Will Britain piss off and get on with Brexit II (mod warning in OP)

nhoj88

blinding wrote: »

The Irish Political establishment are bought and paid for by Brussels.

Their Country and People Sold and all well before the 100 year anniversary of 1916 and well before the 100 year anniversary of Partial Irish Independence.

Was it for this that Thomas Clarke and James Connolly fought and sacrificed their lives ? ?

Britain(England) colonised(pillaged) 24% of this earth by the early 20th century and WAS a global power. By the late 21st century it will not even rule its own island as the Scottish will have left the UK. When will English schools teach their true history instead of the 18th century ****e they still do today? This is what has led to the current situation they find themselves in "Make Britain great again":pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:
They need to wake up and realise they are NOT the world power/super colony they once were and will get nowhere demanding trade deals with the likes of Japan with very little to offer who will walk away from the table due to the English "world power" mindset, especially if the EU decide to add tariffs on anyone who becomes a trade partner of theirs. America/trump was stirring the pot to have the UK leave the EU to weaken it against America, not to have some super trade deal with the UK like you gob****es think.

Your ''democracy" will be very small by the end of this century I think.

fash

blinding wrote: »

As I said its easy to buy Political establishments.

If you think that- then why give them even more power!?

blinding

I wouldn’t bet the farm on the Scots leaving.

One third, thats one third of SNP Voters voted for Brexit. Thats a lot of their Voters who are no lovers of the Eu ! ! !

fash

blinding wrote: »

The Irish Political establishment are bought and paid for by Brussels.

Their Country and People Sold and all well before the 100 year anniversary of 1916 and well before the 100 year anniversary of Partial Irish Independence.

Was it for this that Thomas Clarke and James Connolly fought and sacrificed their lives ? ?

Yes that was exactly what they sacrificed their lives for - no longer being a slave to British sociopathic whims and meeting our European friends in as equals.

Donald Trump

blinding wrote: »

The Eu Parliament ; Many Many times.

It was very funny when the likes of Mairead McGuinness ( she who had the amnesia about her insurance claim, yet another Fg-er with an insurance claim )

Told the British they could not wave their flags even though they were waving goodbye:D:D:D

Of course it was alright for the Eu-phile Anti-democrats Lib Dems to wear offensive shirts. A strange type of democracy that Eu parliament. If you are a yes man / woman, different rules applied :eek::eek::eek:

He was the most affective MEP ever and by miles and miles.

The rest built up the expenses such as 300 Euro a day in un-vouched for expenses and every other bribe the Eu could come up with for them.

Was Nigel farage not leaving the Eu, He should have been made President of the Eu:D:D:D:D:D

Blinding,


Have a deep breath and think for a minute. How did the UK achieve their Brexit? Remember it was by referendum.
How did they convince the EU to allow them to leave -> They didn't have to.


How did they convince the EU parliament or other bodies to allow them to run this referendum -> They didn't because that was a matter internal to the UK and nothing to do with the EU.



So how did Farage beat "the EU"? He got elected to the European Parliament, but to represent UK voters. It is unlikely that any French or Italian politicians had an eye on that seat or ran for election seat for that seat and were beaten by him.


What changes did he make in his role as MEP which allowed the election to happen? -> None. Anything that he might have "achieved" as nothing to do with his role in the EU parliament. He could have done whatever he did without ever being elected as an MEP.



If you think that any of the above is wrong, then just point out one thing that was necessary for "victory" that would have been legally or procedurally impossible, had Nige not been an MEP. One EU law that he got passed to allow it. One treaty or permission that he obtained by "beating" someone else in the EU.


You need to understand that it was all internal to the UK. And the UK always had the power and authority to make those decisions. They only ever pretended that the EU was some kind of bogeyman in order to trick their own electorate. It might take you a few years to realise this or maybe you never will.

fash

theological wrote: »

Brexit is a modest proposition. It is simply that all policy decisions concerning the United Kingdom should be made by those in the United Kingdom rather than in Brussels.
.

That's not on the table however. Brexit itself was formulated in Russia and the US. After Brexit, UK's policy decisions will be made in Brussels, Washington & Moscow - except now not only with the UK not be present or have a voice, those decisions will be made to the disadvantage the UK.
Rather pathetic to be honest.

fash

blinding wrote: »

Told the British they could not wave their flags even though they were waving goodbye:D:D:D

Why the need to lie so much? The rules against national flag waving in the EU parliament are there for a reason - Farage & his minions sought to create as much ill will as possible. You should applaud their efforts & their ingenuity in doing so - not trying to hide it or down play it. Revel in it - revel in your hatred - you deserve it.

The rest built up the expenses such as 300 Euro a day in un-vouched for expenses and every other bribe the Eu could come up with for them.

Farage not only sucked everything he could out of the EU- he swindled it for at least tens of thousands! What a hero.

blinding

fash wrote: »

Why the need to lie so much? The rules against national flag waving in the EU parliament are there for a reason - Farage & his minions sought to create as much ill will as possible. You should applaud their efforts & their ingenuity in doing so - not trying to hide it or down play it. Revel in it - revel in your hatred - you deserve it.



Farage not only sucked everything he could out of the EU- he swindled it for at least tens of thousands! What a hero.

Princess Mairead of Brussels did not pull the Lib Dems for antics that should not have been allowed but of course they were Eu Sycophants. If you sucked Eu dick you got a pass for a lot of stuff

So Farage cannot claim the same as every other Eu MEP ! ! !

He was by far the most affective so was worth at least 20 of the others anyway:D:D

blinding

fash wrote: »

Yes that was exactly what they sacrificed their lives for - no longer being a slave to British sociopathic whims and meeting our European friends in as equals.

Get off our knees to the British to go back down again for the Eu.

Our Irish Scum Politicians would do anything the Eu ordered including Eu Anal Lick Cleaning. Thomas Clarke and James Connolly would put them against the Wall and fooking riddle them.

Dirty quislings bought for their 13 pieces of Silver. They would have been informers during 1916 and the War of Independence. Irish Scum.

blinding

fash wrote: »

That's not on the table however. Brexit itself was formulated in Russia and the US. After Brexit, UK's policy decisions will be made in Brussels, Washington & Moscow - except now not only with the UK not be present or have a voice, those decisions will be made to the disadvantage the UK.
Rather pathetic to be honest.

The Russians are fierce busy altogether;););););)

If Hillary was not so stupid as to be having a Giant Party with Celebrities a week “ BEFORE “ the Election and had gone to the “ IMPORTANT SWING STATES “ she probably would have been President. But thats arrogance for Ya:D:D:D

If Re-mainers and the Eu were not so cocky and arrogant in Britain then they may not have lost. But ya know what cocky and arrogance gets ya = Sweet Fook All :D:D

Donald Trump

blinding wrote: »

Get off our knees to the British to go back down again for the Eu.

Our Irish Scum Politicians would do anything the Eu ordered including Eu Anal Lick Cleaning. Thomas Clarke and James Connolly would put them against the Wall and fooking riddle them.

Dirty quisling bought for their 13 pieces of Silver. They would have been informers during 1916 and the War of Independence. Irish Scum.

Are you ok? Do you think that maybe it might be good to talk to someone? A professional I mean

theological

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Just not the 400 million people who live there in the EU? I don't buy this common Brexiter lie. For many Brexit was a method of expressing their Europhobic spite albiet derived from years of densely absorbing anti-EU propaganda via the British press and media.

There was much gloating at the expectation that Britain leaving the EU would precipitate its collapse. Brexiters couldn't just be happy about Britain leaving the EU they wanted to see it fall apart and if that caused economic devastation all the better.

I don't mind if you don't believe what I say but I don't know how it is conducive to a discussion to say that you don't believe I hold a position I state.

The EU is a political bloc. Europe is a continent. The difference is obvious.

Donald Trump wrote: »

Do you think that the UK remove itself from all the UN bodies and NATO?
They will need to also remove themselves from any other agreement. Climate accords etc. if they don't like the idea of signing up to deals where other countries have input.

The UK had a seat at the table in Europe for every decision that was taken that could have affected them. The only difference now is that they will be a decision taker with no say in the matter. They can only make a binary decision whether to accept or reject any deal along the way. They will have no power or influence in formulating any decision.

The UK is a sovereign actor in these organisations. The UK doesn't go to war without it being debated in parliament for example.

The EU has a larger scope than the UN or NATO and requires national sovereignty to be ceded in a lot of areas.

The debate over whether or not the UK should be in the EU is irrelevant to me at this point because the UK has already left the European Union. The primary question that remain is whether or not the UK can secure its status as a third country outside of it. For example will the UK be a state that is similar to Norway status (unlikely given the governments stance on it), or will it be more like Canada, or will it be completely outside on WTO terms.

blinding

blinding wrote: »

Get off our knees to the British to go back down again for the Eu.

Our Irish Scum Politicians would do anything the Eu ordered including Eu Anal Lick Cleaning. Thomas Clarke and James Connolly would put them against the Wall and fooking riddle them.

Dirty quislings bought for their 13 pieces of Silver. They would have been informers during 1916 and the War of Independence. Irish Scum.

Your a great advertisement for the irexit parties.

The two English leaders of the 1916 rising that you mentioned would be considered dirty foreigners by most of the leadership of one particular irexit style party if they were around today.

Donald Trump

theological wrote: »

I don't mind if you don't believe what I say but I don't know how it is conducive to a discussion to say that you don't believe I hold a position I state.

The EU is a political bloc. Europe is a continent. The difference is obvious.



The UK is a sovereign actor in these organisations. The UK doesn't go to war without it being debated in parliament for example.

The EU has a larger scope than the UN or NATO and requires national sovereignty to be ceded in a lot of areas.

The debate over whether or not the UK should be in the EU is irrelevant to me at this point because the UK has already left the European Union. The primary question that remain is whether or not the UK can secure its status as a third country outside of it. For example will the UK be a state that is similar to Norway status (unlikely given the governments stance on it), or will it be more like Canada, or will it be completely outside on WTO terms.

The UK had a veto in every major change to the structure of the EU.

Even Ireland had this. We held up the implementation of the Lisbon treaty for about a year. If the second referendum hadn't passed, then it wouldn't have went ahead.



When the UK goes to a global meeting on setting targets for CO2 emission reductions for example, it is extremely unlikely that the targets agreed perfectly match what the UK would have unilaterally chosen before the meeting. So they discuss and eventually agree based on what other countries want. UK want a 5% reduction target, Germany wants 10%, China wants 1%...they eventually settle on 3%. Happy days.

EU are discussing a tax on financial transactions. UK want 0%, Germany want's 5%, France wants 6%, eventually agree on 3%.....suddenly now it's the bogeyman EU decreasing their sovereignty!



The UK had permanent representatives in the EU. And the other countries also had representatives. All represented their respective countries. They go and meet and discuss and try to make improvements/progress. The UK had the same sovereign powers in an EU meeting as they would have in a NATO meeting (more so due to the blanket veto.). The UK media seem to portrayed the system as the EU being a belligerent foreign behemoth coming in and attacking plucky little GB!

eagle eye

Seth Brundle wrote:

...and how would a UI stop you doing that and a "united" UK would facilitate it?

A UI will cost a fortune and we'll be paying for it in taxes for years.

blinding

blinding wrote: »

Had the Maastricht Treaty been put to the British people in the 1990’s they would have put a stop to it then and there. The British People have always been more Eu-Sceptic that the Politicians. Some of the Politicians can be bought by big jobs in Europe Look at the Kinnocks as an example. The wages, expenses, Gold Plated pensions, pay offs when leaving jobs is just a method of buying the political establishments in Countries. How hard is it to buy FFG / Irish Labour Party for example ! Easy Peasy.

Had any of these previous Treaties been put to the British people they would have stopped them in their Tracks.

Anyway thankfully for the British they managed to get out Democratically. Isn’t that Brilliant.

You should be campaigning for a formal British constitution, and referenda when it is amended, if you think the lack of that is what trapped British voters in the EU for decades longer than they wanted.

How you love British democracy after what you just posted in beyond me. You shlt all over it in this post and then champion it in other posts.

Peregrinus

theological wrote: »

. . .The debate over whether or not the UK should be in the EU is irrelevant to me at this point because the UK has already left the European Union. The primary question that remain is whether or not the UK can secure its status as a third country outside of it. For example will the UK be a state that is similar to Norway status (unlikely given the governments stance on it), or will it be more like Canada, or will it be completely outside on WTO terms.

All three situations that you mention are completely outside the EU. Norway is completely outside the EU; Canada is completely outside the EU; China (to take an example of a country that trades with the EU on (near-)WTO terms is wholly outside the EU. The UK's "status as a third country outside [the EU]" has already been secured. It was secured on 31 January 2020, as you point out yourself.

You are confusing being in the EU with having a treaty or agreement with the EU - specifically, having any treaty or agreement deals with trade, and secures more favourable trading terms than can would be available under WTO rules. There's a legitimate discussion to be had about what the UK does or does not want in such a treaty, and what it would or would not concede in order to obtation what it wants, but none of it has anything to do with whether the UK should be in the EU, or should be a third country. That is not an issue in the current talks; the UK is a third country. It is not seeking EU membership, and the EU isn't offering EU membership.

It's a serious error to think that only a bare WTO relationship will result in the UK being "completely outside" the EU. That's a confusion which can only be ruinous to the UK's interests.

blinding

Deleted User wrote: »

You should be campaigning for a formal British constitution, and referenda when it is amended, if you think the lack of that is what trapped British voters in the EU for decades longer than they wanted.

How you love British democracy after what you just posted in beyond me. You shlt all over it in this post and then champion it in other posts.

Democracy got it right in the End.The British people ( the important people in a Democracy wanted their Country out of the Eu )

Yes, it took longer than it should but it got their in the End.

Its the Politicians that were not Democrats , Not the People.

Didn’t Pat Rabbite tell us that you tell the people any auld bull$hit at Elections. Then horse trade about in coalition talks i.e. After the Election the Politicians do as they please. Now, Do you think Pat Rabbite has even an iota of respect for D:eek::eek:Democracy ! ! !

Its the Politicians that are showing No Respect for Democracy. Look at how many fraudulently stole their seats at the 2017 General Election in Britain i.e. saying they would Respect the Referendum Result and after the Election doing the direct opposite. The Democratic electorate dealt with them in the 2019 Election.

The Royalty of Brussels are also no respecters of Democracy e.g. Tusk attitude to the Democratic Vote of a Nation State.

All of this together ended with; Bye Bye Eu.

KildareP

blinding wrote: »

Has there ever been a More Successful Politician in Europe or the World.

His political lifes Work Achieved.

How many Irish Politicians achieve anything bar pension accumulations.

He beat the Eu for British people = Democratic Win.

He beat the British establishment = Democratic Win

He beat the BBC / Channel 4 = Democratic win

He beat many of the British newspapers. Pretty much everyone bar the Telegraph / Express were against him

Those were big wins and against the odds.

Mighty Victories.

It says a lot though that the British public were happy to send him and his crew off to the EU time after time but not so willing to let him into Westminster.

He is a career rabble rouser. Beyond disruptive grandstanding in the EU (while the cameras are rolling, of course) he offers (offered?) nothing whatsoever to it.

It's ironic that fishing serves such a prominent sticking point in current negotiations and fishing was one of his portfolios yet he never bothered to show up to the majority of those meetings.

Easier to blame "the unelected bureaucrats" in the EU than actually do anything about it. You'll not see him admit that the reason so many "foreigners" fish UK waters is because the UK sold their quotas off to the highest bidder either!

blinding

KildareP wrote: »

It says a lot though that the British public were happy to send him and his crew off to the EU time after time but not so willing to let him into Westminster.

He is a career rabble rouser. Beyond disruptive grandstanding in the EU (while the cameras are rolling, of course) he offers (offered?) nothing whatsoever to it.

It's ironic that fishing serves such a prominent sticking point in current negotiations and fishing was one of his portfolios yet he never bothered to show up to the majority of those meetings.

Easier to blame "the unelected bureaucrats" in the EU than actually do anything about it. You'll not see him admit that the reason so many "foreigners" fish UK waters is because the UK sold their quotas off to the highest bidder either!

Now the British Politicians will have to run their own Country. Which is exactly what the British Electorate Wanted / Voted for. Well done Democracy.

KildareP

blinding wrote: »

Now the British Politicians will have to run their own Country. Which is exactly what the British Electorate Wanted / Voted for. Well done Democracy.

Time to get on with it then.

Blaming the EU for facts and realities they don't like is not classed as running the country.

Leroy42

blinding wrote: »

Now the British Politicians will have to run their own Country. Which is exactly what the British Electorate Wanted / Voted for. Well done Democracy.

You want these undemocratic, easily bought people to have control?

It would appear that the core of the problem lies with the politicians and that you feel that democracy is a sham.

blinding

Leroy42 wrote: »

You want these undemocratic, easily bought people to have control?

It would appear that the core of the problem lies with the politicians and that you feel that democracy is a sham.

You do realise that the British Electorate kicked out most / a lot of the Anti-Democratic Politicians in the December 2019 General Election.

A Very Good Move if you want to keep Democracy in your Country.

Who knew that Anti-Democratic Politicians are a danger to Democracy :eek::eek:

Peregrinus

blinding wrote: »

You do realise that the British Electorate kicked out most / a lot of the Anti-Democratic Politicians in the December 2019 General Election.

Not at all. Anti-democratic politicians in the last parliament, who refused to respect the referendum result and repeatedly voted to block the implementation of Brexit, were not only returned to parliament in significant numbers but now dominate the government.

In fairness, we can't blame the electorate for that; they voted by a significant margin against that outcome - rather more voters opposed them than opposed EU membership in 2016 - but an antidemocratic electoral system has delivered a signficant majority to the antidemocratic politicians that the electorate rejected.

Antidemocrats rejoice at this outcome, but you'd expect that.

blinding

Peregrinus wrote: »

Not at all. Anti-democratic politicians in the last parliament, who refused to respect the referendum result and repeatedly voted to block the implementation of Brexit, were not only returned to parliament in significant numbers but now dominate the government.

In fairness, we can't blame the electorate for that; they voted by a significant margin against that outcome - rather more voters opposed them than opposed EU membership in 2016 - but an antidemocratic electoral system has delivered a signficant majority to the antidemocratic politicians that the electorate rejected.

Antidemocrats rejoice at this outcome, but you'd expect that.

The Democratic Brexit referendum result is now being Respected.

The Eu-Philes Liberal Democrats and Change Uk took one hell of a beating so bad that Jo Swinson has not been seen since Election Night. Change Uk = Down the Toilet of Democracy.

Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour party after changing their policy of Respecting the Brexit Referendum = Their worst result since 1935 and it could have been a lot worse if Nigel Farage had withdrawn from another 20 or 30 Labour Marginals.

Your Anti Democratic boys and girls took one hell of a beating. They also delivered an 80 seat Majority of Tory MPs. The most Eu-Sceptic MPs ever.

People do not like their Democracy being Dis-Respected = December 2019 General Election = those that did not respect the Democracy of their Country = Out on their Ar$e! ! !

Leroy42

blinding wrote: »

The Democratic Brexit referendum result is now being Respected.

The Eu-Philes Liberal Democrats and Change Uk took one hell of a beating so bad that Jo Swinson has not been seen since Election Night. Change Uk = Down the Toilet of Democracy.

Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour party after changing their policy of Respecting the Brexit Referendum = Their worst result since 1935 and it could have been a lot worse if Nigel Farage had withdrawn from another 20 or 30 Labour Marginals.

Your Anti Democratic boys and girls took one hell of a beating. They also delivered an 80 seat Majority of Tory MPs. The most Eu-Sceptic MPs ever.

People do not like their Democracy being Dis-Respected = December 2019 General Election = those that did not respect the Democracy of their Country = Out on their Ar$e! ! !

It was always being respected. The issue was, and remains, what does Brexit mean. To some it means complete breakaway, regardless of the implications, to others it meant leaving the club but keeping the benefits, to others it meant 350m pw for the NHS.

TM offered a version of Brexit, but the vast majority of MPs decided, without asking the people, that it wasn't good enough.

Johnson then got a very similar deal, which the public overwhelmingly (44%) voted for.

But now Johnson appears to be suggesting that No Deal is actually want they want with no extension again without asking the people. The WA had the provision for an extension so it seems reasonable that if people are in favour of the WA they are in favour of an extension.

theological

Peregrinus wrote: »

All three situations that you mention are completely outside the EU. Norway is completely outside the EU; Canada is completely outside the EU; China (to take an example of a country that trades with the EU on (near-)WTO terms is wholly outside the EU. The UK's "status as a third country outside [the EU]" has already been secured. It was secured on 31 January 2020, as you point out yourself.

You are confusing being in the EU with having a treaty or agreement with the EU - specifically, having any treaty or agreement deals with trade, and secures more favourable trading terms than can would be available under WTO rules. There's a legitimate discussion to be had about what the UK does or does not want in such a treaty, and what it would or would not concede in order to obtation what it wants, but none of it has anything to do with whether the UK should be in the EU, or should be a third country. That is not an issue in the current talks; the UK is a third country. It is not seeking EU membership, and the EU isn't offering EU membership.

It's a serious error to think that only a bare WTO relationship will result in the UK being "completely outside" the EU. That's a confusion which can only be ruinous to the UK's interests.

The Norway option is an option. It just happens to be a terrible option. I've explained why in previous posts on this thread.

Brexit must mean a regaining of control from the EU. This is why I'd prefer a WTO exit over the Norway option any day of the week.

Now, do I want a WTO exit? No, but if the EU are not willing to give an acceptable middle way to the UK between it and the Norway option I'd say that the UK should take the WTO option and regain control over handing over control to the EU again.

blinding

Leroy42 wrote: »

It was always being respected. The issue was, and remains, what does Brexit mean. To some it means complete breakaway, regardless of the implications, to others it meant leaving the club but keeping the benefits, to others it meant 350m pw for the NHS.

TM offered a version of Brexit, but the vast majority of MPs decided, without asking the people, that it wasn't good enough.

Johnson then got a very similar deal, which the public overwhelmingly (44%) voted for.

But now Johnson appears to be suggesting that No Deal is actually want they want with no extension again without asking the people. The WA had the provision for an extension so it seems reasonable that if people are in favour of the WA they are in favour of an extension.

It certainly means out of the Eu to the British people now. The more the British People saw of the Eu the less they liked it. The British People were never interested in this closer and closer Union.

They now want to be an Independent Country and to have their Elected Government running their own Country

timetogo1

blinding wrote: »

It certainly means out of the Eu to the British people now. The more the British People saw of the Eu the less they liked it. The British People were never interested in this closer and closer Union.

Would I be correct in assuming that you don't speak for all British people?

blinding wrote: »

They now want to be an Independent Country and to have their Elected Government running their own Country

So they now want what they already have and always had.
Do they not have better aspirations than that?

Professor Moriarty

blinding wrote: »

It certainly means out of the Eu to the British people now. The more the British People saw of the Eu the less they liked it. The British People were never interested in this closer and closer Union.

They now want to be an Independent Country and to have their Elected Government running their own Country

It's obvious that they're not going to get what they want. They can blame the EU...intransigence...ideology....yadda yadda. Whoever is at fault, there's going to be no agreement. Why prolong matters? What's the point of talking anymore? Why not just leave now?