its wise when it does. Does your head hurt with the mental gymnastics of trying to support the UK government no matter what decision they make even when when those decisions can conflict from one day to the next?


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    #1964
    theological
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    timetogo1 wrote: »
    The UK is wise when it doesn't restrict gatherings and its wise when it does. Does your head hurt with the mental gymnastics of trying to support the UK government no matter what decision they make?

    It is about acting appropriately.

    RTE actually put up a very helpful article on the UK strategy here.

    I'd be happy to discuss with the critics further if they provide a logical argument as to why doing this now will be more effective than doing it when the Chief Medical Officer and the Chief Scientific Officer decide it is appropriate.

    Until then I'll say the UK has done a good job. Reported cases are lower than in large surrounding countries. They have communicated a clear strategy in consultation with the experts. They have a clear plan to reduce the peak and a catalogue of measures for appropriate time points.

    Rushing to do something just to be seen to be doing something isn't clever.


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    #1965
    timetogo1
    Registered Users Posts: 862 ✭✭✭timetogo1


    theological wrote: »
    It is about acting appropriately.

    RTE actually put up a very helpful article on the UK strategy here.

    I'd be happy to discuss with the critics further if they provide a logical argument as to why doing this now will be more effective than doing it when the Chief Medical Officer and the Chief Scientific Officer decide it is appropriate.

    Until then I'll say the UK has done a good job. Reported cases are lower than in large surrounding countries. They have communicated a clear strategy in consultation with the experts. They have a clear plan to reduce the peak and a catalogue of measures for appropriate time points.

    Rushing to do something just to be seen to be doing something isn't clever.


    The UK has shown that they're not mad about experts. Experts in pretty much every other country disagree with them. The UK approach seems similar to the initial Italy approach.
    So we'll see in a few months how the countries do.

    I think I can predict that you'll say the UK approach was a resounding success.


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    #1966
    theological
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    timetogo1 wrote: »
    The UK has shown that they're not mad about experts. Experts in pretty much every other country disagree with them. The UK approach seems similar to the initial Italy approach.
    So we'll see in a few months how the countries do.

    I think I can predict that you'll say the UK approach was a resounding success.

    In this case the experts are directly advising the Government so unless you're going to back up your opinion with substance then I would say it is without foundation.


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    #1967
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    J Mysterio wrote: »
    https://twitter.com/thediyora/status/1238150563298238464?s=20

    this is what was said
    There will be many more cases.

    More people will get sick and unfortunately, we must face the tragic reality that some people will die.


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    #1968
    Donald Trump
    Registered Users Posts: 19,572 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    theological wrote: »
    In this case the experts are directly advising the Government so unless you're going to back up your opinion with substance then I would say it is without foundation.


    Boris could have great craic with the likes of you - tweet one thing and have you licking his hole and coming to his defense on the interweb proclaiming him as a genius Saviour, then 5 minutes later tweeting the opposite, then having you lick his hole online again for contradictory (to your first posts) reasons and then he could retweet his first one again.


    11:59: Boris tweets "this is serious, we will never cancel any gatherings"
    12:00: thelogical "Boris is doing the right thing. He is a genius. It makes perfect sense - everyone else is stupid. The scientific advice is clear and he is right"
    12:01 Boris tweets. "sorry typo - I meant to say 'this is serious, we will now cancel any gathering' "
    12:02: thelogical "Boris is a genius. We must cancel all gatherings right away. The scientific advice is clear and he is right"


    At some stage you might develop the ability to think for yourself. Perhaps even logically. (ironically given your username!)


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    #1969
    theological
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    Argumentum ad hominem.

    I've been asking for logical reasons as to why the UK isn't acting appropriately and I'm still waiting for answers.

    I've got no problem with action provided that things are done at the right time and for good reasons. The UK approach seems to be based on this so far.

    If you disagree give reasons


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    #1970
    Donald Trump
    Registered Users Posts: 19,572 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    theological wrote: »
    Argumentum ad hominem.

    I've been asking for logical reasons as to why the UK isn't acting appropriately and I'm still waiting for answers.

    I've got no problem with action provided that things are done at the right time and for good reasons. The UK approach seems to be based on this so far.

    If you disagree give reasons


    Lol. You have a few soundbytes - they are getting advice from experts. blah blah. Apparently the UK "experts" are better than all the other experts who are over at the coalface in China or Italy etc.

    Earlier in the thread sure you'd have been lionising Dominic Cummins et. al. for getting rid of the "experts".


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    #1971
    davedanon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,062 ✭✭✭davedanon


    theological wrote: »
    In this case the experts are directly advising the Government so unless you're going to back up your opinion with substance then I would say it is without foundation.

    Why do you assume that the British government are 100% amenable to expert opinion? Do they have a track record for this? I rather think the opposite. They are a bunch of ideologues, proven, demonstrably so (Brexit). If their experts are on board, then it is far more likely that A) they have been handpicked for their opinions (Hmm, now who would be responsible for that, I wonder), or B) that they are doubtful, to say the least, but they are essentially a figleaf for the behavioural economic approach* being taken, and their opinions are being ignored.

    *that's a kind description. Another way of putting it is: The British government are playing Russian Roulette, with their own population.

    The problem for us is, this wanton exceptionalism on the Brits' part is going to undermine the opposite approaches being taken by the rest of Europe. Maybe 'we' should be closing our borders, and banning all travel to and from the UK, including Norn, unless they reverse course and get on board.


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    #1972
    Leroy42
    Registered Users Posts: 15,617 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    And expert opinion is rarely a or b. It is usually if and probably and extrapolations. So it is perfectly possible that they are listening to expert advice, basing their decisions on it, without the expert being in actual agreement with the decision. But also not being in a position to definitely rule it as wrong.

    Have the experts suddenly changed their position to now wanting mass meetings banned? If they didn't believe it before then why didn't they come out against the likes of Premier League,Rugby etc?


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    #1973
    RobMc59
    Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    Donald Trump wrote: »
    Lol. You have a few soundbytes - they are getting advice from experts. blah blah. Apparently the UK "experts" are better than all the other experts who are over at the coalface in China or Italy etc.

    Earlier in the thread sure you'd have been lionising Dominic Cummins et. al. for getting rid of the "experts".

    The situation is fluid and changing daily so surely it's better to keep all options open and I haven't heard or read anyone here in the UK saying their tactics are superior?In addition,mainland Europe doesn't appear to have a unified strategy.
    Has anyone raised the point as to whether unrestricted free movement has been a catalyst for infection rates,making Europe the epicentre of the virus?


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    #1974
    Donald Trump
    Registered Users Posts: 19,572 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    The situation is fluid and changing daily so surely it's better to keep all options open and I haven't heard or read anyone here in the UK saying their tactics are superior?In addition,mainland Europe doesn't appear to have a unified strategy.

    Not sure of your point. UK upper class appear to just want the virus to be allowed to run it's course and let the peasants deal with it. I'm sure they have their private hospitals etc. and sure none of their families will be working as nurses.

    Italy appears to be in serious shite with 17,000 or so confirmed cases. That is about 0.03% of the population.

    Suppose you want 3% of the population to have it at any one time and that treatment lasts on average for a month. That gives you about 3 years to manage it.....but at a rate 100 times what they are dealing with in Italy.

    UK are basically saying - fuck it. We don't care. Better to get it out of the way, let a load of poor people die, and then we can go back to making money as soon as possible.
    RobMc59 wrote: »
    Has anyone raised the point as to whether unrestricted free movement has been a catalyst for infection rates,making Europe the epicentre of the virus?

    No. Because it's retarded. But it will undoubtedly be jumped upon by some Brexiters blaming the foreigners for bringing it (although wasn't the original European super-spreader a Brit?)


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    #1975
    davedanon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,062 ✭✭✭davedanon


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2020/mar/14/coronavirus-live-updates-uk-us-australia-italy-europe-school-shutdown-sport-events-cancelled-latest-update-news

    English coronavirus deaths double overnight.


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    #1976
    Donald Trump
    Registered Users Posts: 19,572 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    davedanon wrote: »
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2020/mar/14/coronavirus-live-updates-uk-us-australia-italy-europe-school-shutdown-sport-events-cancelled-latest-update-news

    English coronavirus deaths double overnight.


    Yeah, but yeah, but did someone not just simply explain to those people that they should have just gotten herd immunity and not be dying?


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    #1977
    McGiver
    Registered Users Posts: 4,446 ✭✭✭McGiver


    theological wrote:
    Goodness me. I'm sorry that facts hurt your sensibilities.

    No facts in your post I responded to. Zero. "Herd immunity" nonsense was disputed by leading experts at Lancet and other organisations.


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    #1978
    davedanon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,062 ✭✭✭davedanon


    This piece seems authoritative. It clearly notes the input of Halpern and the Behavioural Science 'Nudge Unit'. 47 million people would need to be infected, and there could be more than a million deaths. Can Boris live with that body count?

    http://theconversation.com/coronavirus-can-herd-immunity-really-protect-us-133583


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    #1979
    McGiver
    Registered Users Posts: 4,446 ✭✭✭McGiver


    Donald Trump wrote:
    UK are basically saying - **** it. We don't care. Better to get it out of the way, let a load of poor people die, and then we can go back to making money as soon as possible.
    Yes. Tories' core philosophy. Absolutely criminal. Given current available evidence from China, Korea and Italy.
    I would like to see a trial with Johnson for this.
    This will result in very many unnecessary deaths.


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    #1980
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    McGiver wrote: »
    No facts in your post I responded to. Zero. "Herd immunity" nonsense was disputed by leading experts at Lancet and other organisations.

    Can you provide a link?


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    #1981
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    McGiver wrote: »
    Yes. Tories' core philosophy. Absolutely criminal. Given current available evidence from China, Korea and Italy.
    I would like to see a trial with Johnson for this.
    This will result in very many unnecessary deaths.

    And the SNP, obviously.


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