Will Britain piss off and get on with Brexit II (mod warning in OP)

fash

theological wrote: »

Actually, I don't think the US tend to require free movement, or mass adoption of its law into domestic legislation as a pre-requisite for trade arrangements. Nor do they seem to require large fees to be paid for that access on an annual basis.

The US offers an optimistic 0.07% p.a. increase of GDP after 15 years - if the UK gets rid of the NHS, British farmers, protection of geographic indication such as "Scottish whisky" and allows the US to determine which third parties the UK enters agreements with (edit: I.e. not China to begin with- but I'm sure there will be others).
Compared with what the EU is offering, that is a rather poor offer for a rather steep price.

that a US trade deal will require give and take but I'm definitely not expecting the ask to be as large as it is for EU membership, or the EU-lite membership the EU would like the UK to be bound to.

As said, it doesn't sound like you've looked into this deeply. You should - it may change your mind on the mouth watering offer given by the EU.

Donald Trump

theological wrote: »

Actually, I don't think the US tend to require free movement, or mass adoption of its law into domestic legislation as a pre-requisite for trade arrangements. Nor do they seem to require large fees to be paid for that access on an annual basis.

Actually, the US requires visa free access for its citizens to be able to visit Mexico. As the stronger partner in the relationship, it can require that while not giving reciprocity.





(Some South American countries, Brazil for example, will charge a fee for US citizens to enter in "retaliation" for how the US treats it. They allow free entry for EU citizens though. But Mexico being a neighbour can't get away with that)

First Up

RobMc59 wrote:

I'd prefer a deal with the EU but would rather walk away and go with WTO rules than be subservient to them.There is an assumption by many posters here that the UK should and will tow the line as the more powerful EU demands it.

This really is nonsense. The only matter for discussion between the EU and the UK is the terms under which they do business with each other. Nothing else.

"Subservient" and" toes the line" is contrived victimhood. All trade agreements involve the parties setting out terms and where necessary reaching compromise. Both sides use their relative strengths to their advantage.

The UK sends 45% of its exports to the EU. They can decide which of the EU's conditions for acess they will meet.

The UK is currently part of all of the EU's trade agreements worldwide. They now have to negotiate their own. So they will be subservient to and will be toeing the line with quite a few places if that's the attitude you bring to it.

That's a lot of victimhood to take on board all at once so they better start practicing.

theological

fash wrote: »

As said, it doesn't sound like you've looked into this deeply. You should - it may change your mind on the mouth watering offer given by the EU.

Is that a joke?

Donald Trump wrote: »

Actually, the US requires visa free access for its citizens to be able to visit Mexico. As the stronger partner in the relationship, it can require that while not giving reciprocity.

Free movement in EU terms means automatic residency rights in other countries. I'm pretty sure Americans can already visit the UK without a visa for up to 6 months.

Donald Trump wrote: »

Theo, I am not meaning to be personal on this but from what I understand you are Irish and living in the UK. I assume you would probably be entitled to a UK passport even if you haven't applied for one. Or that you would be most of the way along to doing so.

Why would I do that? Some tosh about all Irish people being expected to think the same way about the EU again?

You can do better than this.

Donald Trump wrote: »

In many ways, it is very disingenuous for people with that advantage to be complaining about free movement. What removing free movement does is to take something away from others that cannot be taken from yourself. It will give you a relative advantage. Would you, for example, on a point of principle, refuse to apply for Irish passports for your children (if you have any now or in the future). Or would you apply so that they could avail of the benefits of being a citizen of the EU? While all the while knowing that you might have fought, or at least expressed opinions, to remove that right for their little buddies?

I'm here under the CTA rights I have under the Ireland Act 1949 which predates the UK membership of the EEC and then EU by about 24 years.

fash

theological wrote: »

Is that a joke?

I could ask the same question. Do you think the US offer compares in any way to that of the EU? Do you honestly think the UK will have the (likely massively underestimated) 50,000 customs people in place considering they don't even have the course up and running yet and it's already asking for more money? Have you seen the list of asks the UK has made of the EU in their "very limited FTA" -and do you understand why? Do you think the UK will actually turn French fishermen away from their waters- and what will happen if they do? Hint: think of the French ports. What will the UK do then?
If the US ramps up its antagonism towards China (or otherwise) - how is the UK going to act towards China- and how will that impact on its relationship with the EU?
If you've actually looked at this in any depth, I'll be very interested to hearing your answers to the above questions.

Free movement in EU terms means automatic residency rights in other countries.

No it doesn't. Nor in any case was that asked if the UK by the EU.

First Up

theological wrote:

I'm here under the CTA rights I have under the Ireland Act 1949 which predates the UK membership of the EEC and then EU by about 24 years.

You don't know much about the law
either. New laws supercede old ones.

theological

First Up wrote: »

You don't know much about the law
either. New laws supercede old ones.

I'm making a pretty simple point. Even if the UK never joined the EU, I would still have the same right to live here.

Attributing that to the EU is incorrect.

fash

theological wrote: »

I'm making a pretty simple point. Even if the UK never joined the EU, I would still have the same right to live here.

Attributing that to the EU is incorrect.

Actually strictly speaking, you would not have had the "same" right. Accuracy is important here - and likely one of the reasons why Brexiters fail to understand why they buggered the UK.

theological

fash wrote: »

Actually strictly speaking, you would not have had the "same" right. Accuracy is important here - and likely one of the reasons why Brexiters fail to understand why they buggered the UK.

Perhaps you'd like to enlighten me about what is substantially different from a legal perspective.

Otherwise, it's a pretty moot point no?

First Up

theological wrote:

Attributing that to the EU is incorrect.

I didn't. But the unforeseen consequences of Brexit could reach into many corners.

fash

theological wrote: »

Perhaps you'd like to enlighten me about what is substantially different from a legal perspective.

Otherwise, it's a pretty moot point no?

Here you go. The differences are very substantial:
here
here

theological

fash wrote: »

Here you go. The differences are very substantial:
here
here

Very good, you can link to two links. The second link seems to suggest that I have permanent residency and working rights irrespective of EU membership. All the freedoms I enjoy on a day to day basis seem to be covered under the CTA.

McGiver

Back to the core issue - when will they piss off finally? They can leave on WTO today.

Theological, why they don't? Tell us please? A rational explanation please.

fash

theological wrote: »

Very good, you can link to two links. The second link seems to suggest that I have permanent residency and working rights irrespective of EU membership. All the freedoms I enjoy on a day to day basis seem to be covered under the CTA.

Perhaps one needs to have a relevant background to understand the difference- this may explain your inability to spot the differences. I suspect that this wider fact of you failing to understand the deficiencies in the Brexiter logic.

Hint: not only are CTA rights not that fixed- contained in a memorandum of understanding only - despite the Irish request that they be put into law:
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-ireland/uk-and-irelands-common-travel-area-to-continue-after-brexit-idUSKCN1SE1QA
But also in several respects are more limited than FOM rights (while being more extensive in others):
https://brexitlawni.org/blog/things-stand-rights-will-irish-citizens-ni-brexit/

RobMc59

First Up wrote: »

This really is nonsense. The only matter for discussion between the EU and the UK is the terms under which they do business with each other. Nothing else.

"Subservient" and" toes the line" is contrived victimhood. All trade agreements involve the parties setting out terms and where necessary reaching compromise. Both sides use their relative strengths to their advantage.

The UK sends 45% of its exports to the EU. They can decide which of the EU's conditions for acess they will meet.

The UK is currently part of all of the EU's trade agreements worldwide. They now have to negotiate their own. So they will be subservient to and will be toeing the line with quite a few places if that's the attitude you bring to it.

That's a lot of victimhood to take on board all at once so they better start practicing.

Perhaps I'm used to other threads where posters constantly suggest the UK will do as its told as its the weaker party in negotiations and the mere mention of the UK fishing grounds being a good bargaining point causes indignant outrage.

blinding

Is it an Eu thing ? But why do Irish people think they can stick their nose in to the Affairs of a Sovereign Independent Country ?

The Brits don’t give two hoots what ye think and yet ye spend yer’e time thinking that they do.

RobMc59

blinding wrote: »

Is it an Eu thing ? But why do Irish people think they can stick their nose in to the Affairs of a Sovereign Independent Country ?

The Brits don’t give two hoots what ye think and yet ye spend yer’e time thinking that they do.

In many parts of Britain there is a strong affinity with Ireland due to most of them being Irish descent!
https://www.liverpoolirishcentre.org/

fash

RobMc59 wrote: »

Perhaps I'm used to other threads where posters constantly suggest the UK will do as its told as its the weaker party in negotiations and the mere mention of the UK fishing grounds being a good bargaining point causes indignant outrage.

Perhaps you now feel some sympathy for Greenland when the UK pushed the EEC (as it then was) to seek access to their fishing grounds when they left? Do you agree that the UK was unreasonable? If so, what is a suitably ironic punishment?

Joe_ Public

Uk fishing grounds, less than 1% of GDP, greater than 99% of brexiteer fantasy notions of taking back control.

fash

blinding wrote: »

Is it an Eu thing ? But why do Irish people think they can stick their nose in to the Affairs of a Sovereign Independent Country ?

The Brits don’t give two hoots what ye think and yet ye spend yer’e time thinking that they do.

Quite. As can be seen by the actions of the UK in Northern Ireland. It is interesting to compare the then actions of the UK (England) in NI to the current actions of Russia in Ukraine and Georgia. Declining imperial powers annexing parts of neighbouring countries with the intention of destabilising said country and retaining control of their destiny. There is a further irony given that Russia was the cause of Brexit.

RobMc59

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Uk fishing grounds, less than 1% of GDP, greater than 99% of brexiteer fantasy notions of taking back control.

More important to the EU than UK I believe,so a bargaining point.

fash

RobMc59 wrote: »

More important to the EU than UK I believe,so a bargaining point.

That is likely true. Although it seems to be worth quite a lot to the UK for bragging/point scoring rights.

Experience_day

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Uk fishing grounds, less than 1% of GDP, greater than 99% of brexiteer fantasy notions of taking back control.

Only a tard would think British fishing grounds were unimportant. They are going to become very important for Europe over the next century when we have issues with mineral depletion in arable land.

Joe_ Public

RobMc59 wrote: »

More important to the EU than UK I believe,so a bargaining point.

As they should be, except for the symbolic importance of that fishing industry to the idea of taking control. A control exemplified by the fact 80% of Englands fishing quota is already foreign owned.

blinding

fash wrote: »

Quite. As can be seen by the actions of the UK in Northern Ireland. It is interesting to compare the then actions of the UK (England) in NI to the current actions of Russia in Ukraine and Georgia. Declining imperial powers annexing parts of neighbouring countries with the intention of destabilising said country and retaining control of their destiny. There is a further irony given that Russia was the cause of Brexit.

The British people had they been given the chance would have voted against the Maastricht and Lisbon Treaties but ‘ The Russians ';);)

The British People have never wanted to be in the Eu. They voted to stay in a very loose trading arrangement in 1974 i.e. The EEC.

The first chance the got to Vote the Eu out of their Country they booted the Eu out.

fash

blinding wrote: »

The British people had they been given the chance would have voted against the Maastricht and Lisbon Treaties but ‘ The Russians ';);)

The British People have never wanted to be in the Eu. They voted to stay in a very loose trading arrangement in 1974 i.e. The EEC.

The first chance the got to Vote the Eu out of their Country they booted the Eu out.

It is interesting that you are unable to respond or deny the points I've made - it would tend to suggest you are merely trolling - is that true?

Donald Trump

theological wrote: »

Free movement in EU terms means automatic residency rights in other countries. I'm pretty sure Americans can already visit the UK without a visa for up to 6 months.

That's not the point. The point is that a stronger partner in the deal can squeeze out one-way privileges.

theological wrote: »

Why would I do that? Some tosh about all Irish people being expected to think the same way about the EU again?

You can do better than this.

I'm here under the CTA rights I have under the Ireland Act 1949 which predates the UK membership of the EEC and then EU by about 24 years.

What about your kids? If they have already been born in the UK or born in the future. Both you and I know that anything you say here is hypothetical because if it comes to it, you can and will get an EU passport for them. Brexit won't limit their right to move and live in France or Germany in the future. They are entitled to it. But the kids down the road won't be.

davedanon

Blueshoe wrote: »

Common sense

You approve of elected officials fúcking over the people whose interests they're supposed to represent?

Can I conclude from that that you are a bit of a cúnt?

fash

fash wrote: »

It is interesting that you are unable to respond or deny the points I've made - it would tend to suggest you are merely trolling - is that true?

blinding isn't a troll. He was raised in the wilderness by wolves and Express journalists and we have to accept him for who he is.

blinding

fash wrote: »

It is interesting that you are unable to respond or deny the points I've made - it would tend to suggest you are merely trolling - is that true?

When someone brings up “ The Russians “ in relation to Brexit and then talks about Trolling.

The British people never Voted to be in the Eu, never showed any sign that they liked or respected the Eu. The British People wanted the Opportunity to get out of the Eu out of their Country and when given the opportunity, 17.4 million of them voted to boot the Eu out of their Country.

The best the Eu-philes can come up with is “ The Russians “ How badly in need of a ‘ Baddie “ are ye :eek::eek:

Ye have slipped back into Cult Mode again :eek::eek::D:D