Will it truly make any difference who forms the next Government.

Beta Ray Bill

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I'm not looking to blame anyone.

Their employees are paying tax I'm not sure why you think I should be impressed by it.

They are reporting Billions of euro in profit on trillions of euro of revenue worldwide and thanks to creative accounting you think 171 million in Ireland is a fair amount of tax for them to pay?

https://www.rte.ie/amp/1012900/

They paid €272m in tax in 2018, an effective tax rate of 16%

Everyone needs to be treated equally, there are small to medium size companies, contractors, and self employed people that pay WAY less that 16% corporate tax rate, in fact they engineer it so that there is close to zero on the books at the end of each year to avoid corporate tax. (Every IT contractor knows this!)

We can can't have a rule/law for one set of people and a different rule/law for a another set of people.

The reality is that if we hammer these large corps with more and more Tax, they'll eventually leave.
It wont be over night, but it will definitely be gradual.
The company I work for just relocated the HR function to the UK, a number of people are being made redundant, and the operation was done very quickly. It can and will happen.

They provide high paying jobs here, it's in no ones interest for them to scale back.

LeinsterDub wrote: »

As to your point about people not planning you pretty much just maybe that up on the spot right?

In terms of planning, I think it's every parents job to ensure that their kids know what awaits them if the fail to plan, and to let them know what it feels like in their later teens and early 20's as opposed to finding out in their 30's

My oul lad had me working on rewiring houses since I was 16, paid me f**k all (less than min wage). This happened at least 2 weekends a month. I learned very quickly that I didn't want to do this and went to college. Which I paid for myself, worked all day Saturday and all day Sunday and Thursday and Friday evenings in some dump offo.
I failed my exams in 2nd year and through my own absolute stupidity I missed the resit. :mad:
As soon as the oul lad found out, it was back working as a spark again and working in that sh*tty off... I nice kick up the hole and dose of what awaits if I didn't cop on.

These were very difficult lessons at the time, I remember freaking out about missing the resit test.
I'd even considered emigrating. (To which I was told by my mother, as soon as you move out of this house you're not coming back unless you're paying the going rate in rent)
But these lessons made me learn to plan ahead, hope for the best, prepare for the worst.

I now work for one of these large multi nationals that have a small presence in Ireland and it's a good job.

In terms of my mates, I'd say less than 10% of them have achieved what they are capable of achieving, most were to busy partying and travelling and living off Mam and Dad. They're in their 30's now and are seriously struggling (especially the ones with kids) because they didn't plan and put the head down when they needed to.

Just to add, I'm not for a rich area, I'm basically from Kilbarrack (Barrytown), I live less than 3 mins from the train station.
And my parents split up when I was 3... we never had money.

Idbatterim

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

You are advocating for free public transport and I'm saying it's a bonkers proposal. Why would you give people who can afford public transport, free transport, which would cost a lot of money, when you could take that very same pot of money and give a greater number of people the access to public transport?

Option 1: Give people who already have access to public transport a reduction in cost, while punishing those who have no option to use public transport
Option 2: Invest in the public transport network to make public transport available to a wider number of people

Which one of those options is the greener outcome?

The free travel pass gives free transport to people that can afford to pay for it

Idbatterim

LeinsterDub wrote: »

As I've been constantly say. It's the cost of living we need to tackle but some seem to think that if they constantly give out about a tiny fraction of a percentage of the potential workforce their lives will be improved and worse yet they use this fraction as a justification to vote in the same 2 parties over and over.

The same two parties who will look after their mates time and time again. And when the type you see on this thread say they are being squeezed they'll point to that fraction and say it's their fault all the while trillion dollar companies pay a fraction of their actual profits in tax.

I think there is a moral issue with what some of the multinationals pay or don’t pay. That isn’t going to be an easy fix. Paying Margaret cash and the Pyjama brigade out billions a year to lie on their backs ? Easy fix !

Thelonious Monk

_Brian wrote: »

we need to make it more attractive for them to come. I would offer them free sites and 10+ years absolute tax free status if they locate in places like Cavan, Mayo, Leitrim Monaghan, larger tax breaks for locating in the counties with the least current employment.

Currently there is absolutely nothing attractive about locating in these places, and how would you entice skilled workers to live there? No one wants to live in these places, with their zero public transport and dispersed populations, that's why they all set up in Dublin! Something non Dubs can't seem to grasp. I would also imagine that anyone from these places who becomes highly skilled also wants to move on to bigger and better things in Dublin, London etc. and not stay in some horrible backwater town.

_Brian

Idbatterim wrote: »

I think there is a moral issue with what some of the multinationals pay or don’t pay. That isn’t going to be an easy fix. Paying Margaret cash and the Pyjama brigade out billions a year to lie in their backs ? Easy fix !

MN companies here pay more in taxes per head of population than in other EU countries.

They are paying their way.

More so the direct employment, indirect employment and associated economic activity they generate is massively important and beneficial to the whole country.

Beta Ray Bill

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Currently there is absolutely nothing attractive about locating in these places, and how would you entice skilled workers to live there? No one wants to live in these places, with their zero public transport and dispersed populations, that's why they all set up in Dublin! Something non Dubs can't seem to grasp. I would also imagine that anyone from these places who becomes highly skilled also wants to move on to bigger and better things in Dublin, London etc. and not stay in some horrible backwater town.

A lot of companies do offer working from home now.

I know guys that get the Bus up once a week for meetings and do the rest of the week in Carlow.

It's becoming an option.

Thelonious Monk

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

A lot of companies do offer working from home now.

I know guys that get the Bus up once a week for meetings and do the rest of the week in Carlow.

It's becoming an option.

Sure it might suit some companies, but when you see comments on the Journal moaning about a new Facebook or Linkedin campus being built in Dublin bemoaning the fact that it isn't locating in Ballygobackwards, it just shows how out of touch people are with how these businesses operate.

Beta Ray Bill

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Sure it might suit some companies, but when you see comments on the Journal moaning about a new Facebook or Linkedin campus being built in Dublin bemoaning the fact that it isn't locating in Ballygobackwards, it just shows how out of touch people are with how these businesses operate.

Exactly!
Which is straight back to my first point People expect to much.

_Brian

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Currently there is absolutely nothing attractive about locating in these places, and how would you entice skilled workers to live there? No one wants to live in these places, with their zero public transport and dispersed populations, that's why they all set up in Dublin! Something non Dubs can't seem to grasp. I would also imagine that anyone from these places who becomes highly skilled also wants to move on to bigger and better things in Dublin, London etc. and not stay in some horrible backwater town.

Look at towns like Navan/Kells/Ardee all commuter town full of people moaning about traffic to Dublin.

Fact the car the other way and drive a carefree journey to Cavan or Monaghan, heck relocate there where housing is cheaper.

Much of the local population commute and local work would be preferable.

No bother providing a few thousand skilled workers in either of these counties.

Thelonious Monk

_Brian wrote: »

Look at towns like Navan/Kells/Ardee all commuter town full of people moaning about traffic to Dublin.

Fact the car the other way and drive a carefree journey to Cavan or Monaghan, heck relocate there where housing is cheaper.

Much of the local population commute and local work would be preferable.

No bother providing a few thousand skilled workers in either of these counties.

Vote Green and they might put a rail line to Navan finally!
Really though what kind of companies would want to set up in Cavan and Monaghan?

LeinsterDub

Idbatterim wrote: »

The free travel pass gives free transport to people that can afford to pay for it

Same could be said of education, fire stations , AGS....

Motoring is basically free, yet we've no issue with billions of subventions being pumped into it annually

Beta Ray Bill

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Motoring is basically free

How is motoring free?

LeinsterDub

Idbatterim wrote: »

I think there is a moral issue with what some of the multinationals pay or don’t pay. That isn’t going to be an easy fix. Paying Margaret cash and the Pyjama brigade out billions a year to lie in their backs ? Easy fix !

Can't we do both?

Figures for context.

https://whereyourmoneygoes.gov.ie/en/socialprotection/2020/

blanch152

LeinsterDub wrote: »

As I've been constantly say. It's the cost of living we need to tackle but some seem to think that if they constantly give out about a tiny fraction of a percentage of the potential workforce their lives will be improved and worse yet they use this fraction as a justification to vote in the same 2 parties over and over.

The same two parties who will look after their mates time and time again. And when the type you see on this thread say they are being squeezed they'll point to that fraction and say it's their fault all the while trillion dollar companies pay a fraction of their actual profits in tax.

I don't disagree, but some of the solutions you propose only add to the issues.

For example, free public transport sounds like a good idea, but how would it work in practice? Well, we have 2 million people, nearly 50% of the population, with free medical cards. As a result, A&E is crowded with people who have minor injuries or illnesses, or who are just drunk or drugged, because there is zero cost to access A&E and they might as well sit there rather than wait for the GP in the morning. Free anything increases demand. Not only that, but free services lead to abuses.

Most other European countries operate a highly subsidised approach rather than a free approach. In some countries, no matter who you are, it costs around €10 to visit a GP with the rest paid for by the government. Anyone can afford this, even a pensioner, even someone on the dole. They afford it in these European countries on far lower social welfare rates than Ireland.

Similarly with public transport. You don't get free public transport so you can ride a train all over the country drinking your way around and causing rows and fights on the inter-city trains as we see regularly in Ireland. Instead, everyone pays a modest cost. Instead of €3.30 for the bus into Dublin for those without free transport, everyone pays €1. That means you reduce the cost for the vast majority of people and you ensure that the service is not abused by those who get it for free.

Another example of abuse is the number of people who get free appointments from the HSE but don't turn up. That leaves the State paying the physio, consultant, nurse etc., for sitting around waiting for a no-show. Again, a small modest cost deals with this issue. If someone on a medical card was getting a €20 fine for missing an appointment that wasn't cancelled, they would be notifying the HSE the previous day.

LeinsterDub

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

How is motoring free?

Basically free, the basically is important. Externalised costs of motoring is 650 euro per person per year

LeinsterDub

blanch152 wrote: »

I don't disagree, but some of the solutions you propose only add to the issues.

For example, free public transport sounds like a good idea, but how would it work in practice? Well, we have 2 million people, nearly 50% of the population, with free medical cards. As a result, A&E is crowded with people who have minor injuries or illnesses, or who are just drunk or drugged, because there is zero cost to access A&E and they might as well sit there rather than wait for the GP in the morning. Free anything increases demand. Not only that, but free services lead to abuses.

Most other European countries operate a highly subsidised approach rather than a free approach. In some countries, no matter who you are, it costs around €10 to visit a GP with the rest paid for by the government. Anyone can afford this, even a pensioner, even someone on the dole. They afford it in these European countries on far lower social welfare rates than Ireland.

Similarly with public transport. You don't get free public transport so you can ride a train all over the country drinking your way around and causing rows and fights on the inter-city trains as we see regularly in Ireland. Instead, everyone pays a modest cost. Instead of €3.30 for the bus into Dublin for those without free transport, everyone pays €1. That means you reduce the cost for the vast majority of people and you ensure that the service is not abused by those who get it for free.

Another example of abuse is the number of people who get free appointments from the HSE but don't turn up. That leaves the State paying the physio, consultant, nurse etc., for sitting around waiting for a no-show. Again, a small modest cost deals with this issue. If someone on a medical card was getting a €20 fine for missing an appointment that wasn't cancelled, they would be notifying the HSE the previous day.

Every other European country have free for everyone health care without massive queues. Our system is totally broken because it's riding two horses. We need SlainteCare now .

Don't the type's who'd ride the rails all day drinking already have free travel? It seems to me people come on here complain that people have all these freebies, you offer them the same and they say no? Free transport is fairly cheap.

I've no problem with charging or otherwise punishing people abusing the system

Beta Ray Bill

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Basically free, the basically is important. Externalised costs of motoring is 650 euro per person per year

I do about 9,000kms per year

Last year I spent approx €2200 on tolls (which goes to government), fuel (most of which goes to government) and tax (which goes to government).
Add another €600 if taking insurance into account.
More again if you factor in servicing and maintenance.

It's not free or basically free.

Running a car in Ireland is expensive.

LeinsterDub

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

I do about 9,000kms per year

Last year I spent approx €2200 on tolls (which goes to government), fuel (most of which goes to government) and tax (which goes to government).
Add another €600 if taking insurance into account.
More again if you factor in servicing and maintenance.

It's not free or basically free.

Running a car in Ireland is expensive.

And after all that expense your still being subsidised someone should really provide an alternative.

The majority of people don't use toll roads that often , their roads are free, parking is often free or highly subsidised.

The maintenance and running of your private property is your concern . I was referring use and damage of the public space which is basically free.

Idbatterim

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

I do about 9,000kms per year

Last year I spent approx €2200 on tolls (which goes to government), fuel (most of which goes to government) and tax (which goes to government).
Add another €600 if taking insurance into account.
More again if you factor in servicing and maintenance.

It's not free or basically free.

Running a car in Ireland is expensive.

With electric cars , it’s as good as free. Excluding the cost of car , which can now be as low as 5k for an older leaf , which would suit many people. The Chinese are now bringing an ev to Europe to fairly cheap. They are going to have to increase motor tax substantially on fossil fuel and ev cars. Because they are not going to be able to address the issue around not being able to raise electric prices by much / if at all.

lawrencesummers

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

I do about 9,000kms per year

Last year I spent approx €2200 on tolls (which goes to government), fuel (most of which goes to government) and tax (which goes to government).
Add another €600 if taking insurance into account.
More again if you factor in servicing and maintenance.

It's not free or basically free.

Running a car in Ireland is expensive.

Don’t a lot of tolls go to public private partnerships?

Idbatterim

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Don’t a lot of tolls go to public private partnerships?

Tolls are cheaper In ev! That is some amount of tolls you pay !!! Assume you do a lot of driving !

blanch152

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Every other European country have free for everyone health care without massive queues. Our system is totally broken because it's riding two horses. We need SlainteCare now .

Don't the type's who'd ride the rails all day drinking already have free travel? It seems to me people come on here complain that people have all these freebies, you offer them the same and they say no? Free transport is fairly cheap.

I've no problem with charging or otherwise punishing people abusing the system

Every other European country doesn't have free health care or free travel. They have heavily subsidised arrangements with small symbolic charges that act as a control on demand and further penalties for abuse.

We need to do the same. A €10 charge for the GP or A&E for everyone, a €1 charge for public transport etc. etc.

In France, if you don't have a ticket on the train, you will often get caught.

Idbatterim

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Same could be said of education, fire stations , AGS....

Motoring is basically free, yet we've no issue with billions of subventions being pumped into it annually

Reducing the motor tax to near nothing for most cars since 2008 , was a fairly idiotic move, particularly for a nation that doesn’t have a motoring industry ! And then they try to address the climate change problem , by giving us an even worse problem at local level with diesel !

Beta Ray Bill

LeinsterDub wrote: »

And after all that expense your still being subsidised someone should really provide an alternative.

I get what you are saying. If I didn't have a kid I wouldn't own a car.
I use public transport when ever I can.

However if you take into account new car sales and tax on anything motor related, its clear to see that it's not subsidised at all!

€286m has been reserved this year for roads and other infra.

In the early 00's VRT alone was generating around €800m a year.
I accept that it's probably not making that kind of money now.
However it's very clear that motoring is a huge revenue generator in Ireland.

LeinsterDub wrote: »

The majority of people don't use toll roads that often

So I'd say at least 70% of my KM's are on the M50.

LeinsterDub wrote: »

their roads are free, parking is often free or highly subsidised.

Not in Dublin during the week there isn't. Red zones are €2.70 an hour.
8 hour working day equates to €108 per week (if you had absolutely no option but to drive into town everyday)

LeinsterDub wrote: »

The maintenance and running of your private property is your concern . I was referring use and damage of the public space which is basically free.

Agreed!
That's why I left those prices out of the €2,200 figure

LeinsterDub

blanch152 wrote: »

Every other European country doesn't have free health care or free travel. They have heavily subsidised arrangements with small symbolic charges that act as a control on demand and further penalties for abuse.

We need to do the same. A €10 charge for the GP or A&E for everyone, a €1 charge for public transport etc. etc.

In France, if you don't have a ticket on the train, you will often get caught.

I should have said a single payer system not free. I've no problem with what you said as a comprise position

LeinsterDub

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

I get what you are saying. If I didn't have a kid I wouldn't own a car.
I use public transport when ever I can.

However if you take into account new car sales and tax on anything motor related, its clear to see that it's not subsidised at all!


€286m has been reserved this year for roads and other infra.

In the early 00's VRT alone was generating around €800m a year.
I accept that it's probably not making that kind of money now.
However it's very clear that motoring is a huge revenue generator in Ireland.

This reports disagrees with you.
https://stopclimatechange.net/fileadmin/content/documents/move-green/The_true_costs_of_cars_EN.pdf

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

Not in Dublin during the week there isn't. Red zones are €2.70 an hour.
8 hour working day equates to €108 per week (if you had absolutely no option but to drive into town everyday)

Nearly no one has to drive into Dublin, there are lots of options, the ones who do , do so often because their parking is free to them. It's not free to society as a whole

Beta Ray Bill

LeinsterDub wrote: »

This reports disagrees with you.
https://stopclimatechange.net/fileadmin/content/documents/move-green/The_true_costs_of_cars_EN.pdf

Car ownership within the EU is cheapest in Germany and Spain as far as I am aware.
I doubt very much that report reflects on the high tax on anything motor related that we have in Ireland.

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Nearly no one has to drive into Dublin, there are lots of options, the ones who do , do so often because their parking is free to them. It's not free to society as a whole

I get that too, public transport has come along way. (I always use the DART)
That being said, nearly every street parking spot is taken during the working day in Dublin, and traffic is worse than it's ever been. (I don't even use a motorcycle to get into work anymore it's that bad!)

LeinsterDub

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

Car ownership within the EU is cheapest in Germany and Spain as far as I am aware.
I doubt very much that report reflects on the high tax on anything motor related that we have in Ireland.

It does.

zom

Will it truly make any difference who forms the next Government.

Only core supporters of Fianna Gael can suggest it will not.
GO AND VOTE PEOPLE !!!! If you want any changes - GO AND VOTE!!

blanch152

zom wrote: »

Only core supporters of Fianna Gael can suggest it will not.
GO AND VOTE PEOPLE !!!! If you want any changes - GO AND VOTE!!

There are two questions within one election this time out. People need to choose which question is more important.

Question 1: Who should lead the government, FG or FF? If you believe this is the most important question, then vote for either FG or FF. A government will not happen without the biggest one of these two leading it. If you are someone who detests FG with a passion, you have no option but to vote for FF in order to keep FG out.

Question 2: Which party would you most like to see in government with either FG or FF? If this is the most important question to you, vote for one of the other parties, be that SF, Greens, SDs, Labour or a suitable independent etc. (PBP won't go into government so only vote for them if you don't want to vote for the government). Whichever of these parties does best will have the best chance of being in government, and their influence will be proportionate to their size. They won't get all or even most of their policies implemented, but they will have significant influence.

For me, a Green influence on government trumps all other options. I don't agree with everything they say (and Saoirse McHugh is on the opposite wing of the Green spectrum to me) but it is vital that the Greens have an influence over government for at least the next decade.