Will Britain piss off and get on with Brexit II (mod warning in OP)

Wanderer78

Boredstiff666 wrote:

T'was a joke.

Ha

Peregrinus

Boredstiff666 wrote: »

T'was a joke. :rolleyes:

So, presumably, was this:

Boredstiff666 wrote: »

Imagine if the roles were reversed and Boris came over here wagging his finger at little Irish people saying you are 4 million and we are bigger than you. I can imagine Pat Kenny needing therapy the next day.

This is exactly the line the British government did take, along with much of the Brexiteer commentariat. We didn't resort to therapy; we just waited for reality to assert itself, and in due course the UK backed down and accepted the backstop with the internal frontier that no British government could ever possibly accept.

It's the brexiteers, I think, who will need therapy to come to terms with what they have done to their country, but they haven't reached that point yet. They are still in denial. Therapy is only useful after denial has ceased to be an effective psychological defence mechanism.

Boredstiff666

Peregrinus wrote: »

So, presumably, was this:


This is exactly the line the British government did take, along with much of the Brexiteer commentariat. We didn't resort to therapy; we just waited for reality to assert itself, and in due course the UK backed down and accepted the backstop with the internal frontier that no British government could ever possibly accept.

It's the brexiteers, I think, who will need therapy to come to terms with what they have done to their country, but they haven't reached that point yet. They are still in denial. Therapy is only useful after denial has ceased to be an effective psychological defence mechanism.

I waited and waited until it came and I knew it had to be the Brits fault:D:D:D True to form and so predictable.

You lot really need some help honestly. I don't know what its called but its bad.

An Irish obsession with everybody else's business but when its pointed out they are wrong you just cant take self criticism or face reality.

It is always somebody else's fault.

Peregrinus

Boredstiff666 wrote: »

I waited and waited until it came and I knew it had to be the Brits fault:D:D:D True to form and so predictable.

You lot really need some help honestly. I don't know what its called but its bad.

An Irish obsession with everybody else's business but when its pointed out they are wrong you just cant take self criticism or face reality.

It is always somebody else's fault.

The honours students will note that none of this has anything to do with anything that I said in my post. And that boredstiff has not contradicted or denied anything that I said in my post.

This is what we call a smokescreen, people. It's what Brexiteers do when they hope to distract from inconvenient facts, like that fact that the UK has already tried precisely the tactic that Brexiteer mentioned, and that it was a complete bust.

Peregrinus

Peregrinus wrote: »

This is exactly the line the British government did take, along with much of the Brexiteer commentariat. We didn't resort to therapy; we just waited for reality to assert itself, and in due course the UK backed down and accepted the backstop with the internal frontier that no British government could ever possibly accept..

Was this before or after the Irish list their collective **** over an imagined threat to starve the Irish, followed by obligatory discussions about the famine, genocide and reparations?

Boredstiff666

Peregrinus wrote: »

The honours students will note that none of this has anything to do with anything that I said in my post. And that boredstiff has not contradicted or denied anything that I said in my post.

This is what we call a smokescreen, people. It's what Brexiteers do when they hope to distract from inconvenient facts, like that fact that the UK has already tried precisely the tactic that Brexiteer mentioned, and that it was a complete bust.

The smokescreen is yours my dear. My post was just about the events of yesterday and the importance of petroleum products and a land route to Ireland.

You had to blame the Brits somehow so you took it elsewhere than what my post was about.

Predictable.

Peregrinus

I quoted your post directly. Are you denying that you wrote what I quoted, or are you denying that you meant what you wrote?

theological

The idea that the UK thinks itself an empire has been repeated here again and again and it is as absurd as suggesting that the UK can't be prosperous outside of the EU. The UK economy is about the same size as the smallest 18 member states combined. Many countries with economies which are smaller than the British one are perfectly fine outside of such an arrangement. It would be nice if people could acknowledge that Brexit won't be armageddon.

theological

theological wrote: »

The idea that the UK thinks itself an empire has been repeated here again and again and it is as absurd as suggesting that the UK can't be prosperous outside of the EU. The UK economy is about the same size as the smallest 18 member states combined. Many countries with economies which are smaller than the British one are perfectly fine outside of such an arrangement. It would be nice if people could acknowledge that Brexit won't be armageddon.

this is where the debate on this and other threads just descends in to farce. the brief and somewhat pointless debate around job losses at Land Rover are a good example.

it is possible to not be a supporter of Brexit and also not think it is apocalyptic at the same time.

First Up

Boredstiff666 wrote:

Go on First Up........... Explain to us how it was all the British peoples fault for yesterdays performance and how the Brits who were minding their own business yesterday deserved such an onslaught.

Onslaught?

Varadkar compared the relative sizes of the EU and UK. If you find the facts threatening you better fasten your seat belt.

ancapailldorcha

Aegir wrote: »

Was this before or after the Irish list their collective **** over an imagined threat to starve the Irish, followed by obligatory discussions about the famine, genocide and reparations?

All of Ireland lost its sh*t? Proof please.

ancapailldorcha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

All of Ireland lost its sh*t? Proof please.

Ellis O'Hanlon sums it up nicely in the Indo.

https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/eilis-ohanlon-brits-want-to-starve-the-irish-is-the-definition-of-fake-news-37607873.html

That fact that it is still raised on here and other forums regularly would indicate this has now entered the public psyche in the way bendy bananas could only dream of.

ancapailldorcha

Aegir wrote: »

Ellis O'Hanlon sums it up nicely in the Indo.

https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/eilis-ohanlon-brits-want-to-starve-the-irish-is-the-definition-of-fake-news-37607873.html

That fact that it is still raised on here and other forums regularly would indicate this has now entered the public psyche in the way bendy bananas could only dream of.

One person's reaction, then and not the Irish as a whole. Right.

Peregrinus

theological wrote: »

The idea that the UK thinks itself an empire has been repeated here again and again and it is as absurd . . .

It's not that absurd. There's abundant evidence, for example, that many who supported Brexit because they objected to EU citizens exercising their rights as such in the UK did so in the expectation that British citizens would be able to continue to exercise similar rights in the EU, regard this expectation as perfectly reasonable and think that if it isn't so, this will be the EU "punishing" the UK. What is that, if not an essentially imperialist attitude which assumes that British citizenship is a status carrying superior rights that other countries must respect?

(But in fact, as I understand it, Varadkar's comment was not that the UK regards itself as an empire, but that the UK - or, at least, Brexiters in the UK - regard the EU as an empire, and so fundamentally misunderstand it.)

theological wrote: »

. . . as suggesting that the UK can't be prosperous outside of the EU.

"Prosperous" isn't a binary. Countries can be more or less prosperous. The question is not, therefore, whether the UK can be prosperous outside the EU, but whether it can be as prosperous outside the EU as it can within.

Brexiters generally answer this question in one of two ways - (A) yes it can; or (B) no it can't, but the diminution in prosperity is a price worth paying for other intangible but nevertheless real advantages which will accrue from Brexit.

theological wrote: »

The UK economy is about the same size as the smallest 18 member states combined. Many countries with economies which are smaller than the British one are perfectly fine outside of such an arrangement. It would be nice if people could acknowledge that Brexit won't be armageddon.

It won't be Armageddon, but that's a fairly thin justification for Brexit, surely? The fact that the UK economy is about the same size as 18 countries with considerably smaller economies is a massive irrelevance; if having a large economy was a measure of prosperity then UK outside the EU would be much, much less prosperous than the EU, which will have an economy greater than that of five UKs. But that's a nonsensical calculation (in both cases).

The question is, is Brexit going to make Britain poorer? The answer, by most projections, is "yes". There is dispute over how much poorer, partly because people argue over the basis of the projections, and partly because the projections depend on events yet to unfold, like "how much worse than single market participation will the UK/EU trade deal be?" But all of the projections show Brexit as impoverishing the UK; the only ones which do not depend on the UK government adopting policies which it has said it will not adopt (and which would probably be politically unacceptable).

Which brings me back to the point I made above. Brexiters who assert that Brexit will make the UK more prosperous are, to put it kindly, guilty of wishful thinking. To put it less kindly, they are delusional. I have more time for those Brexiters who accept that, yes, Brexit will cost the UK something, in material terms, but who attempt to mount an argument that this is a price worth paying. I don't think I have come across a version of this argument which convinces me, but it strikes me as more realistic and more honest that outright denial of the economic harm that Brexit entails.

KildareP

Boredstiff666 wrote: »

I see Leo was at it again yesterday. Beating his chest and talking of British people thinking they are still an empire. Strange that because of all my time in the UK I never heard a normal person talk of an empire. But there you go.

He then said the Brits better remember that we are 450 million and you are but just 60 million so we are more powerful than you.

Obviously he trying to look big in front of the electorate as he is bumming in the polls and about to visit the Social Welfare office soon.

That's the only reason it could have been for him to do this as it was unexpected and totally out of the blue.

He was giving an interview with a UK interviewer on a UK channel to be aired in a part of the schedule the vast majority of Irish people don't watch. Call it putting a perspective on the oft-uttered "they need us more than we need them" mantra. What did you expect, him to agree with everything put to him?

Boredstiff666 wrote: »

Non of this goes down well in England with normal people. They just see it as another attack on themselves for just exercising their democratic right and voting for what 'they' want.

The EU and it's populace really don't care what English people think.

This thread keeps an interest purely out of watching what's going on on the ground in the UK but your average Joe or Jane on the streets of Ireland couldn't care less what the English think of them or anyone else.

Boredstiff666 wrote: »

Imagine if the roles were reversed and Boris came over here wagging his finger at little Irish people saying you are 4 million and we are bigger than you. I can imagine Pat Kenny needing therapy the next day.

Johnson doesn't even have the wherewithall to manage that. He came over here to meet Varadkar spouting meaningless optimism and bluff to hide the reality he doesn't seem to have a clue what "his" WAB actually entails. Still doesn't (still no checks between GB/NI, apparently).
The most talked about takeaway from his meeting here was this gem:

Boredstiff666 wrote: »

I saw a video this morning on same matter which showed that Ireland was 100% reliant on imported Petroleum products with over 90% of them coming from the UK. Also regardless of the new ferry routes, Ireland is reliant on the land bridge across the UK for its exports and desperately needs the open border link through NI to the UK.

Ah wonderful, yes, threaten Ireland now with fuel and supply shortages.

Just remember:
- 47% of UK gas comes through European pipelines
- Britain's broadcast media - including terrestrial Freeview and DAB - is heavily reliant on EU-based and owned satellite companies to function effectively
- NI is still reliant on landbridge to get goods to/from GB
- The UK is reliant on ongoing co-operation to travel through EU airspace unless they want to make fuel-hungry and time consuming diversions to the very North of GB to get anywhere they want in the world

So go on, try it.

ancapailldorcha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

One person's reaction, then and not the Irish as a whole. Right.

one person's reaction?

Did you not read the article?

ancapailldorcha

Aegir wrote: »

one person's reaction?

Did you not read the article?

A few people. Hardly representative of a country of over 4 million to be honest.

FrancieBrady

Aegir wrote: »

one person's reaction?

Did you not read the article?

Your own parliament went pretty wild on what was seen as a fairly clear inference in what she said. She was responding/quoting an article that highlighted food shortages in Ireland.
Your PM May had to answer questions on it in the HoC and disassociate her government from them. One of YOUR Mp's lambasted her

David Lammy wrote:

"Priti Patel's comments expose either extreme callousness or ignorance. Shame on her either way for throwing salt at old wounds."

Fairly typical you are laying the 'over reaction' solely at the door of the Irish people.

Imreoir2

theological wrote: »

The UK economy is about the same size as the smallest 18 member states combined. It would be nice if people could acknowledge that Brexit won't be armageddon.

The Irish economey is larger than the smallest 8 member states combined and Ireland is itself a small member state. There are counties in Ireland with a larger economey than some EU member states, but that does not make us an economic superpower. The point you make gets thrown about is if it should hold some weight but the EU has a lot of small members, so what exactly is your point? The reality is that the UK will not get as good a deal from the EU as even the smallest member of the EU gets.

Brexit won't be armageddon for the UK, but if that is the bar you have set then you need to take a serious look at what you are doing.

First Up

Imreoir2 wrote:

The Irish economey is larger than the smallest 8 member states combined and Ireland is itself a small member state. There are counties in Ireland with a larger economey than some EU member states, but that does not make us an economic superpower. The point you make gets thrown about is if it should hold some weight but the EU has a lot of small members, so what exactly is your point? The reality is that the UK will not get as good a deal from the EU as even the smallest member of the EU gets.

It needs to be remembered (because it often isn't) that the EU is not about countries "doing deals" with each other.

Wealth creation, industry, investment decisions, capital flows, employment and trade are all predominantly carried out by the private sector. Trade happens not because of "deals"; it happens when two private companies decide to do business. The EU and UK could agree a free trade "deal" and it would not guarantee a single transaction between them.

Private companies all over the world decide who to do business with - who to buy from, sell to, use as intermediaries and so on. They take many things into account but nobody forces them to make their choice.

Membership of the EU and Single Market make it as easy as it can be for companies to do business with each other. The governments of the member states regulate the (common) business environment but otherwise get out of the way. It is as easy for a company in Belgium to do business with a counterpart in Poland or Greece as it is with someone down the road. After that, it is down to competition on quality, price and service.

By leaving the EU and SM, the UK is making it a lot harder for companies in the EU to decide to give their business to a company in the UK. And so far, there is no evidence that they will compensate for this by making it any easier for companies in other parts of the world to do business with UK counterparts than they do now.

This is the reality of it.

KildareP

Aegir wrote: »

this is where the debate on this and other threads just descends in to farce. the brief and somewhat pointless debate around job losses at Land Rover are a good example.

it is possible to not be a supporter of Brexit and also not think it is apocalyptic at the same time.

100%.

It will be neither a success nor a disaster overnight.

More like a boiling frog or watching a loved one grow old.

It will be very slow and gradual.

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Your own parliament went pretty wild on what was seen as a fairly clear inference in what she said. She was responding/quoting an article that highlighted food shortages in Ireland.
Your PM May had to answer questions on it in the HoC and disassociate her government from them. One of YOUR Mp's lambasted her

one of the opposition MPs jumped on it you mean? hardly a great example there Fran.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Fairly typical you are laying the 'over reaction' solely at the door of the Irish people.

fairly typical you try and put words in to people's mouths to be honest Francis.

The Irish are prone to over reaction, as are most people nowadays.

FrancieBrady

Aegir wrote: »

one of the opposition MPs jumped on it you mean? hardly a great example there Fran.




fairly typical you try and put words in to people's mouths to be honest Francis.

The Irish are prone to over reaction, as are most people nowadays.

Aegir wrote:

Was this before or after the Irish list their collective **** over an imagined threat to starve the Irish, followed by obligatory discussions about the famine, genocide and reparations?

The reaction came from here and the UK. You could have said the UK Parliament 'lost it's collective **** over it' too...but of course you didn't.

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The reaction came from here and the UK. You could have said the UK Parliament 'lost it's collective **** over it' too...but of course you didn't.

because they didn't.

FrancieBrady

Aegir wrote: »

because they didn't.

Matter of opinion. If a UK PM has to address the controversy the remarks aroused, I would say **** was lost somewhere.

theological

Imreoir2 wrote: »

The Irish economey is larger than the smallest 8 member states combined and Ireland is itself a small member state. There are counties in Ireland with a larger economey than some EU member states, but that does not make us an economic superpower. The point you make gets thrown about is if it should hold some weight but the EU has a lot of small members, so what exactly is your point? The reality is that the UK will not get as good a deal from the EU as even the smallest member of the EU gets.

Brexit won't be armageddon for the UK, but if that is the bar you have set then you need to take a serious look at what you are doing.

Great. So I guess I would say the UK should act on the democratic will of the people and gain its own trade policy as a result. In all probability the UK will continue to be a successful market economy outside of the EU.

I'm glad we're in agreement.

First Up

theological wrote:

Great. So I guess I would say the UK should act on the democratic will of the people and gain its own trade policy as a result. In all probability the UK will continue to be a successful market economy outside of the EU.

As I said before, the democratic will of the people would be for free beer on Sundays. Should that be respected too?

Representative democracy involves electing people to make decisions about complicated stuff. That's the version that works.

cryptocurrency

KildareP wrote: »

He was giving an interview with a UK interviewer on a UK channel to be aired in a part of the schedule the vast majority of Irish people don't watch. Call it putting a perspective on the oft-uttered "they need us more than we need them" mantra. What did you expect, him to agree with everything put to him?


The EU and it's populace really don't care what English people think.

This thread keeps an interest purely out of watching what's going on on the ground in the UK but your average Joe or Jane on the streets of Ireland couldn't care less what the English think of them or anyone else.


Johnson doesn't even have the wherewithall to manage that. He came over here to meet Varadkar spouting meaningless optimism and bluff to hide the reality he doesn't seem to have a clue what "his" WAB actually entails. Still doesn't (still no checks between GB/NI, apparently).
The most talked about takeaway from his meeting here was this gem:



Ah wonderful, yes, threaten Ireland now with fuel and supply shortages.

Just remember:
- 47% of UK gas comes through European pipelines
- Britain's broadcast media - including terrestrial Freeview and DAB - is heavily reliant on EU-based and owned satellite companies to function effectively
- NI is still reliant on landbridge to get goods to/from GB
- The UK is reliant on ongoing co-operation to travel through EU airspace unless they want to make fuel-hungry and time consuming diversions to the very North of GB to get anywhere they want in the world

So go on, try it.

Why not. The EU is full of tin pot nations, UK could do what they liked. Nations of chumps. Do they have a catapult between them?

cryptocurrency

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Why not. The EU is full of tin pot nations, UK could do what they liked. Nations of chumps. Do they have a catapult between them?

More evidence that you really don't know what your talking about.

Leroy42

theological wrote: »

Great. So I guess I would say the UK should act on the democratic will of the people and gain its own trade policy as a result. In all probability the UK will continue to be a successful market economy outside of the EU.

I'm glad we're in agreement.

And what trade policy did the people vote for? Did it involve increased foreign aid to African countries? Did it involve increased visas for India?

Did it involve GMO foods, bank deregulation?

People voted for an idea, when in fact the idea is undeliverable.