Will Britain piss off and get on with Brexit II (mod warning in OP)

Blueshoe

blinding wrote: »

And the Soul and Self Respect of Ireland and its People.

We are all pieces of Euro trash now. The push towards the dilution of nation states. A bloc ran from Brussels but controlled by the French and Germans. Ireland has lost a strong voting ally in the British.

ancapailldorcha

Leroy42 wrote: »

How can losing their own union be seen as a win?

It's a fiscal drain on the exchequer. But more than that, they simply do not care. They managed to contort themselves such that Johnson capitulating and weakening the union where his predecessors would not is now a glorious victory.

blinding

Leroy42 wrote: »

Irrelevant to the point you were trying to make. You unsaid that ditching NI would be good for GB.

Even it it were voted for, wouldn't that be the breakup of the UK?

How can losing their own union be seen as a win?

There is no upside to having Northern Ireland in the Uk. It costs a fortune. You have two tribes that have absolutely no thanks for that yearly fortune.

It would be worth it for entertainment alone to give it to Leo and the like and see how they get on with it You could not put a price on the Comedy Value of that

The British have now shown how much they value Democracy . There is no way they would stand in the way of Scotland or Northern Ireland leaving Democratically.

Funnily Enough One Third , thats One Third of SNP Voters Voted for Brexit. They don’t seem too keen on surrendering their Country to the Eu after leaving the UK. The contradiction is not lost on them.

astrofool

blinding wrote: »

There is no upside to having Northern Ireland in the Uk. It costs a fortune. You have two tribes that have absolutely no thanks for that yearly fortune.

Given the amount East Germany was bankrolled, I can imagine NI doing very well out of unification, it would see Ireland become a net beneficiary until the all island economy stabilized.

blinding

astrofool wrote: »

Given the amount East Germany was bankrolled, I can imagine NI doing very well out of unification, it would see Ireland become a net beneficiary until the all island economy stabilized.

Who is going to pay ? Particularly in the short term in these very difficult times ?

Obviously probably in 15 or 20 years the benefit should flow, everything going well. No guarantee of that of course !

ancapailldorcha

astrofool wrote: »

Given the amount East Germany was bankrolled, I can imagine NI doing very well out of unification, it would see Ireland become a net beneficiary until the all island economy stabilized.

That's not an encouraging precedent. A lot of East Germans feel hard done by compared to Germany's more prosperous West.

NI would need a significant amount of subsidies and probably a very high police presence in the short to medium term. As a Unionist, I'd be much happier in the EU under Dublin than outside under yet another shambolic Conservative government that won well below half the vote.

Padre_Pio

Blueshoe wrote: »

It's a sale. Sell your sovereignty for euro grants.

blinding wrote: »

And the Soul and Self Respect of Ireland and its People.

Blueshoe wrote: »

We are all pieces of Euro trash now. The push towards the dilution of nation states. A bloc ran from Brussels but controlled by the French and Germans. Ireland has lost a strong voting ally in the British.

What a load of bollocks.

As if anyone wants to go back to the 1970s.
We're not Switzerland.
We're not part of the Nordics.

We'd be no better off than some Eastern European countries before they joined the EU.

The rose tinted bullsh*t is astounding.

blinding

Padre_Pio wrote: »

What a load of bollocks.

As if anyone wants to go back to the 1970s.
We're not Switzerland.
We're not part of the Nordics.

We'd be no better off than some Eastern European countries before they joined the EU.

The rose tinted bullsh*t is astounding.

So Ireland would have stayed in the 1970’s

The world moved on. Countries that were not in the Eu moved on.

Did Switzerland , Iceland, Norway stay in the 1970’s or all the other Countries around the world that were not in the Eu.

Its not the 1970’s or the Eu is it ? ! At least admit that !

Padre_Pio

blinding wrote: »

So Ireland would have stayed in the 1970’s

The world moved on. Countries that were not in the Eu moved on.

Did Switzerland , Iceland, Norway stay in the 1970’s or all the other Countries around the world that were not in the Eu.

Its not the 1970’s or the Eu is it ? ! At least admit that !

I was in Krakow in 2000.
That place hadn't moved out of the 70's. I was there again in 2014. Massive changes in the 10 years they had been in the EU.

What makes Ireland so special that we would have thrived alone in the world without the EU? We were a small country, with zero infrastructure, poor industry, inefficient agriculture, zero FDI, and a massive emigration problem.

What would we have to offer?

blinding

Padre_Pio wrote: »

I was in Krakow in 2000.
That place hadn't moved out of the 70's. I was there again in 2014. Massive changes in the 10 years they had been in the EU.

What makes Ireland so special that we would have thrived alone in the world without the EU? We were a small country, with zero infrastructure, poor industry, inefficient agriculture, zero FDI, and a massive emigration problem.

What would we have to offer?

At least be honest about it; Its not the 1970’s or the Eu is it ?

Padre_Pio

blinding wrote: »

At least be honest about it; Its not the 1970’s or the Eu is it ?

It is most definitely the benefits of the EU

blinding

Padre_Pio wrote: »

It is most definitely the benefits of the EU

The choice is not the 1970’s or the Eu though. Be honest about it because when such a ridiculous thing is said it is just ridiculous.

The Republic of Ireland joined the Eu in 1972. There was not huge improvements until the early to mid 1990’s. There was in fact huge immigration in the 1980’s.

Ireland and Britain joined the EEC which was a loose trading organisation.

The Eu grew into something completely different to what the British People Voted to stay in in 1974.

The British people never wanted what the Eu has become and that is why now when they are not happy with that, they decide Democratically to leave the Eu.

Bye Bye Eu.

First Up

blinding wrote: »

The choice is not the 1970’s or the Eu though. Be honest about it because when such a ridiculous thing is said it is just ridiculous.

The Republic of Ireland joined the Eu in 1972. There was not huge improvements until the early to mid 1990’s. There was in fact huge immigration in the 1980’s.

Ireland and Britain joined the EEC which was a loose trading organisation.

The Eu grew into something completely different to what the British People Voted to stay in in 1974.

The British people never wanted what the Eu has become and that is why now when they are not happy with that, they decide Democratically to leave the Eu.

Bye Bye Eu.

And don't forget your hat.

ancapailldorcha

Blueshoe wrote: »

We are all pieces of Euro trash now. The push towards the dilution of nation states. A bloc ran from Brussels but controlled by the French and Germans. Ireland has lost a strong voting ally in the British.

I don't know if this is supposed to be edgy or provocative or whatever but all it really does is make Europhobic people look silly.

First Up

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I don't know if this is supposed to be edgy or provocative or whatever but all it really does is make Europhobic people look silly.

Well there have been issue and policies on which Ireland and the UK had common ground. But we never depended on the UK to back us up and have always fostered relations and alliances with countries all across the Union, even more so since the Brexit vote.

There has always been a huge amount of horse trading within EU institutions and between members and we have a pretty good track record in doing it.

ancapailldorcha

First Up wrote: »

Well there have been issue and policies on which Ireland and the UK had common ground. But we never depended on the UK to back us up and have always fostered relations and alliances with countries all across the Union, even more so since the Brexit vote.

There has always been a huge amount of horse trading within EU institutions and between members and we have a pretty good track record in doing it.

The UK, according to Tony Connelly at least was an important diplomatic ally for Ireland, Denmark and the Netherlands in particular. It doesn't benefit Ireland to do this as other EU countries have their own agendas while a pro-business British government was never too fussed about Ireland's low corporation tax rate and regime. Losing the UK cements Franco-German dominance. The EU is better off with the UK in it in my opinion.

theological

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I don't know if this is supposed to be edgy or provocative or whatever but all it really does is make Europhobic people look silly.

Europhobic is a disingenuous term. It makes it sound like Eurosceptics hate Europe. I don't. I love Europe. I just don't think we need a bureaucratic supernational institution like the European Union in order to work together peaceably.

fash

blinding wrote: »

If you want to leave the Uk now you can do it Democratically just like the Uk left the Eu.

Democracy is wonderful and any Country that would give up its Democracy for the Eu would have lost the plot ! ! !

Perhaps you should say that to the Tories - who refuse to countenance such independence attempts.

Jizique

theological wrote: »

Europhobic is a disingenuous term. It makes it sound like Eurosceptics hate Europe. I don't. I love Europe. I just don't think we need a bureaucratic supernational institution like the European Union in order to work together peaceably.

You don’t, but it makes it significantly easier in terms of trade, which is why Thatcher was so keen on the Single Market.
You can continue to love Europe, it’s products, it’s culture, it’s food - just don’t expect Europe to make access to that market as easy as it currently is. Simples. Third country status.

fash

Blueshoe wrote: »

We are all pieces of Euro trash now. The push towards the dilution of nation states. A bloc ran from Brussels but controlled by the French and Germans. Ireland has lost a strong voting ally in the British.

An "ally" which recently threatened to starve Ireland, to prevent medical supplies from arriving, engaged in a national and international racist propaganda campaign against Ireland, threatened economic sanctions and to withdraw CTA rights if we didn't kneel before their attempt to beach even the GFA? That ally?

ancapailldorcha

theological wrote: »

Europhobic is a disingenuous term. It makes it sound like Eurosceptics hate Europe. I don't. I love Europe. I just don't think we need a bureaucratic supernational institution like the European Union in order to work together peaceably.

They certainly hate the EU and centuries of European history dictate otherwise. So the term is completely legitimate IMO.

theological

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

They certainly hate the EU and centuries of European history dictate otherwise. So the term is completely legitimate IMO.

Disliking the EU != Disliking Europe.

I dislike the European Union, but I love Europe. They aren't mutually exclusive. Note, I don't "hate" the European Union. That is too strong a word.

Using the term "Europhobic" is therefore dishonest because it intentionally confuses the two things as being identical when they are not.

Donald Trump

fash wrote: »

An "ally" which recently threatened to starve Ireland, to prevent medical supplies from arriving, engaged in a national and international racist propaganda campaign against Ireland, threatened economic sanctions and to withdraw CTA rights if we didn't kneel before their attempt to beach even the GFA? That ally?

They would have been an ally in the sense that their interests would often happen to be aligned with the interests of Ireland. I don't think in the sense that they would push for a situation where Ireland benefited but it was not the optimum for the UK

RobMc59

Donald Trump wrote: »

They would have been an ally in the sense that their interests would often happen to be aligned with the interests of Ireland. I don't think in the sense that they would push for a situation where Ireland benefited but it was not the optimum for the UK

Don`t all countries do that?

fash

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Leroy42

theological wrote: »

Europhobic is a disingenuous term. It makes it sound like Eurosceptics hate Europe. I don't. I love Europe. I just don't think we need a bureaucratic supernational institution like the European Union in order to work together peaceably.

I assume you dislike the UK based on the same conditions.

theological

Leroy42 wrote: »

I assume you dislike the UK based on the same conditions.

Why would I dislike the UK? Moving here has been pretty good for me and I'm pretty thankful for it.

I guess you're going to give some analogy to try convince me that the UK is the same if not highly similar to the EU? I'm not convinced of that notion but you can give it a shot.

Blueshoe

fash wrote: »

An "ally" which recently threatened to starve Ireland, to prevent medical supplies from arriving, engaged in a national and international racist propaganda campaign against Ireland, threatened economic sanctions and to withdraw CTA rights if we didn't kneel before their attempt to beach even the GFA? That ally?

Wasn't that just the views of one Mp?
For example if Michael Healy Rae makes comments about God controling the weather is that considered national policy?

Come on.

Ireland has lost a strong voting ally.

Donald Trump

RobMc59 wrote: »

Don`t all countries do that?

Yes. Just making the point that people who say that it would have been better for Irish interests to have the UK in the EU as an "ally" are not incorrect but that it is not necessarily out of a sense of generosity or whatever you want to call it.



Sometimes, countries will do things that are not in their immediate best interests out of loyalty to others. For example. the UK went into Iraq on the coattails of the US.

ancapailldorcha

theological wrote: »

Disliking the EU != Disliking Europe.

I dislike the European Union, but I love Europe. They aren't mutually exclusive. Note, I don't "hate" the European Union. That is too strong a word.

Using the term "Europhobic" is therefore dishonest because it intentionally confuses the two things as being identical when they are not.

If you're going to start inventing claims I never made then there's no point responding to you.