Heifers coming 2 Years

DBK1

Bass Reeves wrote: »

At best meal feeding stores is break even. Assuming a conversation rate of 8-1 with 2kgs you will achieve 250 grams of LW. Converting that to DW at s 55%KO gives 0.1375grams of DW worth 55c at 4/kg. In this assumption we are assuming on the silage that the ration is replacing there is no weight gain.

While there may have been a marginal gain if meal fed from start of the winter there is no real value in starting feeding meal now. On going to grass compensatory growth will balance any ration fed now. The only difference between meal feeding for the winter and not is that you are giving Larry an extra 16kgs DW that there is very little or no margin in for you

I don’t really see the point of “storing” cattle over the winter. If your cattle aren’t growing they aren’t making money, the aim should be to keep them growing at all times. I agree that it’s too late to start feeding them meal now but for next winter there’s no point making the same mistakes again.

The extra 16 kilos of dead weight could be the difference in having them fit to kill at 29 months instead of 30 months and once you go over the 30 months the price of every kilo is dropping. It would also mean you have replacements in sooner so you can start trying to make a margin on them a lot sooner.

DBK1

squinn2912 wrote: »

Keep this post live it would be interesting to see how they go. The guys advocating removing the meal would you advise that for younger stock? We have more weanlings from last year than stores as most of them are for breeding and getting no meal. Stores getting 1.5 kg and weanlings and calves on one suck a day getting 2kgs. I’d always give them cattle meal all winter

Yes it will benefit the young stock even more than the older stock. Weanlings shouldn’t see any meal for at least 3 to 4 weeks before turnout. That gives than a small growth stunt and when they get out in the spring then the high feed value grass will drive them on. Good silage would be in the 72+ dmd and about 13%+ protein. Spring grass will be above 80 dmd and above 20% protein. You won’t get the full value out of it if the stock haven’t had that slight growth stunt before going out on it.

squinn2912

DBK1 wrote: »

Yes it will benefit the young stock even more than the older stock. Weanlings shouldn’t see any meal for at least 3 to 4 weeks before turnout. That gives than a small growth stunt and when they get out in the spring then the high feed value grass will drive them on. Good silage would be in the 72+ dmd and about 13%+ protein. Spring grass will be above 80 dmd and above 20% protein. You won’t get the full value out of it if the stock haven’t had that slight growth stunt before going out on it.

At that rate would you not be concerned about them going backwards without meal for what, 8-10 weeks? I might try out two pens side by side and give one meal and the other none to test it out but it won’t be this year. 2kgs a day keeps everything moving forwards I think

Bass Reeves

DBK1 wrote: »

I don’t really see the point of “storing” cattle over the winter. If your cattle aren’t growing they aren’t making money, the aim should be to keep them growing at all times. I agree that it’s too late to start feeding them meal now but for next winter there’s no point making the same mistakes again.

The extra 16 kilos of dead weight could be the difference in having them fit to kill at 29 months instead of 30 months and once you go over the 30 months the price of every kilo is dropping. It would also mean you have replacements in sooner so you can start trying to make a margin on them a lot sooner.

As long as your silage is fairly good I see no point in feeding ration to store cattle. I generally have no issue getting cattle out pre 30 months and most that I kill are friesians. As I have shown on good quality cattle even at 4/kg the ration is break even at best. However there is another issue while this weight may not seem to be losing you money it is competing against you in the market. We know that we have increased numbers because of dairy stock but extra weight also creates extra beef. Working off an average DW of 345 kgs accross heifers and bullocks 16 kgs extra weight means you are producing an extra animal in ever 20 cattle. This equivilent to 1750 cattle/week why produce these cattle for no profit to the farmer.

DBK1

squinn2912 wrote: »

At that rate would you not be concerned about them going backwards without meal for what, 8-10 weeks? I might try out two pens side by side and give one meal and the other none to test it out but it won’t be this year. 2kgs a day keeps everything moving forwards I think

It would be only 3 to 4 weeks without meal. I agree with your 2 kg figure as well. I find it’s enough for weanlings when silage is good. But give them 3 kgs for the first half of the winter and then wean it back until they are getting none for the last 3 or 4 weeks pre turnout. You will still be feeding them the same amount of meal over the winter as you are now when giving them the 2 kgs every day, they are just getting more of it earlier in the year. They should hit the ground running then when they get to grass and thrive well as they have already adjusted to not having the meal.

I don’t claim to be an expert by the way and the only science I’m using is personal experience and a weighing scales for the past few years but it works for me!

DBK1

Bass Reeves wrote: »

As long as your silage is fairly good I see no point in feeding ration to store cattle. I generally have no issue getting cattle out pre 30 months and most that I kill are friesians. As I have shown on good quality cattle even at 4/kg the ration is break even at best. However there is another issue while this weight may not seem to be losing you money it is competing against you in the market. We know that we have increased numbers because of dairy stock but extra weight also creates extra beef. Working off an average DW of 345 kgs accross heifers and bullocks 16 kgs extra weight means you are producing an extra animal in ever 20 cattle. This equivilent to 1750 cattle/week why produce these cattle for no profit to the farmer.

As I said above I don’t claim to be an expert but I can just base it on previous experience and what works for me. I don’t have cows, I buy in all my stock and at the minute I have anything from U+ limousine to O- (or possibly even P) grade Hereford. It’s all heifers I keep and I’d be aiming to be killing them at about 21 to maybe 25 months old. Herefords would be averaging 280 to 290 kilos dw and continentals averaging about 360 to 370 kilos dw.

I take your point about the meal maybe only being break even but at €25 a bale to make good quality silage I don’t think feeding silage alone would be any better than break even either. Feeding the meal will improve confirmation score as well which makes every kilo more valuable.

I also take your point on producing the extra weight but unless every farmer in the country is going to commit to killing either lighter or less cattle then there’s no point me alone reducing mine to try and keep the market up.

gmurf100

DBK1 wrote: »

Yes apologies, I missed the part in your post where you said they only gained 0.5 kgs per day since you bought them last June so they were probably averaging about 380 kilos when you bought them. There is definitely something causing a problem at that weight gain. If they were just off cows when you bought them you would expect them to go back a bit before starting to grow again but they should be doing a lot better than they are. You would expect them to have done 0.7/0.8 kilos a day on grass last summer so that would leave your winter weight gain at only 0.25 or 0.3 kilos a day and that’s definitely not paying you.

I don’t know what your system is or if you normally finish stock or sell as stores? At the weight they are now for their age you could be better off selling as stores, there’s good money being made for stores at the minute in the mart. They will take a fair bit of feeding to have fit for killing and it may not pay you to do it

II know you said your silage is good but not tested. Would you consider getting it tested to see what the feed value is, it only costs about the price of 1 bale of silage and at least you know what you have. Silage can look good and smell good but still have a poor feed value, it depends on how the grass was before cutting.

I know it is probably too late for meal feeding now but at least you’d be better set up for next year if you can solve this years problems.

Thanks DBK1, you are correct a bunch of 10 were bought very shortly after being weaned, and it seams to be these that are bringing the averages down. Usually we sell on as forward stores but lacking the thrive and condition I was hoping for. I will look into getting the silage tested. Would both first and second cut need testing? Also the silage ground is fragmented probably best to sample from all areas to get a true reading.

gmurf100

DBK1 wrote: »

As I said above I don’t claim to be an expert but I can just base it on previous experience and what works for me. I don’t have cows, I buy in all my stock and at the minute I have anything from U+ limousine to O- (or possibly even P) grade Hereford. It’s all heifers I keep and I’d be aiming to be killing them at about 21 to maybe 25 months old. Herefords would be averaging 280 to 290 kilos dw and continentals averaging about 360 to 370 kilos dw.

I take your point about the meal maybe only being break even but at €25 a bale to make good quality silage I don’t think feeding silage alone would be any better than break even either. Feeding the meal will improve confirmation score as well which makes every kilo more valuable.

I also take your point on producing the extra weight but unless every farmer in the country is going to commit to killing either lighter or less cattle then there’s no point me alone reducing mine to try and keep the market up.

That’s good going DBK1.
What age and weight do you buy them in at? What LW do they need to be to get them into 370 kg DW?

Do you find the continentals better for leaving you a return over Angus or Hereford’s?

Bass Reeves

DBK1 wrote: »

As I said above I don’t claim to be an expert but I can just base it on previous experience and what works for me. I don’t have cows, I buy in all my stock and at the minute I have anything from U+ limousine to O- (or possibly even P) grade Hereford. It’s all heifers I keep and I’d be aiming to be killing them at about 21 to maybe 25 months old. Herefords would be averaging 280 to 290 kilos dw and continentals averaging about 360 to 370 kilos dw.

I take your point about the meal maybe only being break even but at €25 a bale to make good quality silage I don’t think feeding silage alone would be any better than break even either. Feeding the meal will improve confirmation score as well which makes every kilo more valuable.

I also take your point on producing the extra weight but unless every farmer in the country is going to commit to killing either lighter or less cattle then there’s no point me alone reducing mine to try and keep the market up.

A 750kg silage bale at 33%dmd is costing about 10c/kg of DM. Most lads feeding ration are paying at least 230-240/ton at about 85%DM or nearly 300/ton DM. So 20c/kg extra.

I find 2-3 other issues, since giving up feeding ration to stores(I would still feed it to weanlings) I have lo issue with crows and less waste silage.

On costs depending on what DM silage you have the feeding costs for 450kg stores Inc minerals is from about 70-110 cent/ day. Adding two kgs ration will add at least 40c/ day.

If farmers start to reduce meal input we are taking cost out of the system and taking excess production.out of the system

squinn2912

Bass Reeves wrote: »

A 750kg silage bale at 33%dmd is costing about 10c/kg of DM. Most lads feeding ration are paying at least 230-240/ton at about 85%DM or nearly 300/ton DM. So 20c/kg extra.

I find 2-3 other issues, since giving up feeding ration to stores(I would still feed it to weanlings) I have lo issue with crows and less waste silage.

On costs depending on what DM silage you have the feeding costs for 450kg stores Inc minerals is from about 70-110 cent/ day. Adding two kgs ration will add at least 40c/ day.

If farmers start to reduce meal input we are taking cost out of the system and taking excess production.out of the system

What minerals are you feeding? Do you also feed them in outdoor months?

I misinterpreted the idea of feeding meal and then cutting back. For about 3 weeks we do cut it back and go to once a day meal - when we can let the smaller weanlings or stores out to grass during the day we would meal them to get them used to coming back in. Maybe a kg a day. It helps keep them decent too for any handling

Bass Reeves

squinn2912 wrote: »

What minerals are you feeding? Do you also feed them in outdoor months?

I misinterpreted the idea of feeding meal and then cutting back. For about 3 weeks we do cut it back and go to once a day meal - when we can let the smaller weanlings or stores out to grass during the day we would meal them to get them used to coming back in. Maybe a kg a day. It helps keep them decent too for any handling

I feed a General purpose beef mineral. I feed during the housing period. I cattle for copper in late April early May. I get a maize/barley/ hulls mix for 6-8 weeks pre slaughter during the summer with no minerals. I change over to a 14%nut for feeding pre slaughter during the autumn. Minerals are got from dairygold

Robson99

Would feed stores about 1.5kg of amix of Rolled barley, Soya and minerals over the winter months and cut out altogether for last 4 weeks before turnout
Just find the small bit of barley keeps them warm...and does them no harm
Get copper injection when bought in and again going to grass
Hi Maize Meal for 6-8 weeks before knifing off grass

DBK1

gmurf100 wrote: »

Thanks DBK1, you are correct a bunch of 10 were bought very shortly after being weaned, and it seams to be these that are bringing the averages down. Usually we sell on as forward stores but lacking the thrive and condition I was hoping for. I will look into getting the silage tested. Would both first and second cut need testing? Also the silage ground is fragmented probably best to sample from all areas to get a true reading.

If you normally sell as forward stores then you definitely should be feeding some bit of meal during the winter. Your stock will weigh heavier and look better too. The meal will put a shine on them and when they come into the ring lads will know they are looked after. Another job I would recommend is clipping them when going into the shed. Clip a strip 8 or 10 inches wide from their neck back and clip all the back quarters, down the back legs and the tail. It keeps them cleaner and helps them to regulate their body temp in the shed and is a big help for treating for lice. If you’re on a bedded shed and you have access to peat I couldn’t recommend it highly enough. The cattle are spotless clean on it, the very same as cattle out on grass. When you go to the mart then your cattle will stand out over everyone else’s as being clean and well minded.

In an ideal world you would be sampling every field of silage you cut but that can get expensive. I would say your best to sample your first cut anyway as this is probably your biggest cut. If the batches of silage you made were small you could take samples from a few different groups that you think would be similar enough and mix them and send it in as the one sample then. You will get an average over the few cuts the and it will give you a good starting point.

DBK1

gmurf100 wrote: »

That’s good going DBK1.
What age and weight do you buy them in at? What LW do they need to be to get them into 370 kg DW?

Do you find the continentals better for leaving you a return over Angus or Hereford’s?

I would buy in continental weanlings from a mart in Kerry from about August to October. From 280 to 350 kilos or thereabouts. They would be 6 to 9 months old. This year they averaged €2.26 per kilo and they would be about 2 thirds U grade and 1 third good R grades. I’d buy more then in the spring time. The Hereford I buy as suck calves in March/April.

R+ to U grade continental heifers will kill out at an average of about 58% so to get to 370 dw they would be about 635 kilos live weight. Real good U+ will kill out at 60% or more if well fed. Hereford will kill out anything from 48% to 54/55%.

I sent a load of herefords last week and with the Hereford bonus and all included they possibly are leaving as much of a margin as the continentals. I’ll have to look back through the merchant bills and work it out.

DBK1

Bass Reeves wrote: »

A 750kg silage bale at 33%dmd is costing about 10c/kg of DM. Most lads feeding ration are paying at least 230-240/ton at about 85%DM or nearly 300/ton DM. So 20c/kg extra.

I find 2-3 other issues, since giving up feeding ration to stores(I would still feed it to weanlings) I have lo issue with crows and less waste silage.

On costs depending on what DM silage you have the feeding costs for 450kg stores Inc minerals is from about 70-110 cent/ day. Adding two kgs ration will add at least 40c/ day.

If farmers start to reduce meal input we are taking cost out of the system and taking excess production.out of the system

Feeding meal will also improve confirmation score. If you can get an animal from an R= into an R+ you will add 6 cent a kilo so for a 350 kilo carcass this will be €21 on top of the 16 kilos extra dw from your earlier calculation which at €4 a kilo is €64 so you now have a benefit of €85. If you take a 130 day winter and your calculation of 40 cent per day for meal this would cost €52 so you are €33 per head better off and that’s not putting any value on the silage you’ve saved. If you can get an O+ animal into an R- it’s worth 12 cent per kilo extra and going from an O- to an O= is worth 14 cent per kilo extra with the QA difference so the value of the meal over the cost is worth a lot more in them scenarios than the example I’ve given above.

All I know is I keep cattle to try and make money out of them and over the last 5 years since I started weighing them I know I can’t afford not to feed meal.

gmurf100

DBK1 wrote: »

I would buy in continental weanlings from a mart in Kerry from about August to October. From 280 to 350 kilos or thereabouts. They would be 6 to 9 months old. This year they averaged €2.26 per kilo and they would be about 2 thirds U grade and 1 third good R grades. I’d buy more then in the spring time. The Hereford I buy as suck calves in March/April.

R+ to U grade continental heifers will kill out at an average of about 58% so to get to 370 dw they would be about 635 kilos live weight. Real good U+ will kill out at 60% or more if well fed. Hereford will kill out anything from 48% to 54/55%.

I sent a load of herefords last week and with the Hereford bonus and all included they possibly are leaving as much of a margin as the continentals. I’ll have to look back through the merchant bills and work it out.

The continental heifer weanlings you buy in at 280 to 350 kilos / 6 to 9 months old what age would you factory them at ?

gmurf100

gmurf100 wrote: »

The continental heifer weanlings you buy in at 280 to 350 kilos / 6 to 9 months old what age would you factory them at ?

Sorry DBK1, I see you kill at 21 to 25 months. This means you winter twice. Where would the best value be, winter twice and factory or winter once, feed on and sell as forward stores?

DBK1

gmurf100 wrote: »

Sorry DBK1, I see you kill at 21 to 25 months. This means you winter twice. Where would the best value be, winter twice and factory or winter once, feed on and sell as forward stores?

Some of the best of them would be killed off grass in September or October the following year. A lot of them would end up maybe 1 and a half winters being killed from November to maybe the end of this month and the remainder I would let back to grass and kill in May/June. These would have been the lightest and youngest when purchased and would take to much feeding to have killed during the winter. The most profitable would be the ones killed off grass before the second winter, even if they have a lighter dw, but they haven’t had the expense of being housed again. At the time of year I buy them you need to be getting them at 320 kilos or above to aim for that kill and it’s hard to get them at that stage as a lot of the weanlings for sale are only 6 to 8 months old at that stage.