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Will Britain piss off and get on with Brexit II (mod warning in OP)

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    #2402
    ILoveYourVibes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,182 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    It's obvious that they're not going to get what they want. They can blame the EU...intransigence...ideology....yadda yadda. Whoever is at fault, there's going to be no agreement. Why prolong matters? What's the point of talking anymore? Why not just leave now?


    Technically have they not already left? This is the transition period I thought that ends in December?

    Is this not correct?


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    #2403
    timetogo1
    Registered Users Posts: 862 ✭✭✭timetogo1


    theological wrote: »
    Now, do I want a WTO exit? No, but if the EU are not willing to give an acceptable middle way to the UK between it and the Norway option I'd say that the UK should take the WTO option and regain control over handing over control to the EU again.

    I think that what the UK never understood is that in negotiations you give up something to gain something else. That what they did with the EU, that's what the negotiations are for now and that's what the negotiations will be with the US / any other country that the UK wants to do business with.

    Of course the UK can keep all of their control, nobody's forcing them to do business with any other countries / blocs. In that case WTO is the way to go. It's expensive though.

    The trouble is, that the UK is small compared to who it's trying to trade with, so they're never going to get deals that are more in their favour than the other parties. But that's life. They still don't really understand this bit. I think it'll be several years before they figure it out as a country. But that's for them to do and nobody's stopping them, although they will blame everybody else when or if it goes pear shaped.


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    #2404
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 14,371 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    ILoveYourVibes wrote: »
    Technically have they not already left? This is the transition period I thought that ends in December?

    Is this not correct?

    Yes, but they still have freedom of movement, regulatory alignment, no tariffs etc. Nothing stopping them walking away from those today.


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    #2405
    blinding
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭blinding


    timetogo1 wrote: »



    So they now want what they already have and always had.
    Do they not have better aspirations than that?

    Its the British People's perception / belief / desire on this that counts.

    They made their choice on their perception / belief / desire.

    It is their Country, their Democracy, their Choice. They made their decision and confirmatory decisions in the following elections.

    Now, if British people were telling you that you were daft to be pro Eu then you would get very uppity about that and correctly so.

    They are a Sovereign Independent Nation State and they have made their Decision. That Decision should be respected as should the Democracy of their Country. They certainly decided that the Democracy of their Country should be Respected.


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    #2406
    blinding
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭blinding


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    It's obvious that they're not going to get what they want. They can blame the EU...intransigence...ideology....yadda yadda. Whoever is at fault, there's going to be no agreement. Why prolong matters? What's the point of talking anymore? Why not just leave now?
    I certainly would advise them to leave immediately.


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    #2407
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 14,371 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    blinding wrote: »
    I certainly would advise them to leave immediately.

    I wouldn't if I were British.


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    #2408
    blinding
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭blinding


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    I wouldn't if I were British.
    I don’t believe that they are concerned about what you think. They made their Democratic Decision and showed in the December General election that they are very happy with it !


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    #2409
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 14,371 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    blinding wrote: »
    I don’t believe that they are concerned about what you think. They made their Democratic Decision and showed in the December General election that they are very happy with it !

    What do I think?


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    #2410
    Blueshoe
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,964 ✭✭✭Blueshoe


    Did anyone watch the documentary on Netflix about Cambridge analytica who were involved in the Trump and Brexit campaigns?


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    #2411
    blinding
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭blinding


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    What do I think?
    I accept their Democratic Decision to leave the Eu and its good that they are more than happy with that Decision. Its very good when Democracy works.


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    #2412
    blinding
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭blinding


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    What do I think?


    Maybe you should tell us ! I actually misread that :o:o:D


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    #2413
    Leroy42
    Registered Users Posts: 15,616 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    blinding wrote: »
    I accept their Democratic Decision to leave the Eu and its good that they are more than happy with that Decision. Its very good when Democracy works.

    Absolutely, I would think that the vast majority on this thread would be in favour of democracy.

    But they have left, so democracy clearly works within the EU, so not sure what your point is.


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    #2414
    blinding
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭blinding


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    Absolutely, I would think that the vast majority on this thread would be in favour of democracy.

    But they have left, so democracy clearly works within the EU, so not sure what your point is.
    Great when Democracy works. But a lot of Anti-Democratic Politicians had to be got rid of for that Democracy to work.

    It is a lesson to all Countries. You have to be very careful if your Politicians do not Respect the democracy of your Country.

    Is Pat Rabbite a Democrat ? Remember when he said you tell the Electorate ( the important people in a Democracy, but obviously not to Pat ) any auld bollix doing Election Campaigns and you carry on regardless afterwards. Is Pat really a Democrat or pretending to be one ? ?


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    #2415
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 14,371 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    blinding wrote: »
    Maybe you should tell us ! I actually misread that :o:o:D

    I think the Tories should ask for an extension and blame it on the pandemic. At the very least, it would allow them to prepare more fully for crashing out. But I'm not British so I'd like them to go now. In the context of the EU, they're just a festering boil now.


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    #2416
    ILoveYourVibes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,182 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    Yes, but they still have freedom of movement, regulatory alignment, no tariffs etc. Nothing stopping them walking away from those today.

    Oh i agree and they are 'supposed to' in Dec.
    They won't walk away from them. We know they won't. They have zero power now. The EU is calling the shots.


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    #2417
    Leroy42
    Registered Users Posts: 15,616 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    blinding wrote: »
    Great when Democracy works. But a lot of Anti-Democratic Politicians had to be got rid of for that Democracy to work.

    It is a lesson to all Countries. You have to be very careful if your Politicians do not Respect the democracy of your Country.

    Is Pat Rabbite a Democrat ? Remember when he said you tell the Electorate ( the important people in a Democracy, but obviously not to Pat ) any auld bollix doing Election Campaigns and you carry on regardless afterwards. Is Pat really a Democrat or pretending to be one ? ?

    But the EU is democratic. The UK were allowed to leave, based on a vote, we recently had EU elections. Is it your assertion that the EU is less democratic, rather than undemocratic?


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    #2418
    ILoveYourVibes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,182 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    I think the Tories should ask for an extension and blame it on the pandemic. At the very least, it would allow them to prepare more fully for crashing out. But I'm not British so I'd like them to go now. In the context of the EU, they're just a festering boil now.

    I don't think they will. They were elected on the basis of 'Let's get Brexit done'. And their support is there. They are going through a bad pr time.


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    #2419
    Leroy42
    Registered Users Posts: 15,616 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    ILoveYourVibes wrote: »
    I don't think they will. They were elected on the basis of 'Let's get Brexit done'. And their support is there. They are going through a bad pr time.

    But again, just as they were 4 years ago, Brecit is not defined. Why sign a WA, with all the included obligations, just to walk away with nothing?

    And within the WA is a provision for an extension, so it can be argued that inherent in the vote to get Brexit done was the acceptance that it may involve an extension. That is seemingly being ignored


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    #2420
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,511 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    theological wrote: »
    The Norway option is an option. It just happens to be a terrible option. I've explained why in previous posts on this thread.

    Brexit must mean a regaining of control from the EU. This is why I'd prefer a WTO exit over the Norway option any day of the week.

    Now, do I want a WTO exit? No, but if the EU are not willing to give an acceptable middle way to the UK between it and the Norway option I'd say that the UK should take the WTO option and regain control over handing over control to the EU again.
    The question is not whether the Norway option is good or bad or, for that matter, whether the WTO crash-out is good or bad. Either involves the UK being out of the EU; either is a complete implementation of the referendum result.

    Obviously, they can't both be the best possible implementation of the referendum result, and people might reasonably differ as to which of them is the more desirable. But nobody can claim that the referendum result requires one of them rather than the other; that question wasn't on the ballot paper, and it there was no campaign in favour of either of them over the other that could claim to have secured even an implicit mandate from the referendum result.

    I'm suspicious of attempts by partisans for any particular model of Brexit to claim that their favoured model is required by the refefendum outcome/has secured a mandate in the referendum. This is so patently untrue that it leads me to conclude that those who advance an obviously bogus argument for their cause do so only because they cannot thing of any credible argument.

    But I'm also concerned that attempts to railroad the choice through by appealing to a supposedly unquestionable mandate of the people distract from the real issue, which is - on what considerations should this decision be made? And who is responsible for making it? Hard Brexiter politicians were generally very hostile to allowing the people to have any say at all in this choice in the formof a second referendum, yet at the same time by claiming that the people had already made this choice in the first referendum they seek to evade responsiblity and accountability for a choice which, in fact, is made and imposed by them.


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    #2421
    theological
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    The question is not whether the Norway option is good or bad or, for that matter, whether the WTO crash-out is good or bad. Either involves the UK being out of the EU; either is a complete implementation of the referendum result.

    Obviously, they can't both be the best possible implementation of the referendum result, and people might reasonably differ as to which of them is the more desirable. But nobody can claim that the referendum result requires one of them rather than the other; that question wasn't on the ballot paper, and it there was no campaign in favour of either of them over the other that could claim to have secured even an implicit mandate from the referendum result.

    I'm suspicious of attempts by partisans for any particular model of Brexit to claim that their favoured model is required by the refefendum outcome/has secured a mandate in the referendum. This is so patently untrue that it leads me to conclude that those who advance an obviously bogus argument for their cause do so only because they cannot thing of any credible argument.

    But I'm also concerned that attempts to railroad the choice through by appealing to a supposedly unquestionable mandate of the people distract from the real issue, which is - on what considerations should this decision be made? And who is responsible for making it? Hard Brexiter politicians were generally very hostile to allowing the people to have any say at all in this choice in the formof a second referendum, yet at the same time by claiming that the people had already made this choice in the first referendum they seek to evade responsiblity and accountability for a choice which, in fact, is made and imposed by them.

    The referendum was nearly 4 years ago. A lot has happened since then.

    Including the current Tory government winning the election in December on the basis of their policy on Brexit.

    The likelihood of the current government accepting the Norway option is zero. So the question then becomes what are the other options.


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    #2422
    blinding
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭blinding


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    I think the Tories should ask for an extension and blame it on the pandemic. At the very least, it would allow them to prepare more fully for crashing out. But I'm not British so I'd like them to go now. In the context of the EU, they're just a festering boil now.
    There is no point in this going on and on. They are just wasting one another's time.


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    #2423
    trashcan
    Registered Users Posts: 4,021 ✭✭✭trashcan


    blinding wrote: »

    The Eu has to come to terms with, that it can lose to the Democracy of the Nation State. What is the Eu if it will not Respect the Democracy of the Nation State ? ? ?:eek::eek:

    In what way has the EU not respected the democracy of a nation state ? :o:eek::pac:


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    #2424
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 14,371 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    blinding wrote: »
    There is no point in this going on and on. They are just wasting one another's time.

    Agreed. 2021 is going to be financial Armageddon for the UK.


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    #2425
    theological
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    Agreed. 2021 is going to be financial Armageddon for the UK.


    I was wondering when the apocalypse is going to come. Do you have any idea as to when exactly it will be?

    On a serious note, we've been getting these doomsday predictions for years. To be honest I voted remain in 2016 because I actually believed them. The predictions they made in the immediate aftermath of the referendum were manifestly false. There's no good reason why the UK cannot be successful post-Brexit.

    So save the scare stories for Halloween at least.


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    #2426
    blinding
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭blinding


    trashcan wrote: »
    In what way has the EU not respected the democracy of a nation state ? :o:eek::pac:
    Donald Tusk for One.

    The disparaging comments that people did not know what they were voting for ! Coming from the likes of the Irish who voted for FFG for years and years:eek::eek:

    Verhofstadt , Juncker with they smart ass comments.

    Eu Leaders humiliated the British Prime Minister ( then Theresa May ) on at least two occasions

    The British have now had plenty of time to mull over their decision. They have decided to leave the Eu and showed in December that they are more than happy with their decision.

    As I said the More the British People saw of the Eu the less they liked it.


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    #2427
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,511 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    theological wrote: »
    The referendum was nearly 4 years ago. A lot has happened since then.

    Including the current Tory government winning the election in December on the basis of their policy on Brexit.

    The likelihood of the current government accepting the Norway option is zero. So the question then becomes what are the other options.
    We have a problem here. The current Tory government got less support in the December election than EU membership got in the 2016 referendum. You cannot, with credibility, claim that the people have rejected EU membership but rounding endorsed the Johnson Brexit; based on how people actually voted, the Johnson Brexit is even less popular than EU membership.

    Which is why I think there's a fundamentally anti-democratic dishonesty pervading this entire exercise. Politicians put one question to people, and they claim that the people have answered a different question. They do this so they can enforce a policy which the people haven't, in fact, endorsed, while disclaiming responsiblity and accountability for doing so by pretending that they have. Partisans for the policy in question may be prepared to overlook the duplicity involved; they may not realise quite how duplicitous it has been until the next time, when a policy they don't favour is implemented in this way. And overall the effect is corrosive.

    To be clear, I don't object to politicians implementing policies which haven't secured endorsement from the people; that's how representative democracy works. But I think a healthy representative democracy requires politicians who accept their role in the system, are honest about it and are willing to be resonsible and accountable for it. And I don't think there has been much of that in evidence in the Brexit project. Which is why I think it has, no the whole, degraded the UK's democracy and the quality of its governance.


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    #2428
    Leroy42
    Registered Users Posts: 15,616 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    blinding wrote: »
    Donald Tusk for One.

    The disparaging comments that people did not know what they were voting for ! Coming from the likes of the Irish who voted for FFG for years and years:eek::eek:

    Verhofstadt , Juncker with they smart ass comments.

    Eu Leaders humiliated the British Prime Minister ( then Theresa May ) on at least two occasions

    The British have now had plenty of time to mull over their decision. They have decided to leave the Eu and showed in December that they are more than happy with their decision.

    As I said the More the British People saw of the Eu the less they liked it.

    That is not undemocratic. You are now coming out against freedom of speech and thought. He can say whatever he likes, but he abided by the democratic will of the UK.

    Are you being undemocratic by complaining about FG and FF?


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    #2429
    blinding
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭blinding


    theological wrote: »
    I was wondering when the apocalypse is going to come. Do you have any idea as to when exactly it will be?

    On a serious note, we've been getting these doomsday predictions for years. To be honest I voted remain in 2016 because I actually believed them. The predictions they made in the immediate aftermath of the referendum were manifestly false. There's no good reason why the UK cannot be successful post-Brexit.

    So save the scare stories for Halloween at least.
    The Eu has taken over from the Catholic Church in the Republic of Ireland :eek::eek:

    You Must Believe or Suffer Eternal Damnation :eek::eek::eek:

    Get Down on Your Knees and Worship the Eu or Else the Wrath of the Eu will be Upon You :eek::eek::eek:


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    #2430
    blinding
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭blinding


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    That is not undemocratic. You are now coming out against freedom of speech and thought. He can say whatever he likes, but he abided by the democratic will of the UK.

    Are you being undemocratic by complaining about FG and FF?
    I am high lighting the hypocrisy particularly of the Irish people voting for FFG :eek::eek: Casting aspirations about other people not knowing what they were voting for:eek::eek:


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    #2431
    Blueshoe
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,964 ✭✭✭Blueshoe


    blinding wrote: »
    The Eu has taken over from the Catholic Church in the Republic of Ireland :eek::eek:

    You Must Believe or Suffer Eternal Damnation :eek::eek::eek:

    Get Down on Your Knees and Worship the Eu or Else the Wrath of the Eu will be Upon You :eek::eek::eek:

    Ireland is a net contributor to the Eu these days. Expect payments to rise even further once the UK leave. The hole needs to be filled


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