Will Britain piss off and get on with Brexit II (mod warning in OP)

Donald Trump

blinding wrote: »

He did seriously well in the December 2019 General Election. Bye Bye Eu.

If he didn't grovel for an extension they'd be 100% out long ago.

Blueshoe

blinding wrote: »

There will probably be no deal. Neither the Eu or Barnier are serious about doing a sensible deal. Its quite possible that the Hardline Tory Eu-sceptics have no intention of doing a deal either.

The Eu should be worried about more important stuff but the crushing of the Democratic Decision of a Nation State is more Important to them.

Democracy will beat them. Being Anti-Democratic is the Achilles Heal of the Eu.

Because it has No respect for Democracy it just cannot comprehend that the Democracy to people in Nation states is far more Important to those people than the Eu. The Eu will crumble like the other Empires before it. Bye Bye Eu.

The trading bloc was a great idea. It should have stopped then. People in Dublin have nothing in common with people in Prague or Lisbon etc etc
We are not all the same. Nor do we want to be

blinding

Donald Trump wrote: »

If he didn't grovel for an extension they'd be 100% out long ago.

They are out now and thats what matters. They saved their Democracy and have done a lot for European Democracy.

Blueshoe

Donald Trump wrote: »

If he didn't grovel for an extension they'd be 100% out long ago.

EU have said they are willing to extend the withdrawal period by up to two years. They are very worried. 12% hole in the finances.
UK said no thanks

Donald Trump

blinding wrote: »

They are out now and thats what matters. They saved their Democracy and have done a lot for European Democracy.

But they are still under EU rules til the end of Dec? No? Isn't that an issue for Brexiteers? They don't want another extension to prolong that status quo.



If he'd gone last October like he promised then you wouldn't have that situation.

FrancieBrady

Blueshoe wrote: »

The trading bloc was a great idea. It should have stopped then. People in Dublin have nothing in common with people in Prague or Lisbon etc etc
We are not all the same. Nor do we want to be

Who said we were the same? Nobody I ever heard.

The people of the UK aren't even 'all the same'.

fash

.

fash

blinding wrote: »

Do as you please. Its not as if the British people respect the Anti-Democratic Eu.

The UK is less democratic than Russia or China: at least they do not pretend.

You would think that the Eu might have more important stuff to be doing but I suppose when you have No respect for Democracy then it is Important to attempt to Punish those that have the Temerity to Vote against you.

You have no respect for democracy. The EU is 450 million people. Ireland voted for EU membership, voted for Lisbon and voted for Nice. Respect the will of the Irish people. Respect the will of the Scottish people. Respect the will of the northern Irish people. Respect the will of everyone.

The Eu is no Respecter or democracy because the Eu knows democracy does not guarantee their Result.

The Lack of respect the Eu has for Democracy will eventually be its undoing. The people of Nation States love their Democracy far more than the Eu. The Eu just cannot cope with Democracy. Thats why it hates Democracy

Long Live Democracy and the Nation State !

Please - look at the respect shown by the UK to the will of the Irish or Scottish or northern Irish people who voted for the GFA and against Brexit. Look at the respect shown by the UK for the will of the people of the UK who voted 56% against the Tories. Look at the respect shown by the UK towards the majority who didn't want Brexit and the vast majority of British who didn't want a hard Brexit.
Look at the threats issued by the UK to starve Ireland, to prevent medical supplies from arriving, to cripple Ireland economically and the actual anti-Irish propaganda and diplomatic efforts undertaken to isolate Ireland to try to force Ireland to bow to the UK's reneging on its undertakings under the GFA.

The EU is far more democratic than the UK or the US - and far more concerned with what is morally right than either.

Blueshoe

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Who said we were the same? Nobody I ever heard.

The people of the UK aren't even 'all the same'.

We are all living under the Eu book of rule. Everything from food standards, banking etc has to comply with Eu decided rules.

UK voted out. Slim margin but majority decides in a democracy. As Coronavirus does down and people begin to remember the upcoming Brexit sh1t show once again there will be calls for another vote etc. Too late

FrancieBrady

Blueshoe wrote: »

We are all living under the Eu book of rule. Everything from food standards, banking etc has to comply with Eu decided rules.

UK voted out. Slim margin but majority decides in a democracy. As Coronavirus does down and people begin to remember the upcoming Brexit sh1t show once again there will be calls for another vote etc. Too late

Of course we live under the EU rule book...we decided to do that by majority.

If at any time enough people think there should be another vote (on anything) that is what happens in a democracy. There have been several votes on EU membership in the UK

fash

Blueshoe wrote: »

The trading bloc was a great idea. It should have stopped then. People in Dublin have nothing in common with people in Prague or Lisbon etc etc
We are not all the same. Nor do we want to be

I certainly have a lot in common with people in Prague and Lisbon - perhaps you don't - but I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of Irish do.
What is this "trading bloc" you are talking about and why would it be so much better than what the EU has? What are the limitations you propose? No Erasmus? No data roaming? No arrest warrants? No EU wide patents? No grouping together to improve negotiating power? No cooperation on competition law against global corporations? No cooperation on driving licenses, health insurance? No consular assistance?

Donald Trump

Blueshoe wrote: »

EU have said they are willing to extend the withdrawal period by up to two years. They are very worried. 12% hole in the finances.
UK said no thanks

The oul' NHS must be making good use of that extra 350m pound a week these days too

Blueshoe

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Of course we live under the EU rule book...we decided to do that by majority.

If at any time enough people think there should be another vote (on anything) that is what happens in a democracy. There have been several votes on EU membership in the UK

Anytime we voted different we had to vote again. There are examples of other Eu countries who voted against and it was ignored.

The only ones who think there should be another vote are the ones that lost. That's not democracy. It's closer to not accepting democracy.

The last vote in which the Tory party basically wiped out the labor party tells its own story. Also the Brexit party became the biggest party in the entire Eu parliament last year.
It's done

This isn't my opinion. This actually happened in real life.

fash

Blueshoe wrote: »

EU want UK to commit to standards in various industries as to not undercut the Eu.

UK says no we don't have to stick by EU rules as we are not in Eu. Neither side budging.
Hard Brexit incoming.

Definitely think it's best for all. The UK under its current leadership needs to be brought to its knees. The UK was a basket case before it joined the EU- the quicker it's returned to that status the better.

blinding

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Of course we live under the EU rule book...we decided to do that by majority.

If at any time enough people think there should be another vote (on anything) that is what happens in a democracy. There have been several votes on EU membership in the UK

Two Votes. The first a vote about staying in the EEC ( 1974 I think off hand ). A very loose trading agreement between countries i.e. Nothing like the Eu that starting sticking its unwanted nose in this that and the other.

It was a high time the British had another Vote and they decided ; Bye Bye Eu.

Irishmale0399

Lads have I missed something here......

Were the UK not at the negociating table over the 30+ years as EU policy was being drawn up?? Did they vote against everything???
Didnt they have a special agreement that they didnt have to contribute fully???
Have the benifited from EU trade, freedom of movement and banking agreements???

The only problem they have is that they now realise that they no longer have the power to dictate at the EU table and are throwing their toys out of the pram. Let them leave, in fact kick them out and lets see where they are in the next 5 years.

FrancieBrady

Blueshoe wrote: »

Anytime we voted different we had to vote again. There are examples of other Eu countries who voted against and it was ignored.

The only ones who think there should be another vote are the ones that lost. That's not democracy. It's closer to not accepting democracy.

The last vote in which the Tory party basically wiped out the labor party tells its own story. Also the Brexit party became the biggest party in the entire Eu parliament last year.
It's done

This isn't my opinion. This actually happened in real life.

It is anti democratic to stop people lobbying for another vote. There is nothing wrong with that.
If they hit critical mass then another vote will happen...that is democracy.
The UK voted to join the EC...when enough people wanted a vote to Leave or Remain, it happened.

Democracy doesn't end just because you won something.

Donald Trump

Blueshoe wrote: »

Anytime we voted different we had to vote again. There are examples of other Eu countries who voted against and it was ignored.

The only ones who think there should be another vote are the ones that lost. That's not democracy. It's closer to not accepting democracy.

The last vote in which the Tory party basically wiped out the labor party tells its own story. Also the Brexit party became the biggest party in the entire Eu parliament last year.
It's done

This isn't my opinion. This actually happened in real life.

I assume that you are aware that people in the UK voted in the general election last year?

Even though it's a democracy people will be asked whether they still want the same representatives :eek: !!!

Doesn't sound very democratic being asked again now does it (by your rules)

blinding

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

Lads have I missed something here......

Were the UK not at the negociating table over the 30+ years as EU policy was being drawn up?? Did they vote against everything???
Didnt they have a special agreement that they didnt have to contribute fully???
Have the benifited from EU trade, freedom of movement and banking agreements???

The only problem they have is that they now realise that they no longer have the power to dictate at the EU table and are throwing their toys out of the pram. Let them leave, in fact kick them out and lets see where they are in the next 5 years.

The British Politicians and the Eu forgot to bring the British people with them.

Very Very Careless in a Democracy but as the Eu has No Respect for Democracy they didn’t see that as a problem. The same could have been said about the Eu-Phile British Politicians. Forgetting the people in a Democracy = Big Big Mistake !:eek:

fash

Blueshoe wrote: »

Anytime we voted different we had to vote again. There are examples of other Eu countries who voted against and it was ignored.

If your vote was so important, why did you change it?
Why did you change your vote on divorce or abortion?
Those were repeatedly voted on in Ireland - are you saying that reformulating a question and asking again is not legitimate?
Are you saying that the Brexit vote (given that the UK voted in the 1970's on it) was not legitimate?

The only ones who think there should be another vote are the ones that lost. That's not democracy. It's closer to not accepting democracy.

Well no - anyone who is principled but who has "won" under questionable circumstances will also want a revote. However the fact that you do not recognize such a reason suggests you would not fall into this group.

The last vote in which the Tory party basically wiped out the labor party tells its own story.

the Tories who only won 44% of the vote? Against a truly horrific Corbin? Is that story "don't allow your party to be taken over by ideological extremists"?

FrancieBrady

blinding wrote: »

Two Votes. The first a vote about staying in the EEC ( 1974 I think off hand ). A very loose trading agreement between countries i.e. Nothing like the Eu that starting sticking its unwanted nose in this that and the other.

It was a high time the British had another Vote and they decided ; Bye Bye Eu.

Typical...speak of the EU as some sinister third party. The UK was a member ffs.

blinding

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It is anti democratic to stop people lobbying for another vote. There is nothing wrong with that.
If they hit critical mass then another vote will happen...that is democracy.
The UK voted to join the EC...when enough people wanted a vote to Leave or Remain, it happened.

Democracy doesn't end just because you won something.

Good Luck with that. Did you see what happened to the Eu-Philes at the 2019 General Election = Annihilated :D

blinding

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Typical...speak of the EU as some sinister third party. The UK was a member ffs.

Forgot to bring the British people with them. More than a Tad Careless in a Democracy :D:D

Donald Trump

blinding wrote: »

The British Politicians and the Eu forgot to bring the British people with them.

Very Very Careless in a Democracy but as the Eu has No Respect for Democracy they didn’t see that as a problem. The same could have been said about the Eu-Phile British Politicians. Forgetting the people in a Democracy = Big Big Mistake !:eek:

The UK has people who represent it in it's talks with the EU. The EU must deal with those people.



If those UK representatives keep begging for extensions, it is not up to the EU to canvass individual UK voters.



As I said, if "dead in a ditch" Boris had not grovelled for an extension and transition period then the UK would be fully out from under EU rules long ago. That transition period agreement which was passed by the UK parliament after the December election!

Blueshoe

fash wrote: »

If your vote was so important, why did you change it?
Why did you change your vote on divorce or abortion?
Those were repeatedly voted on in Ireland - are you saying that reformulating a question and asking again is not legitimate?
Are you saying that the Brexit vote (given that the UK voted in the 1970's on it) was not legitimate?



Well no - anyone who is principled but who has "won" under questionable circumstances will also want a revote. However the fact that you do not recognize such a reason suggests you would not fall into this group.

the Tories who only won 44% of the vote? Against a truly horrific Corbin? Is that story "don't allow your party to be taken over by ideological extremists"?

People who lost have been calling for a second vote since the results were announced. That is not respecting democracy. We lost so we want another go.

The UK must respect the will of the people and leave the Eu. Perhaps down the line if there is enough public appetite for rejoining them there will be another vote

Irishmale0399

blinding wrote: »

The British Politicians and the Eu forgot to bring the British people with them.

Very Very Careless in a Democracy but as the Eu has No Respect for Democracy they didn’t see that as a problem. The same could have been said about the Eu-Phile British Politicians. Forgetting the people in a Democracy = Big Big Mistake !:eek:

The British government are responsible for communicating with the British people. The people of the UK elected MEPs who were there to represent them in Europe......they are the ones who didnt do their jobs. It has nothing to do with the EU.....


The problem in the UK is a homemade problem and has nothing to do with the EU. The UK were there, the MEPs elected by the people were there....it was these elected people who didnt do their jobs...the very people elected in the UK.

FrancieBrady

blinding wrote: »

Forgot to bring the British people with them. More than a Tad Careless in a Democracy :D:D

That isn't the EU's fault.

Donald Trump

FrancieBrady wrote: »

That isn't the EU's fault.

Or responsibility.


EU is a union of members. If one member wants to remain a member then it needs to convince its own people of the benefits.



If it doesn't want to remain a member then it can leave.



It is not the responsibility of German politicians, or French politicians, or Dutch politicians. to explain to someone on the dole in a housing estate in Manchester that their problems are not actually caused the evil EU!

blinding

Donald Trump wrote: »

The UK has people who represent it in it's talks with the EU. The EU must deal with those people.



If those UK representatives keep begging for extensions, it is not up to the EU to canvass individual UK voters.



As I said, if "dead in a ditch" Boris had not grovelled for an extension and transition period then the UK would be fully out from under EU rules long ago. That transition period agreement which was passed by the UK parliament after the December election!

Everything has changed since the December General Election. The Eu now is up against a Clear and Un-Ambigious Decision from the British People.

They want their Democracy Respected and they want out of the Eu. Now the Eu can respect this or not but this is the Clear and Un-Ambigious Decision of the British people.

Now, As i said the Eu does not cope well with Democracy but it had better Respect Democracy now if it wants and a deal because if it does not that is fine too.

blinding

FrancieBrady wrote: »

That isn't the EU's fault.

The Eu is good at claiming the good stuff and the bad stuff is an Eu Orphan :D