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Will Britain piss off and get on with Brexit II (mod warning in OP)

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    #2702
    theological
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    All the EU's agreements with third countries respect the status of those countries as third countries; they wouldn't have signed them otherwise. There's nothing unique about the Canada deal in that regard.

    The UK's position seems to be (and you seem to uncritically accept) that the UK has the right to pick-and-mix bits from every agreement that the EU has ever made with any third county, ignoring the fact that the UK is very differently situated to those countries, and then to assemble those bits into a unique agreement which the EU has never made with any country, and to expect this to be accepted by the EU, and to complain that if the EU doesn't comply it is failing to respect the UK's status as a third country.

    This is nonsense, and dangerous nonsense; it will seriously damage the UK by preventing it from entertaining the possiblity of a trade deal to which the EU might conceivably agree (and this may indeed be the purpose of some who espouse this position). The UK could benefit enormously from an extension if it gives them the time to appreciate that it is nonsense, and to come up with an approach to the negotiations capable of accommodating a mutually beneficial trade deal. The only reason for dismissing an extension is if you think the UK is incapable of this. I have not quite reached that point of despair.


    An extension without a clear deal on the table to be finalized is a waste of time as I've said already.

    I'm open to any arrangement that doesn't require auto-copying of EU rules for an infinite amount of time. Note, that Canada is not obliged to do this, nor are several other countries. If other third countries haven't done this there's no reason for the UK to hand over a huge amount of control to the EU for more liberalised trade.

    I think the Government are right to stick to their guns on this.


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    #2703
    davedanon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,062 ✭✭✭davedanon


    theological wrote: »
    An extension without a clear deal on the table to be finalized is a waste of time as I've said already.

    I'm open to any arrangement that doesn't require auto-copying of EU rules for an infinite amount of time. Note, that Canada is not obliged to do this, nor are several other countries. If other third countries haven't done this there's no reason for the UK to hand over a huge amount of control to the EU for more liberalised trade.

    I think the Government are right to stick to their guns on this.

    You keep bringing this up, the comparison with Canada's deal. But you never mention that the EU has repeatedly stated that Britain's proximity to the EU means that they can't have the same deal as Canada. Also, as someone else stated, Canada's deal doesn't cover services. Britain's is a service economy. This Canada deal thing is a strawman argument. Britain can't have a Canada-style deal because it isn't Canada, and it isn't thousands of miles way, it's in the EU's backyard.


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    #2704
    theological
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    davedanon wrote: »
    You keep bringing this up, the comparison with Canada's deal. But you never mention that the EU has repeatedly stated that Britain's proximity to the EU means that they can't have the same deal as Canada. Also, as someone else stated, Canada's deal doesn't cover services. Britain's is a service economy. This Canada deal thing is a strawman argument. Britain can't have a Canada-style deal because it isn't Canada, and it isn't thousands of miles way, it's in the EU's backyard.


    The point is that the UK isn't going to agree a deal that requires an auto-copying of EU rules forever. The likelihood of this government accepting this type of arrangement is 0. In this scenario there either needs to be movement towards a more reasonable position, or a WTO exit at the end of the year.


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    #2705
    Blueshoe
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,964 ✭✭✭Blueshoe


    theological wrote: »
    The point is that the UK isn't going to agree a deal that requires an auto-copying of EU rules forever. The likelihood of this government accepting this type of arrangement is 0. In this scenario there either needs to be movement towards a more reasonable position, or a WTO exit at the end of the year.

    Why would they leave the Eu yet then be constrained by its rules. That would be ridiculous.
    Like you said chance is 0


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    #2706
    Melanchthon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,118 ✭✭✭Melanchthon


    davedanon wrote: »
    Also, as someone else stated, Canada's deal doesn't cover services.
    Trade in services
    In services and investment CETA is the most far reaching agreement the EU has ever concluded. Almost half of the benefits anticipated from CETA are expected in the services sector. CETA make it easier for EU individuals and companies to provide services to Canadian customers and vice versa. It covers services such as legal services, accountancy, transport and telecom services.

    There is a huge opportunity for Ireland given its strengths in services. Ireland has been particularly successful in expanding its share of the world’s services market in recent years – in fact our share has tripled in the last 15 years - and services exports account for more than half of all Irish exports.

    https://dbei.gov.ie/en/What-We-Do/Trade-Investment/Free-Trade-Agreements/CETA.html#trade-in-services
    CHAPTER NINE - CROSS-BORDER TRADE IN SERVICES
    This chapter makes it easier for EU individuals and companies to provide services to Canadian customers, and vice versa. It covers:

    services such as legal services, accountancy, transport & telecom services, supplied from the EU into Canada, and vice versa
    services such as tourism, where a Canadian consumer has to move physically from Canada to the EU to consume that service, and vice versa.
    The EU and Canada commit to ensuring fair, equal access to each other's services markets. In certain service industries the EU and Canada have made exceptions because, for example, the sectors in question - such as audio-visual services, certain aviation services - are sensitive. In addition, this chapter fully upholds governments' ability to regulate and supply services in the public interest.
    https://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/in-focus/ceta/ceta-chapter-by-chapter/


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    #2707
    davedanon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,062 ✭✭✭davedanon


    theological wrote: »
    The point is that the UK isn't going to agree a deal that requires an auto-copying of EU rules forever. The likelihood of this government accepting this type of arrangement is 0. In this scenario there either needs to be movement towards a more reasonable position, or a WTO exit at the end of the year.

    Who, apart from you, has suggested 'an auto-copying of EU rules forever'?


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    #2708
    davedanon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,062 ✭✭✭davedanon


    Blueshoe wrote: »
    Why would they leave the Eu yet then be constrained by its rules. That would be ridiculous.
    Like you said chance is 0

    Because that is how trade deals work. Do you really not understand this? Trade deals are worked out, line-by-line, in exhaustive and tedious detail, item by item. This is why they take years to implement. Britain can't have its cake and eat it. It is one tenth the size of the EU. End of argument.


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    #2709
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,708 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    davedanon wrote: »
    Who, apart from you, has suggested 'an auto-copying of EU rules forever'?

    Nobody. It's a silly strawman. Apparently, it's reasonable to expect to be able to access the single market while ignoring the rules.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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    #2710
    davedanon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,062 ✭✭✭davedanon


    Melanchthon wrote: »
    https://dbei.gov.ie/en/What-We-Do/Trade-Investment/Free-Trade-Agreements/CETA.html#trade-in-services


    https://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/in-focus/ceta/ceta-chapter-by-chapter/


    https://www.bbc.com/news/business-45633592


    "What does Ceta do?
    We've heard a lot about wanting a "zero-tariff, zero-quota" deal between the UK and the EU. Ceta does not do that.
    Ceta gets rid of most, but not all, tariffs (that's taxes on imports) on goods traded between the EU and Canada. Tariffs remain on poultry, meat and eggs.
    It also increases quotas (that's the amount of a product that can be exported without extra charges) but does not get rid of them altogether. For example, quotas on EU cheese exports to Canada increase from 18,500 tonnes to 31,972 tonnes a year.
    It does little for the trade in services and in particular almost nothing for the trade in financial services, which is very important for the UK economy.


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    #2711
    theological
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    Nobody. It's a silly strawman. Apparently, it's reasonable to expect to be able to access the single market while ignoring the rules.


    Again, look to other FTA's where the EU has not requested this.

    The EU have asked the UK to continue to follow EU rules for its own economy. I understand following EU rules in order to sell to the EU in the same way that goods that are bound for America follow American regulations.

    But insisting that the UK must follow EU rules for what happens in the UK is the issue. That is what gets an obvious no.


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    #2712
    Melanchthon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,118 ✭✭✭Melanchthon


    davedanon wrote: »
    https://www.bbc.com/news/business-45633592

    It does little for the trade in services and in particular almost nothing for the trade in financial services, which is very important for the UK economy.


    Agree about the Financial services part to some extent but the idea it does little for services is directly contradicted by the Irish government in the link I highlighted, If you want to discount the Irish government as a valid source of information for this fine but others will discount Irish government statements on other things relating to Brexit and EU then.


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    #2713
    fash
    Registered Users Posts: 2,273 ✭✭✭fash


    theological wrote: »
    The point is that the UK isn't going to agree a deal that requires an auto-copying of EU rules forever. The likelihood of this government accepting this type of arrangement is 0. In this scenario there either needs to be movement towards a more reasonable position, or a WTO exit at the end of the year.
    And so what if this government does not? This government only received 44% of the UK vote - its highest for a long time, every other party wants a closer relationship to the EU & if they don't get a deal, it is very likely the UK will come to an end & brexit completely discredited.
    Sounds like the EU should be aiming for a no deal to me: cripple & discredit the UK & brexiters, provide a terrible warning to Eurosceptics elsewhere and on a world stage demonstrate the resolve of the EU.

    Edit: to add, if the UK fails to get an FTA with the EU, aside from a few symbolic treaties (such as vassalage to the US), it will be severely hampered in concluding long term treaties with others - as the EU treaty will be the most important and determine what the UK looks like in the long term - which gives the EU additional power to bring the UK to heel.


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    #2714
    2u2me
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭2u2me


    fash wrote: »
    Not quite the same though is it:
    Leavers said they could have all of the benefits and none of the costs,

    People that leave cults are initially worse off also. They get better over time.

    The Remain campaign also made outlandish claims about the economy(recession), Scottish independence and the border with France.

    It seems many here would prefer the UK to get as bad a deal as possible; just like a cult would like to see a former member ruined. That kind of thinking just doesn't sit right with me, why can't we wish them the best.


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    #2715
    2u2me
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭2u2me


    fash wrote: »
    cripple & discredit the UK & brexiters, provide a terrible warning to Eurosceptics elsewhere and on a world stage demonstrate the resolve of the EU.

    That's the strategy of the scientologists so it must be good.


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    #2716
    fash
    Registered Users Posts: 2,273 ✭✭✭fash


    2u2me wrote: »
    People that leave cults are initially worse off also. They get better over time.

    The Remain campaign also made outlandish claims about the economy(recession), Scottish independence and the border with France.

    It seems many here would prefer the UK to get as bad a deal as possible; just like a cult would like to see a former member ruined. That kind of thinking just doesn't sit right with me, why can't we wish them the best.
    In other words, you think that the people who sought to break the GFA and restart the troubles, to starve Ireland and deprive it of medical supplies, to focus an economic war on Ireland to have Ireland submit to its breach of an international treaty and began national and international propaganda campaigns against Ireland
    - and that is just to focus on its threats to Ireland - and leaves aside the various threats to "crush" the EU and illegal actions - is the good guy in this?


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    #2717
    fash
    Registered Users Posts: 2,273 ✭✭✭fash


    2u2me wrote: »
    That's the strategy of the scientologists so it must be good.
    I understand that the Scientologists also use writing - does that mean writing is proof of a cult?


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    #2718
    davedanon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,062 ✭✭✭davedanon


    2u2me wrote: »
    That's the strategy of the scientologists so it must be good.


    The UK is the entity exhibiting cult-like behaviour, so in this analogy they would be the scientologists.


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    #2719
    blinding
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭blinding


    2u2me wrote: »
    People that leave cults are initially worse off also. They get better over time.

    The Remain campaign also made outlandish claims about the economy(recession), Scottish independence and the border with France.

    It seems many here would prefer the UK to get as bad a deal as possible; just like a cult would like to see a former member ruined. That kind of thinking just doesn't sit right with me, why can't we wish them the best.
    The Apostate that leaves the Religion / Cult must be destroyed for fear another would exclaim; the Emperor is Bollock Naked ! ! !


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    #2720
    davedanon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,062 ✭✭✭davedanon


    blinding wrote: »
    The Apostate that leaves the Religion / Cult must be destroyed for fear another would exclaim; the Emperor is Bollock Naked ! ! !

    You're off your rocker, mate.


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    #2721
    fash
    Registered Users Posts: 2,273 ✭✭✭fash


    blinding wrote: »
    The Apostate that leaves the Religion / Cult must be destroyed for fear another would exclaim; the Emperor is Bollock Naked ! ! !
    As indicated above, I'm sure you will agree that it is brexiters who exhibit religious devotion to their cause, to the otherising of unbelievers (those remainers you denigrate), a hatred of facts and expertise and a devotion to "belief" ("just believe in brexit""you just have to believe enough", "that person just didn't believe hard enough in brexit), the paradisiacal "sunny uplands" they lie just beyond the horizon, a fanaticism that a jihadist would admire etc etc - and you have the gall to accuse others of religious devotion to their causes?


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    #2722
    2u2me
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭2u2me


    fash wrote: »
    In other words, you think that the people who sought to break the GFA and restart the troubles, to starve Ireland and deprive it of medical supplies, to focus an economic war on Ireland to have Ireland submit to its breach of an international treaty and began national and international propaganda campaigns against Ireland
    - and that is just to focus on its threats to Ireland - and leaves aside the various threats to "crush" the EU and illegal actions - is the good guy in this?

    Now you're doing exactly what you've accused the leave campaign of doing. Exaggerating and lying.

    They sought control of their own future. None of the stuff you listed.
    A cult member would spin it exactly like you have. "you're leaving because you don't love me" etc..


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    #2723
    davedanon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,062 ✭✭✭davedanon


    It's textbook projection: accuse your enemy of that which you are guilty, and all that. I think it just basically becomes an innate feature of the rwnj mindset. It's not intelligently arrived at; it's a native cunning born out of the hatred and fear that dominates their worldview.


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    #2724
    Melanchthon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,118 ✭✭✭Melanchthon


    fash wrote: »
    As indicated above, I'm sure you will agree that it is brexiters who exhibit religious devotion to their cause, to the otherising of unbelievers (those remainers you denigrate), a hatred of facts and expertise and a devotion to "belief" ("just believe in brexit""you just have to believe enough", "that person just didn't believe hard enough in brexit), the paradisiacal "sunny uplands" they lie just beyond the horizon, a fanaticism that a jihadist would admire etc etc - and you have the gall to accuse others of religious devotion to their causes?

    Ok I think Brexit will be bad for the UK for say the next decade anyway and could have been avoided, I think it harms Ireland significantly and harms the wider EU more than people realise, however given the current direction of the EU and the fact that as a body it seems to be doubling down on greater integration and increasing power to its bodies that are normally the remit of countries, see the German constitutional courts recent decision- not some Express or Daily Mail article.

    What can the UK do, whatever about Remaining having a decent body of support there wasn't British support for the current direction of travel.

    This is a serious question, to your mind what's a way out of this for the UK as it's grand to complain about their negotiation stances but it doesn't seem to me like it's a solvable problem.

    Edit: to be clear I supported the idea of remain and reform call at least a pause until issues were resolved, not Brexit.


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    #2725
    fash
    Registered Users Posts: 2,273 ✭✭✭fash


    2u2me wrote: »
    Now you're doing exactly what you've accused the leave campaign of doing. Exaggerating and lying.

    They sought control of their own future. None of the stuff you listed.
    A cult member would spin it exactly like you have. "you're leaving because you don't love me" etc..
    Oh please - which part of it is a lie or an exaggeration.
    "Control their future"- again please - they sought to have their cake (with cherries on top) and eat it - nothing more.


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    #2726
    theological
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    davedanon wrote: »
    It's textbook projection: accuse your enemy of that which you are guilty, and all that. I think it just basically becomes an innate feature of the rwnj mindset. It's not intelligently arrived at; it's a native cunning born out of the hatred and fear that dominates their worldview.


    To be honest, I don't fear or hate anyone or anything. I'm just of the mind that if there's no good option on the table then the UK should not extend and move on at the end of the year.

    The language often gets very extreme here. Speaking of enemies for example is pretty coarse.


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    #2727
    fash
    Registered Users Posts: 2,273 ✭✭✭fash


    davedanon wrote: »
    It's textbook projection: accuse your enemy of that which you are guilty, and all that. I think it just basically becomes an innate feature of the rwnj mindset. It's not intelligently arrived at; it's a native cunning born out of the hatred and fear that dominates their worldview.
    There was a Garry Kasparov tweet about it recently in relation to Trump.


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    #2728
    blinding
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭blinding


    davedanon wrote: »
    You're off your rocker, mate.
    The Apostate that leaves the Religion / Cult must be condemned !

    It has ever been thus from the Insecure and Fragile Religionists / Cultists !

    Any that Contemplate Leaving must be Destroyed ! ! !:eek:


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    #2729
    blinding
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭blinding


    davedanon wrote: »
    It's textbook projection: accuse your enemy of that which you are guilty, and all that. I think it just basically becomes an innate feature of the rwnj mindset. It's not intelligently arrived at; it's a native cunning born out of the hatred and fear that dominates their worldview.
    ;);););)


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    #2730
    fash
    Registered Users Posts: 2,273 ✭✭✭fash


    Melanchthon wrote: »
    Ok I think Brexit will be bad for the UK for say the next decade anyway and could have been avoided, I think it harms Ireland significantly and harms the wider EU more than people realise, however given the current direction of the EU and the fact that as a body it seems to be doubling down on greater integration and increasing power to its bodies that are normally the remit of countries, see the German constitutional courts recent decision- not some Express or Daily Mail article.

    What can the UK do, whatever about Remaining having a decent body of support there wasn't British support for the current direction of travel.

    This is a serious question, to your mind what's a way out of this for the UK as it's grand to complain about their negotiation stances but it doesn't seem to me like it's a solvable problem.

    Edit: to be clear I supported the idea of remain and reform call at least a pause until issues were resolved, not Brexit.
    The only way additional integration happens or would have happened in the EU is if countries agree(d) to it. The UK's way out of that was to remain as right where it was.
    Really the nonsense about freedom of movement was silly: as seen by Ireland's failure to attract polish builders recently, a once in a lifetime event as there are no more poor post Communist countries which underwent baby booms in the 1970's/1980's that can join the EU - which the UK government (alone) pushed to invite into the EU (too) early and which the UK government (almost alone) opened its borders to immediately.
    The blaming the EU for African or Turkish migrants was always absurd.
    It is interesting to note how once that wedge issue served its purpose it was dropped from the propaganda organs and no longer viewed as a significant issue by the UK propaganda-soaked punter.

    As regards the EU, there are certainly areas where increased EU integration would be a good thing: certain areas of health policy coordination, a common budget to bail out Southern EU countries asymmetrically hit by Covid etc.


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    #2731
    fly_agaric
    Registered Users Posts: 4,901 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    davedanon wrote: »
    The UK is the entity exhibiting cult-like behaviour, so in this analogy they would be the scientologists.

    Scientology is a bit sophisticated. Cargo cult?
    Leave the EU -> with a few pen strokes all is changed, all problems are solved! Global Britain rises up to greatness! Brexit works its magic like a whirlwind re-arranging a messy pile of assorted odds and ends into a jet engine!


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