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Will it truly make any difference who forms the next Government.
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Of course living in Dublin is a reality. Tens of thousands will be provided with free housing over the coming years. You could do amazing things like building higher. Stopping land hoarding. Put in proper transport ... mind blowing **** I know0
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LeinsterDub wrote: »It's not much of a city with no hospitals or schools.
Move to a more affordable place and spend your life in a car or train?
Have you been living in Ireland for the last decade? Those who've gone and got an education bettered themselves as you say are struggling by
I commuted 1.5 hours each way working 13hr shifts rotating days/nights because that was my plan, earn up front, pay my pension up front, it’s not impossible, it’s work, it’s a hell of a lot better than constant whinging that someone has to help me because it’s difficult. While doing that I studied part time for 4 years to gain a second degree to improve my employability so o could move to a job closer to home.
Life isn’t easy all the time, but it’s ok for it to be hard for periods while you work hard to move on in life, too many are sitting back expecting SF or PBP to pull a house out of a hat that is free or “affordable”, that’s not happening because some poor soul will need to be taxed out of existence for that cheap house.
Work or don’t work, I don't care, but those that plan, work and make compromises to get ahead usually do, amd if it’s not working for them they need to make the hard choices and make it work. Damn sure no political party will do it for you.0 -
LeinsterDub wrote: »You switch you carbon 0 suppliers.
There was a proposal of group schemes not sure if it was the Greens. Where you do all the houses on a street , village or town land so you get better prices.
Yeah imagine being able to rent a car when you need it and not have to sink thousands into them each year!
I am sure we wont make a **** up of any of this if it comes to it. In Kildare South we cannot even get solar farms in because of the local nimbyism which does need to be tackled.
Getting to carbon 0 without Nuclear will be interesting. Especially as we will need to invest heavily in battery sources for our renewables and we dont currently have a way to sell to the grid.
Imagine being in your own little D4 bubble and not actually needing to rent a car all the time because you have access to public transport and then looking down on those who don't have the same kind of amenities because they had to move out of the cities so they could afford to live. When the greens solve that then they will have a leg to stand on.
The big no-no for the Greens is that if they are a success i see them parroting stuff we are seeing from other green parties across the globe and look to slow the economy down so we can give the likes of China, India and Brazil a chance to grow. Show me the government that willingly stagnates the economy and i will show you one that will be replaced.0 -
Old link but more than my number and straight from the horse's mouth so to speak.LeinsterDub wrote: »And did you use the force or read the coffee grinds to decide this?
Instead of worrying about an unknown percentage of an already tiny percentage. You'd be much better off worrying about the cost of living.
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/one-in-seven-people-on-the-dole-has-never-worked-a-single-day-29278033.html0 -
I commuted 1.5 hours each way working 13hr shifts rotating days/nights because that was my plan, earn up front, pay my pension up front, it’s not impossible, it’s work, it’s a hell of a lot better than constant whinging that someone has to help me because it’s difficult. While doing that I studied part time for 4 years to gain a second degree to improve my employability so o could move to a job closer to home.
Life isn’t easy all the time, but it’s ok for it to be hard for periods while you work hard to move on in life, too many are sitting back expecting SF or PBP to pull a house out of a hat that is free or “affordable”, that’s not happening because some poor soul will need to be taxed out of existence for that cheap house.
Work or don’t work, I don't care, but those that plan, work and make compromises to get ahead usually do, amd if it’s not working for them they need to make the hard choices and make it work. Damn sure no political party will do it for you.
I had to do similar moved from Wicklow down to Laois and went from a 10 minute commute to a 1-1.5 hour commute. Unfortunately/Fortunately i am of the generation that missed the boom and couldn't get credit for a long time in the recession and when i could i had to settle far away.
Even today i don't think i could afford a place where im from in Wicklow, and there is no one out there looking to give me something for nothing. I know many in the commuter belts who are the same.
It will be very hard for any party who doesn't take into consideration what allot of the working tax payer have had to sacrifice into account to get ahead.0 -
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Absolutely
I’ll never say anything else.
I came from a family that had nothing, we worked very hard, both my parents worked in the 70’s when it was unusual, plus both essentially worked two jobs as we bought a farm and paid for that with hard work.
I was the first of my family to go to college but my parents made sacrifices and encouraged it, my wife the same.
We both worked through college to fund ourselves and took crappy jobs, lived where it was inconvenient but we could afford it.
Bought a house through scrimping and saving, build a second the same way.
I will make no apologies that under right and centre right parties it’s possible to educate yourself and succeed but you need to work and work hard amd make compromises.
My daughter is 17 and has been working part time for nearly two years, she doesn’t need to but it’s what we want, workers work,
It’s what needs to be done to succeed in life, she’s earning €18/hr flat rate
Ireland is full or people who won’t educate themselves, won’t educate their children, wont work and don’t expect their children to work, expect everything for free and yet its someone else’s fault when it all goes wrong and they haven’t a pot to piiss in and are living in the middle of gang land nobody’s
You can listen to the banana politics of the left all you want, but we’d be plunged back to the recessions of the 50’s and 70’s if they were in charge. At least with the current governments those who want to work and move forward can do so.
Yea things could be better, but they could be worse.
PBP etc dont want to hear stories like that. It upsets their view of the class war. Education is only for the left wing intelligentsia like Barrett Murphy etc who can then tell the great unwashed how they should live0 -
is_that_so wrote: »Old link but more than my number and straight from the horse's mouth so to speak.
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/one-in-seven-people-on-the-dole-has-never-worked-a-single-day-29278033.html
Considering the dole isn't a thing it's hard to know how 1 in 7 can be on it but again you focus on less 1% of the potential workforce. That'll improve your lot0 -
LeinsterDub wrote: »Eh welcome to a western democracy. You subsidise lots of things that's little or no benefit for you because that's how it works. You pay tax it's pooled together and projects for the social good are paid for it by them. How do you think your roads are maintained? I don't use your road can I suggest it's unfair. Perhaps you'd like to discuss the rural subvention?
Ok, there's no need to talk to me like I'm 5, I understand how taxes work.
Public transport is revenue generating at the moment but you want to stop that and turn it into a cost. But yet all the benefits you listed rely on more people ditching the car and taking public transport. That isn't an option for a lot people. The money that you would use to fund this initiative would be more effective widening the PT network, thus giving more people an alternative to the car, rather than your idea, which will increase passenger numbers while also simultaneously cutting a revenue source.
Someone has to pay for it and I dont think, in this particular case, (and this is just my opinion so no need to get too worked up over it) that the users gaining the most benefit should be the ones to get the freebie.0 -
Of course it matters as to who forms the next government. Party manifestos and all that jazz!
Broadly speaking the country is ticking along nicely with the current administration, and I must say the FG Brexit team has been bullet proof. Economy is very healthy too.
....and if it ain't broke don't fix it, so they say.
Fianna Fail would be similar in power (see manifesto for details), while Sinn Fein are guaranteed to destroy everything that FG have built in recent years, SF are also toxic and untrustworthy so best given a wide birth.
Simples, that's it in a nutshell.0 -
Most of the big influences on Ireland are external - policy made in the UK, USA, EU, the Middle East. All we can do is steer a path between the ditches to the benefit of the greatest number of people. That essentially means competency spending what we have, of which alas there is scant evidence. Regardless of which party leads the next government vast sums will be frittered away for no return.0
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StupidLikeAFox wrote: »Ok, there's no need to talk to me like I'm 5, I understand how taxes work.
Public transport is revenue generating at the moment but you want to stop that and turn it into a cost. But yet all the benefits you listed rely on more people ditching the car and taking public transport. That isn't an option for a lot people. The money that you would use to fund this initiative would be more effective widening the PT network, thus giving more people an alternative to the car, rather than your idea, which will increase passenger numbers while also simultaneously cutting a revenue source.
Someone has to pay for it and I dont think, in this particular case, (and this is just my opinion so no need to get too worked up over it) that the users gaining the most benefit should be the ones to get the freebie.
So you're OK with the rural subventions and also the motoring subventions. But someone has to pay for public transportation and even though you'll benefit for it directly or indirectly you think this is unfair?0 -
LeinsterDub wrote: »Eh welcome to a western democracy. You subsidise lots of things that's little or no benefit for you because that's how it works. You pay tax it's pooled together and projects for the social good are paid for it by them. How do you think your roads are maintained? I don't use your road can I suggest it's unfair. Perhaps you'd like to discuss the rural subvention?
I think the issue that is increasingly apparent in western society is that those who work are not adequately rewarded for their effort.
Above them, those that own property or receive unearned income (landlords, shares, investment income, inherited wealth etc.) don't have to put in any effort for their income and are more favourably taxed.
Below them, those that don't want to work and get everything handed to them, to the extent that a Margaret Cash has as much disposable income as a TD renting a one-bedroom apartment in Dublin (before anyone asks, I did the maths on this about six months ago in another thread).
Most parties are not addressing this squeezed middle. Parties like Fianna Fail are actually proposing to increase the wealth of those at the top by reducing CGT rates. Other parties of the left are promising to reduce or eliminate the LPT. Only in Ireland would you have left-wing parties proposing to reduce taxes on the wealthy. Nonsense.0 -
I think the issue that is increasingly apparent in western society is that those who work are not adequately rewarded for their effort.
Above them, those that own property or receive unearned income (landlords, shares, investment income, inherited wealth etc.) don't have to put in any effort for their income and are more favourably taxed.
Below them, those that don't want to work and get everything handed to them, to the extent that a Margaret Cash has as much disposable income as a TD renting a one-bedroom apartment in Dublin (before anyone asks, I did the maths on this about six months ago in another thread).
Most parties are not addressing this squeezed middle. Parties like Fianna Fail are actually proposing to increase the wealth of those at the top by reducing CGT rates. Other parties of the left are promising to reduce or eliminate the LPT. Only in Ireland would you have left-wing parties proposing to reduce taxes on the wealthy. Nonsense.
As I've been constantly say. It's the cost of living we need to tackle but some seem to think that if they constantly give out about a tiny fraction of a percentage of the potential workforce their lives will be improved and worse yet they use this fraction as a justification to vote in the same 2 parties over and over.
The same two parties who will look after their mates time and time again. And when the type you see on this thread say they are being squeezed they'll point to that fraction and say it's their fault all the while trillion dollar companies pay a fraction of their actual profits in tax.0 -
I think the issue that is increasingly apparent in western society is that those who work are not adequately rewarded for their effort.
Above them, those that own property or receive unearned income (landlords, shares, investment income, inherited wealth etc.) don't have to put in any effort for their income and are more favourably taxed.
Below them, those that don't want to work and get everything handed to them, to the extent that a Margaret Cash has as much disposable income as a TD renting a one-bedroom apartment in Dublin (before anyone asks, I did the maths on this about six months ago in another thread).
Most parties are not addressing this squeezed middle. Parties like Fianna Fail are actually proposing to increase the wealth of those at the top by reducing CGT rates. Other parties of the left are promising to reduce or eliminate the LPT. Only in Ireland would you have left-wing parties proposing to reduce taxes on the wealthy. Nonsense.
Some of the problems here are that the lefties don’t realise that in this country they are in a symbiotic relationship with the wealthy, in that they need wealthy people to pay for their freebies. If you tax away the wealthy you have no cow to milk anymore, so to speak. In addition we have over the last 12 years got rid of a lot of the wealthy in this country. The money is still being made off the people but is going abroad, cos you can’t get wealthy in this co7ntry. CGT kills the accumulation of wealth, for what, a one off quick spend fix, whereas if someone had accumulated wealth they would have the money to invest in Ireland in these times. Slowly but surely if we stick with fg/ff policies with the consistent interlude of a leftie/rightie combo govt to keep in the centre we should eventually rise the tide for everyone.
However, people need to remember that every giveaway has a bill with it. If there’s one item you should be cribbing about it’s am I getting value for the tax money spent in my name, and if not, what do I want the give to do. Most people back the civil service strikes or whomever strikes but then they whinge about not having enough services. We have enough tax collected it just costs too much to get value from it.0 -
Some of the problems here are that the lefties don’t realise that in this country they are in a symbiotic relationship with the wealthy, in that they need wealthy people to pay for their freebies. If you tax away the wealthy you have no cow to milk anymore, so to speak. In addition we have over the last 12 years got rid of a lot of the wealthy in this country. The money is still being made off the people but is going abroad, cos you can’t get wealthy in this co7ntry. CGT kills the accumulation of wealth, for what, a one off quick spend fix, whereas if someone had accumulated wealth they would have the money to invest in Ireland in these times. Slowly but surely if we stick with fg/ff policies with the consistent interlude of a leftie/rightie combo govt to keep in the centre we should eventually rise the tide for everyone.
However, people need to remember that every giveaway has a bill with it. If there’s one item you should be cribbing about it’s am I getting value for the tax money spent in my name, and if not, what do I want the give to do. Most people back the civil service strikes or whomever strikes but then they whinge about not having enough services. We have enough tax collected it just costs too much to get value from it.
You'd be a long time milking the Google cow dry.0 -
Imagine being in your own little D4 bubble and not actually needing to rent a car all the time because you have access to public transport and then looking down on those who don't have the same kind of amenities because they had to move out of the cities so they could afford to live. When the greens solve that then they will have a leg to stand on.
The big no-no for the Greens is that if they are a success i see them parroting stuff we are seeing from other green parties across the globe and look to slow the economy down so we can give the likes of China, India and Brazil a chance to grow. Show me the government that willingly stagnates the economy and i will show you one that will be replaced.
Who is looking down their nose? As for slowing the economy, the Greens have said nothing about this. So I can only assume this is a straw man.0 -
LeinsterDub wrote: »You'd be a long time milking the Google cow dry.
No you wouldn’t, the profit doesn’t come here it goes back to America and when we change the tax law to take more of it they’ll move on, look at Puerto Rico. Desolate.0 -
No you wouldn’t, the profit doesn’t come here it goes back to America and when we change the tax law to take more of it they’ll move on, look at Puerto Rico. Desolate.
Not if we acted as a European whole. Puerto Rico is no way comparable to Ireland. Isn't it interesting how you jump to defend trillion dollar companies while telling the poor they should accept their lot.0 -
LeinsterDub wrote: »Not if we acted as a European whole. Puerto Rico is no way comparable to Ireland. Isn't it interesting how you jump to defend trillion dollar companies while telling the poor they should accept their lot.
Never told the poor they should accept their lot but told them they can only take so much from the cow before they kill the beast that gives them the milk. Or makes her not want to bother anymore. It’s about realising what the sweet spot is, Jesus even the mob knew that you gotta give the shop owner some profit or he’ll walk.0 -
LeinsterDub wrote: »Who is looking down their nose? As for slowing the economy, the Greens have said nothing about this. So I can only assume this is a straw man.
The many who cannot seem to empathise with those who dont have options but to commute ect from long distances to work.
There is climate change proposal, cannot remember the exact name now that says one of the better ways to tackle is to stop or cool economic growth in developed countries and allot the likes of India and China to go nuts.
Its degrowth.
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/degrowth-fetishists-just-be-honest-you-would-make-people-poorer-to-fight-climate-change-1.39872390 -
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Who is talking about killing the cow? Most parties on the left are talking about a finger on the scales. The balance has certainly shifted too much in favour of a tiny percentage of peopleNever told the poor they should accept their lot but told them they can only take so much from the cow before they kill the beast that gives them the milk. Or makes her not want to bother anymore. It’s about realising what the sweet spot is, Jesus even the mob knew that you gotta give the shop owner some profit or he’ll walk.0 -
We actually have someone in the local greenparty proposing it but i am not sure what the outcome of the motion was.
https://www.greenparty.ie/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Convention-2019-Web-Version.pdfThat the Green Party adopts a policy of supporting a move away from Economic Growth & Gross Domestic Product (GDP) to Degrowth, or Steady State Economy as a stepping stone in the near future, to ensure
a sustainable future for us all on the planet.
Rationale: You cannot have constant economic growth on a finite planet. An annual growth
of 3% will double the economy in 23 years. We have not decoupled economic growth from
greenhouse gas emissions and the natural world resource depletion. Economic growth
via consumerism is leading to runaway climate change and mass extinctions in nature.
The level of world GDP at present is more than sufficient to support workers with a living
wage around the world, and certainly in the West. The problem is gross inequality where
the rich are getting richer, and some insanely rich, and the poor are getting poor. We need
to spread current GDP’s more equably among citizens.0 -
People find it difficult to empathise with people who say public transport doesn’t work for my journey so we shouldn't do it. I've seen this opinion so many times.The many who cannot seem to empathise with those who dont have options but to commute ect from long distances to work.
There is climate change proposal, cannot remember the exact name now that says one of the better ways to tackle is to stop or cool economic growth in developed countries and allot the likes of India and China to go nuts.
Its degrowth.
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/degrowth-fetishists-just-be-honest-you-would-make-people-poorer-to-fight-climate-change-1.3987239
There is a difference between saying you want degrowth and them saying growth can't continue forever.
That article doesn't even say that the Greens want degrowth. It simply says they want to measure progress differently. In fact it doesn't say who wants degrowth0 -
LeinsterDub wrote: »People find it difficult to empathise with people who say public transport doesn’t work for my journey so we shouldn't do it. I've seen this opinion so many times.
There is a difference between saying you want degrowth and them saying growth can't continue forever.
That article doesn't even say that the Greens want degrowth. It simply says they want to measure progress differently. In fact it doesn't say who wants degrowth
No one saying it wont work but invest rather than have policies that are all about the stick and no carrot. If we have the infrastructure first then we can bring out the stick not the other way around.
The second item i linked had a degrowth policy linked to Dublin South in the Greens. I don't know what the out come of the motion was though.0 -
LeinsterDub wrote: »So you're OK with the rural subventions and also the motoring subventions. But someone has to pay for public transportation and even though you'll benefit for it directly or indirectly you think this is unfair?
You are advocating for free public transport and I'm saying it's a bonkers proposal. Why would you give people who can afford public transport, free transport, which would cost a lot of money, when you could take that very same pot of money and give a greater number of people the access to public transport?
Option 1: Give people who already have access to public transport a reduction in cost, while punishing those who have no option to use public transport
Option 2: Invest in the public transport network to make public transport available to a wider number of people
Which one of those options is the greener outcome?0 -
StupidLikeAFox wrote: »You are advocating for free public transport and I'm saying it's a bonkers proposal. Why would you give people who can afford public transport, free transport, which would cost a lot of money, when you could take that very same pot of money and give a greater number of people the access to public transport?
Option 1: Give people who already have access to public transport a reduction in cost, while punishing those who have no option to use public transport
Option 2: Invest in the public transport network to make public transport available to a wider number of people
Which one of those options is the greener outcome?
Option 3 : Do both.0 -
No one saying it wont work but invest rather than have policies that are all about the stick and no carrot. If we have the infrastructure first then we can bring out the stick not the other way around.
The second item i linked had a degrowth policy linked to Dublin South in the Greens. I don't know what the out come of the motion was though.
Which left policy is all stick and no carrot and be specific. In order for public transport to work in some places cars will have to go be it parking spaces or lanes. This isn't new its been slowly happening since the 80s
I see no evidence the greens have a degrowth policy and something like that would be fairly major news0 -
LeinsterDub wrote: »Let me guess , if I suggested that perhaps the trillion dollar companies could afford to give a bit more you'd be totally against this?
I always find it interesting that people always point to large multinationals when looking to blame someone for X, Y or Z where X, Y or Z relate to some disparity of wealth between social classes or relate to some Tax "opinion"
Lets take one of the biggest ones as an example: Google
Google (Alphabet) have 103,549 employees as of 2018 (Probably higher now)
7000 of those staff are based in Ireland (again these are 2018 figures)
The average yearly salary of a Google employee is €60k (And that's VERY conservative)
Taking into consideration that they pay at least 5% of that into a pension, an employees tax is €16,863 P/A
So that means, by providing so much employment Tax Revenue is up €118,041,000, and that's assuming all the persons disposable income leaves the country.
Now take into account that those employees pay VAT on everything they buy along with other indirect taxes and provide business for the local shops, restaurants, cafes and bars in the vicinity of Google HQ
And also take into account that Google paid €272,000,000 in tax last year
You're talking well over half a billion euro a year in Tax Revenue from JUST ONE large multinational!
And you're "idea" is to put your hand out and ask for more, to make up for our nations lack of planning and cop on :rolleyes:
We need to move away from blaming others and take a look in the mirror.
It shocks me the amount of people in Ireland that have never planned for anything!
As the old saying goes: Fail to plan, plan to fail.... In in Ireland: Fail to plan, it's grand sure, the government will sort it out, sure it's their fault anyway.Im interested in your line '..... over half of our elected officials are millionaires'. How is that?
It was in the news last week: (But this is a year old article)
https://www.joe.ie/politics/political-rich-list-625828...
There are currently 158 Teachta Dálas working in Ireland. It's believed that half of these are now worth more than €1 million.
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I'm not looking to blame anyone.Beta Ray Bill wrote: »I always find it interesting that people always point to large multinationals when looking to blame someone for X, Y or Z where X, Y or Z relate to some disparity of wealth between social classes or relate to some Tax "opinion"
Lets take one of the biggest ones as an example: Google
Google (Alphabet) have 103,549 employees as of 2018 (Probably higher now)
7000 of those staff are based in Ireland (again these are 2018 figures)
The average yearly salary of a Google employee is €60k (And that's VERY conservative)
Taking into consideration that they pay at least 5% of that into a pension, an employees tax is €16,863 P/A
So that means, by providing so much employment Tax Revenue is up €118,041,000, and that's assuming all the persons disposable income leaves the country.
Now take into account that those employees pay VAT on everything they buy along with other indirect taxes and provide business for the local shops, restaurants, cafes and bars in the vicinity of Google HQ
And also take into account that Google paid €272,000,000 in tax last year
You're talking well over half a billion euro a year in Tax Revenue from JUST ONE large multinational!
And you're "idea" is to put your hand out and ask for more, to make up for our nations lack of planning and cop on :rolleyes:
We need to move away from blaming others and take a look in the mirror.
It shocks me the amount of people in Ireland that have never planned for anything!
As the old saying goes: Fail to plan, plan to fail.... In in Ireland: Fail to plan, it's grand sure, the government will sort it out, sure it's their fault anyway.
It was in the news last week: (But this is a year old article)
https://www.joe.ie/politics/political-rich-list-625828
Their employees are paying tax I'm not sure why you think I should be impressed by it.
They are reporting Billions of euro in profit on trillions of euro of revenue worldwide and thanks to creative accounting you think 171 million in Ireland is a fair amount of tax for them to pay?
https://www.rte.ie/amp/1012900/
As to your point about people not planning you pretty much just maybe that up on the spot right?0 -
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Beta Ray Bill wrote: »I always find it interesting that people always point to large multinationals when looking to blame someone for X, Y or Z where X, Y or Z relate to some disparity of wealth between social classes or relate to some Tax "opinion"
Lets take one of the biggest ones as an example: Google
Google (Alphabet) have 103,549 employees as of 2018 (Probably higher now)
7000 of those staff are based in Ireland (again these are 2018 figures)
The average yearly salary of a Google employee is €60k (And that's VERY conservative)
Taking into consideration that they pay at least 5% of that into a pension, an employees tax is €16,863 P/A
So that means, by providing so much employment Tax Revenue is up €118,041,000, and that's assuming all the persons disposable income leaves the country.
Now take into account that those employees pay VAT on everything they buy along with other indirect taxes and provide business for the local shops, restaurants, cafes and bars in the vicinity of Google HQ
And also take into account that Google paid €272,000,000 in tax last year
You're talking well over half a billion euro a year in Tax Revenue from JUST ONE large multinational!
And you're "idea" is to put your hand out and ask for more, to make up for our nations lack of planning and cop on :rolleyes:
We need to move away from blaming others and take a look in the mirror.
It shocks me the amount of people in Ireland that have never planned for anything!
As the old saying goes: Fail to plan, plan to fail.... In in Ireland: Fail to plan, it's grand sure, the government will sort it out, sure it's their fault anyway.
It was in the news last week: (But this is a year old article)
https://www.joe.ie/politics/political-rich-list-625828
Great post.
We need good employment opportunities for those that want to be employed and progress their lives.
It’s also worth mentioning that along with the employment directly in a MN company you typically have 50% more working in support roles for contract companies and associated suppliers.
MN companies here have been a massive boon for the country and employees. We need more of them, we need to make it more attractive for them to come. I would offer them free sites and 10+ years absolute tax free status if they locate in places like Cavan, Mayo, Leitrim Monaghan, larger tax breaks for locating in the counties with the least current employment.0
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