Will Britain piss off and get on with Brexit II (mod warning in OP)

Donald Trump

blinding wrote: »

When someone brings up “ The Russians “ in relation to Brexit and then talks about Trolling.

The British people never Voted to be in the Eu, never showed any sign that they liked or respected the Eu. The British People wanted the Opportunity to get out of the Eu out of their Country and when given the opportunity, 17.4 million of them voted to boot the Eu out of their Country.

The best the Eu-philes can come up with is “ The Russians “ How badly in need of a ‘ Baddie “ are ye :eek::eek:

Ye have slipped back into Cult Mode again :eek::eek::D:D

They didn't boot the EU out of the UK. They booted themselves out of the EU.



That's where we are at now. Now that they are outside they need to try to think of what they are willing to give up to get back inside for the bits they want. Once they have that figured out then they can take or leave whatever is on the table.

fash

blinding wrote: »

When someone brings up “ The Russians “ in relation to Brexit and then talks about Trolling.

The British people never Voted to be in the Eu, never showed any sign that they liked or respected the Eu.

Really? The way I remember things the records show that a tiny minority had any concern with the EU until 2016 - and it was only based on illegal activities and far fetched lies about "no affect on NI border, all benefits, no costs, £350M for NHS, no downsides, only upsides" that the Brexiters won,"of course we will stay in the single market, only a fool would leave the single market" etc. - and that only worked in 2 of 4 countries in the UK - and Brexiters (like you) have been suppressing this reality ever since. Why it that?

The British People wanted the Opportunity to get out of the Eu out of their Country and when given the opportunity, 17.4 million of them voted to boot the Eu out of their Country.

Rather a small amount - especially since those who voted were rather old and have passed away since that vote - yet they bind young peoples future for decades - young people who were not allowed to vote in their future? Hmm, sounds suspiciously undemocratic to me. If only this thread had a "hero of democracy" who could get on that case. If only...

The best the Eu-philes can come up with is “ The Russians “ How badly in need of a ‘ Baddie “ are ye :eek::eek:

So *when* will Comrade Boris release the Russian report? Rather suspicious that it has taken him so long to set up the security committee - I understand the longest time in several decades? Do you think MI6 are conspiracy theorists?

Ye have slipped back into Cult Mode again :eek::eek::D:D

I note you failed to answer my previous questions - are you an honest poster or a troll? Your answer will decide

blinding

Tis funny how ye have no problem with the BBC and Channel 4 being Pro-Remain. The BBC fully funded by all British taxpayers ( not jus Re-Mainers ). Channel 4 being unquestionably for remain despite being part funded by All British Taxpayers ( not just re-Mainers ) but but but “ The Russians “

Ye have no problem with the organisations that should have been Neutral on the Brexit Referendum, but ‘ The Russians ‘

Ye are just like the Democrats in America ! Both of ye, when ye lost through Democracy have to raise the Spectre of Some Baddie so.....” The Russians, The Russians, The Russians "

Joe_ Public

BBC pro remain is a funny one in fairness given its head of politics for the duration of the referendum campaign was arch brexiteer Robbie Gibb who virtually handed Farage a ready platform to spout his lies and gibberish to the nation.

blinding

Joe_ Public wrote: »

BBC pro remain is a funny one in fairness given its head of politics for the duration of the referendum campaign was arch brexiteer Robbie Gibb who virtually handed Farage a ready platform to spout his lies and gibberish to the nation.

Do a poll of the British Electorate on the BBC re; Brexit and they will tell you what they think of the BBC and its anti-Brexit Bias !

The number of People who think the BBC should be closed down over their one side Anti- Brexit Bias is very high !

Joe_ Public

blinding wrote: »

Do a poll of the British Electorate on the BBC re; Brexit and they will tell you what they think of the BBC and its anti-Brexit Bias !

The number of People who think the BBC should be closed down over their one side Anti- Brexit Bias is very high !

I'm sure it's fairly high among hardcore brexiters anyway. Whipping up a storm against the bbc "remoaner establishment' is something the leavers did very well, the gaslighting is strong with them. That veritable nest of remainers such as Andrew Neil, Laura Kuennsberg, Nick Robinson, Jo Cockburn etc.

blinding

Joe_ Public wrote: »

I'm sure it's fairly high among hardcore brexiters anyway. Whipping up a storm against the bbc "remoaner establishment' is something the leavers did very well, the gaslighting is strong with them. That veritable nest of remainers such as Andrew Neil, Laura Kuennsberg, Nick Robinson, Jo Cockburn etc.

The only one of those that would be considered a neutral or slightly pro Brexit would be Andrew Neil.

Because some of the others have softened their Pro Re-Main stance since the big Tory Win in the General Election should not let you forget what went on before.

“ Coincidently ;The BBC Charter ( future of the BBC ) is up for renewal ! And as I say just when the BBC future is to be decided the BBC establishment have suddenly decided they better return to what should always have been the case; Neutral Reporting :eek:

Tis funny that when all the Lefties high paying jobs may come under a modicum of examination they decide that Neutral Reporting is the Correct way to go ! ! !:eek:

You can see by the much more widespread Resistance of the British General Public to paying the License for that shower at the BBC what the General Public think of them ! ! !:eek:

Joe_ Public

I know you've been threadbanned probably everywhere else so this is what's left to get your kicks. Kind of slim pickings, but you take what you can get, i guess.

There's a pretty decent summation of it in the linked article i think, with a couple of links to illuminating independent academic studies which tell a slightly different picture to the unhinged rantings of leavers and right wing zealots.

http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2018/04/17/what-s-actually-going-on-with-the-bbc-and-brexit-bias

eagle eye

This Russian thing is ridiculous. Any leader people don't like is in league with the Russians these days. It's pathetic stuff.

davedanon

eagle eye wrote: »

This Russian thing is ridiculous. Any leader people don't like is in league with the Russians these days. It's pathetic stuff.

So who's in league with the Russians then? Apart from Boris and Donnie obvs. They go without saying.

dd973

I'm hoping for a no deal calamity to wreck the UK. I've nothing against the English, Scots or Welsh but I detest the UK nation state, it's private schools, it's monarchy, nuclear weapons, secret services, GCHQ, it's supine toadying to the Yanks, selling arms to the Saudi's and Israel. Conflating 'British' with 'English' is missing the point, the British state doesn't represent or look after the interests of the English people, it's sole concern is maintaining centuries of corrupt privilege and feudalism.

fash

dd973 wrote: »

I'm hoping for a no deal calamity to wreck the UK. I've nothing against the English, Scots or Welsh but I detest the UK nation state, it's private schools, it's monarchy, nuclear weapons, secret services, GCHQ, it's supine toadying to the Yanks, selling arms to the Saudi's and Israel. Conflating 'British' with 'English' is missing the point, the British state doesn't represent or look after the interests of the English people, it's sole concern is maintaining centuries of corrupt privilege and feudalism.

Speaking of which- a wonderful example of one law for the plebs and (n)one for those who rule:
here
Post Brexit UK begins to show its true nature. Coming just after the termination of that investigation into Johnson and the business awarded to one of his bits on the side.

theological

Donald Trump wrote: »

What about your kids? If they have already been born in the UK or born in the future. Both you and I know that anything you say here is hypothetical because if it comes to it, you can and will get an EU passport for them. Brexit won't limit their right to move and live in France or Germany in the future. They are entitled to it. But the kids down the road won't be.

The point is that the British people voted for Brexit on 3 separate occasions. If the UK says that long term migration to the UK has to be subject to immigration law, then I would expect the same for UK nationals moving to the EU.

Now, since you seem pre-occupied with my personal circumstances. My fiancee is British. I don't have children. My understanding is that if / when I have children and they are brought up in the UK then I think I'd like for them to understand themselves as being British. In the event that they would like to live somewhere else they can apply on the basis of whatever law there is. I'm not planning to move to mainland Europe in the foreseeable future.

I've always understood myself to be primarily a citizen of the world to quote Socrates above being Irish. That is just an accident of origin. I could have been born in Botswana. I've never been stoked with a great deal of nationalistic fervour.

You seem to be keen for me to apply for British citizenship, but in a scenario where it gives me no material benefit I don't see any reason to spend £2,000+ to do so. If the law changed and I needed it to remain in the UK I would do so. I've been here long enough to apply for PR and go through that process if I needed to.

Is that enough for you?

McGiver

McGiver wrote: »

Back to the core issue - when will they piss off finally? They can leave on WTO today.

Theological, why they don't? Tell us please? A rational explanation please.

Theological - reply please. Tell us.

theological

McGiver wrote: »

Theological - reply please. Tell us.

I've answered this several times on this thread already. Please read through my previous posts.

Donald Trump

theological wrote: »

The point is that the British people voted for Brexit on 3 separate occasions. If the UK says that long term migration to the UK has to be subject to immigration law, then I would expect the same for UK nationals moving to the EU.

Now, since you seem pre-occupied with my personal circumstances. My fiancee is British. I don't have children. My understanding is that if / when I have children and they are brought up in the UK then I think I'd like for them to understand themselves as being British. In the event that they would like to live somewhere else they can apply on the basis of whatever law there is. I'm not planning to move to mainland Europe in the foreseeable future.

I've always understood myself to be primarily a citizen of the world to quote Socrates above being Irish. That is just an accident of origin. I could have been born in Botswana. I've never been stoked with a great deal of nationalistic fervour.

You seem to be keen for me to apply for British citizenship, but in a scenario where it gives me no material benefit I don't see any reason to spend £2,000+ to do so. If the law changed and I needed it to remain in the UK I would do so. I've been here long enough to apply for PR and go through that process if I needed to.

Is that enough for you?

You deliberately ignored the point.
The fact that Mary and Johnny's kids down the road have had their automatic birthright to live and work anywhere in the EU taken away from them will not affect you or your children if/when you have them. We both know that, should any of your own children desire it at any stage in their lives, perhaps to go and live in France for a year, they can simply apply for an Irish passport. The neighbours kids will not have that.

Similarly, I don't care if you get British citizenship or not. The important point is that, as you say yourself, you could get it if you want.





You consider yourself a citizen of the world. Good for you. This perfectly illustrates my point. Because you also apparently consider people born in Poland as citizens of Poland only. Not for them citizenship of the world, or at least that part of the world known as the UK!

You are in the privileged position where you can go where you like. Because you think yourself special or better. You want a system where you can go where you like and you can also control and stop others from going where they want to. Isn't this attitude also manifested of the British establishments attitude to Brexit and trade deals?



Some people like to spend their energy trying to improve themselves and working hard on improving and building and creating things so that they are successful relative to others.

Other people prefer to stay where they are at and try to push everyone else down so that the former can be successful relative to the latter. It is up to everyone which they prefer to chose. Those that can't improve or generate something constructive will invariably opt for the second strategy. A lifetime dole recipient in some council estate in Manchester might see people who can't speak English land in their area, get jobs, learn the language and improve their life circumstance over time. Rather than take inspiration to do it themselves, they'd prefer to put roadblocks in the foreigner's way. Unfortunately that same attitude permeates up through the higher "classes" as well. The middle class person who has convinced themselves that they are something special, doesn't want the poor hardworking immigrant to get a foot on the ladder lest they surpass Mr. Middle class and give the lie to his illusion!

theological

I think we need to move on from personalising this.

For the record, I'm having a lot of fun improving my German in the lockdown

But yes, let's keep it to the political points. I'm sorry you don't like my response.

Edit: most countries protect their labour market for nationals. EU countries do this also for non-EU migrants.

Joe_ Public

"We are ending free movement to open up Britain to the world."

- ultimate ladder puller upper, Priti Patel.

ancapailldorcha

Joe_ Public wrote: »

"We are ending free movement to open up Britain to the world."

- ultimate ladder puller upper, Priti Patel.

I'll never get over how the Brits can be so happy signing away their own freedom at the whims of right wing populists. The rest of the world isn't so stupid. They can see how the UK is being governed and they won't be queuing for trade deals if perfidious Albion violates any agreements they've signed including the GFA.

Jamie2k9

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'll never get over how the Brits can be so happy signing away their own freedom at the whims of right wing populists. The rest of the world isn't so stupid. They can see how the UK is being governed and they won't be queuing for trade deals if perfidious Albion violates any agreements they've signed including the GFA.

You make it sound as if UK citizens will never be allowed move elsewhere just because free movement has ended. Many Brits have no interest in moving to other EU countries just like Irish and apply to enter Canada, US, Australia and New Zealand.

Its such a weak argument pro free movement people use. British people for the most part have not benefited from free movement (Irish lesser extent) as those coming from EU.

ancapailldorcha

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

You make it sound as if UK citizens will never be allowed move elsewhere just because free movement has ended. Many Brits have no interest in moving to other EU countries just like Irish don't and apply to enter Canada, US, Australia and New Zealand.

Its such a weak argument pro free movement people use. British people for the most part have not benefited from free movement (Irish lesser extent) as those coming from EU.

Many do have an interest. The right to live and work in 27 countries is worth more than a bit of jingoism IMO.

Last time I checked, there were Irish people actively moving to Australia, Canada and New Zealand. I do not know why you're pretending otherwise.

Jamie2k9

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Many do have an interest. The right to live and work in 27 countries is worth more than a bit of jingoism IMO.

Last time I checked, there were Irish people actively moving to Australia, Canada and New Zealand. I do not know why you're pretending otherwise.

Irish people who applied for permission to enter actively moving to Canada etc. (auto correct on above post). They are far more popular from both nations because they are more culturally aligned than main land Europe.

British can apply to 26 other EU countries to move and have various rights if they want. Aside from those retiring the numbers are lower.

Again its a weak argument implying just bceause free movment ends all rights are gone. Not true.

fash

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

British people for the most part have not benefited from free movement (Irish lesser extent) as those coming from EU.

You've obviously never been to the coast of Spain, Tuscany, much of France- in particular the south - or a ski slope.

Edit: and that is leaving aside the benefits the UK has had from FOM into the country: culturally similar young hard workers who will go home or somewhere closer to home when they are done.
Let's see what the Brexiters think of their North African replacements.

ancapailldorcha

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Irish people who applied for permission to enter actively moving to Canada etc. (auto correct on above post). They are far more popular from both nations because they are more culturally aligned than main land Europe.

British can apply to 26 other EU countries to move and have various rights if they want. Aside from those retiring the numbers are lower.

Again its a weak argument implying just bceause free movment ends all rights are gone. Not true.

I don't believe this to be honest.

I use my right to free movement every single day so I don't see it as trivial.

theological

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

You make it sound as if UK citizens will never be allowed move elsewhere just because free movement has ended. Many Brits have no interest in moving to other EU countries just like Irish don't and apply to enter Canada, US, Australia and New Zealand.

Its such a weak argument pro free movement people use. British people for the most part have not benefited from free movement (Irish lesser extent) as those coming from EU.

Which of course is nonsense. People will keep moving between countries, it is just that they will need to comply with migration controls which is fair enough. If the UK wants more control over immigration then other countries will do this in return.


ancapailldorcha seems to think that the British voters don't realise the implications of wanting stronger border controls.

For tourism they will obviously allow a visa free scheme in any case. Similar to what happens with Turkey.

Jamie2k9

fash wrote: »

You've obviously never been to the coast of Spain, Tuscany, much of France- in particular the south - or a ski slope.

Edit: and that is leaving aside the benefits the UK has had from FOM into the country: culturally similar young hard workers who will go home or somewhere closer to home when they are done.
Let's see what the Brexiters think of their North African replacements.

Yeah all in full time jobs or summer working holiday/retiring?

Again free movement ending will not change this. People may need to fill out forms to apply but those in favour of free movement always try spin the narrative like you have, we can never work in EI again!!!

As for N African replacements we have it here in N Dublin and people will take the same attitude in time.

Donald Trump

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Irish people who applied for permission to enter actively moving to Canada etc. (auto correct on above post). They are far more popular from both nations because they are more culturally aligned than main land Europe.

A lot of ones perception on this will depend on the circles in which you move.


I know a fair few people from my university days who live and work on the continent.


I know a fair few people from the area where I grew up who moved to Australia.


The second group would be predominantly tradesmen or labourers who wouldn't be bothered to learn a new language or have that much interest in exploring a different kind of culture.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

British can apply to 26 other EU countries to move and have various rights if they want. Aside from those retiring the numbers are lower.

Again its a weak argument implying just bceause free movment ends all rights are gone. Not true.

They can apply. They might well be told "no" though. If the local school in your area decided to move from a policy where your kids were automatically entitled to a place, to one where they weren't, perhaps with places allocated by lottery for example, you probably wouldn't think that it was grand because they can always send in an application to see if they get one anyway.



In your case, the absolute ability of UK citizens to move to the EU will, depending on the final agreement, be gone. If that happens then won't be a right anymore. They can ask for permission, and that permission might be granted, but it won't be a right.

Seth Brundle

theological wrote: »

ancapailldorcha seems to think that the British voters don't realise the implications of wanting stronger border controls.

Would these be the same voters who believed the EU was the cause of immigration yet didn't realise their own government had laws to kick out immigrants but didn't really use them?

2u2me

It's hard to care about going on holiday when you can't afford it. 10% of British people have never been abroad in their lifetimes. Many only ever having gone once.

Jamie2k9

Donald Trump wrote: »

A lot of ones perception on this will depend on the circles in which you move.


I know a fair few people from my university days who live and work on the continent.


I know a fair few people from the area where I grew up who moved to Australia.


The second group would be predominantly tradesmen or labourers who wouldn't be bothered to learn a new language or have that much interest in exploring a different kind of culture.

Look there will be a sizable number of Irish working in various European countries however I think if we looked up CSO stats if available more would be going outside EU.

Donald Trump wrote: »

They can apply. They might well be told "no" though. If the local school in your area decided to move from a policy where your kids were automatically entitled to a place, to one where they weren't, perhaps with places allocated by lottery for example, you probably wouldn't think that it was grand because they can always send in an application to see if they get one anyway.

In your case, the absolute ability of UK citizens to move to the EU will, depending on the final agreement, be gone. If that happens then won't be a right anymore. They can ask for permission, and that permission might be granted, but it won't be a right.

Of course not everyone will be accepted. Do you think I should be given a job as a doctor if I don't meet the standards set.

People got used to the rules change in 2004 fairly well, why would it be different this time.

Would these be the same voters who believed the EU was the cause of immigration yet didn't realise their own government had laws to kick out immigrants but didn't really use them?

The powers to send people back only impact a tiny number of people. It was Labour who went full steam ahead in 2004 in terms of movement.