Trump: Middle East peace plan announced

rapul

MonkeyTennis wrote: »

id turn my sarcasm detector on for a start

Wrong thread for sarcasm, quite a serious matter

end of the road

Edgware wrote: »

If they get back within their borders will they be allowed live in peace?

if they get back within their borders, stop war mongering, playing the victim and all else then i see no reason why they wouldn't.
worst case it would go a huge way to help them, best case more powers might actually be willing to have dealings with them including the neighbours who are currently hostile to them due to their current behaviour.

MonkeyTennis

rapul wrote: »

Wrong thread for sarcasm, quite a serious matter

Its a very serious matter which makes Kushner et al all the more galling

Padraig Mor

Edgware wrote: »

Palestine can either depend in their "Arab brothers" who have used and abused them for years to keep their own people under control or they can sit down with Israel who have also used and abused them. Both parties will have to realise that the only hope for peace is significant compromise from each. Otherwise it will just continue to be conflict after conflict. Israel or Palestine are not going away.

You miss the point as, to be fair, the overwhelming majority of people do. Palestinians and other Arabs have for decades tried to negotiate in good faith with the Israelis but it is the latter who have - deliberately - scuppered every attempt at peace. The Israelis do not want peace - they want the Palestinians gone from what they regard as their land "because God said so". If they thought they'd get away with it I've little doubt they'd kill or expel every last Palestinian.

Did you know that the Palestinians and every other significant Arab and Persian faction, including - shock horror - the Iranians and Hamas, have agreed to recognise a state of Israel within the 1967 boundaries - since 1970? The same boundaries which are recognised by the UN and all international bodies - even though they are giving up land stolen not just in 1948, but in further wars of conquest by Israel too. That they have also agreed to let Jersualem be an international city and act as the capital of both Israeli and Palestinian states? And much more! The only side that have ever made any meaningful concessions are the Palestinians. But the Israelis are just not interested. It's beyond the scope of a Boards post to get in detail, but history shows that every time the Palestinians move closer to peace or, especially, look like casting aside their internal differences and working together, the Israelis initiate bloodshed - because they do not want peace.

This current plan would be hilarious if it wasn't so serious. It literally gives Israel pretty much everything that they want - in complete violation of the UN. That the Palestinians weren't even invited to the launch says it all. Seems to me Bibi is worried about his upcoming trial and the March elections - and he knows nothing sells better with Israeli voters than taking land or lives from Palestinians. My betting is he told Trump he's annexing the West Bank at the weekend, and that the US had better throw something together to give the tasteless spectacle a glimmer of dignity.

The plan has much in common with other previous efforts - note in particular that it is the Palestinians who must do X, Y and Z and then, maybe, if Israel feels like it, they might let them have a useless scrap of land in the desert or something - but we all know they won't even do that. The Israelis? They get everything, now - despite being the agressor.

The reports of the plan do bring to the surface something which is rarely mentioned in the Western press - note the reference to Israel establishing its "permanent borders". This is a reference to one of the major obstacles to peace - Israel has never actually defined its borders. No, really! So going back over the decades, how could the Palestinians recognise Israel.......when the Israelis wouldn't say which bits were "theirs".

I'm actually amazed this story isn't getting more traction - this is the single biggest change in the area in 50 years.

Finally, anyone who wants to know the root of the whole issue and just why the Palestinians feel aggrieved should read the following piece:
http://www.kinghussein.gov.jo/kabd_eng.html

It was written by the King of Jordan six months prior to the founding of Israel and eloquently describes the fears of those who already lived in the land. The intervening 70 odd years only underscore just how correct the piece was. It really is required reading for anyone with an interest in the conflict - go on, it'll take you ten minutes and you'll learn a lot! Ironically, the same piece was hosted on the webpage of, of all people, Benjamin Netanyahu a number of years ago (maybe it still is) together with his "proof" that it was incorrect. His proof? Quotes from the Bible. Literally "God said it's our land". And this is the guy with his finger on the nuclear button who rails about the Iranians being fanatics?

golfball37

The most annoying thing for me is the feeling Netanyahu set off on this course a few years ago to distract from his personal corruption.

CrankyHaus

They make a desolation and call it peace

Edgware

Padraig Mor wrote: »

You miss the point as, to be fair, the overwhelming majority of people do. Palestinians and other Arabs have for decades tried to negotiate in good faith with the Israelis but it is the latter who have - deliberately - scuppered every attempt at peace. The Israelis do not want peace - they want the Palestinians gone from what they regard as their land "because God said so". If they thought they'd get away with it I've little doubt they'd kill or expel every last Palestinian.

Did you know that the Palestinians and every other significant Arab and Persian faction, including - shock horror - the Iranians and Hamas, have agreed to recognise a state of Israel within the 1967 boundaries - since 1970? The same boundaries which are recognised by the UN and all international bodies - even though they are giving up land stolen not just in 1948, but in further wars of conquest by Israel too. That they have also agreed to let Jersualem be an international city and act as the capital of both Israeli and Palestinian states? And much more! The only side that have ever made any meaningful concessions are the Palestinians. But the Israelis are just not interested. It's beyond the scope of a Boards post to get in detail, but history shows that every time the Palestinians move closer to peace or, especially, look like casting aside their internal differences and working together, the Israelis initiate bloodshed - because they do not want peace.

This current plan would be hilarious if it wasn't so serious. It literally gives Israel pretty much everything that they want - in complete violation of the UN. That the Palestinians weren't even invited to the launch says it all. Seems to me Bibi is worried about his upcoming trial and the March elections - and he knows nothing sells better with Israeli voters than taking land or lives from Palestinians. My betting is he told Trump he's annexing the West Bank at the weekend, and that the US had better throw something together to give the tasteless spectacle a glimmer of dignity.

The plan has much in common with other previous efforts - note in particular that it is the Palestinians who must do X, Y and Z and then, maybe, if Israel feels like it, they might let them have a useless scrap of land in the desert or something - but we all know they won't even do that. The Israelis? They get everything, now - despite being the agressor.

The reports of the plan do bring to the surface something which is rarely mentioned in the Western press - note the reference to Israel establishing its "permanent borders". This is a reference to one of the major obstacles to peace - Israel has never actually defined its borders. No, really! So going back over the decades, how could the Palestinians recognise Israel.......when the Israelis wouldn't say which bits were "theirs".

I'm actually amazed this story isn't getting more traction - this is the single biggest change in the area in 50 years.

Finally, anyone who wants to know the root of the whole issue and just why the Palestinians feel aggrieved should read the following piece:
http://www.kinghussein.gov.jo/kabd_eng.html

It was written by the King of Jordan six months prior to the founding of Israel and eloquently describes the fears of those who already lived in the land. The intervening 70 odd years only underscore just how correct the piece was. It really is required reading for anyone with an interest in the conflict - go on, it'll take you ten minutes and you'll learn a lot! Ironically, the same piece was hosted on the webpage of, of all people, Benjamin Netanyahu a number of years ago (maybe it still is) together with his "proof" that it was incorrect. His proof? Quotes from the Bible. Literally "God said it's our land". And this is the guy with his finger on the nuclear button who rails about the Iranians being fanatics?

Got it.
Palestine always good

Israel always bad.
Plenty room for optimism so.

jam_mac_jam

Padraig Mor wrote: »

You miss the point as, to be fair, the overwhelming majority of people do. Palestinians and other Arabs have for decades tried to negotiate in good faith with the Israelis but it is the latter who have - deliberately - scuppered every attempt at peace. The Israelis do not want peace - they want the Palestinians gone from what they regard as their land "because God said so". If they thought they'd get away with it I've little doubt they'd kill or expel every last Palestinian.

Did you know that the Palestinians and every other significant Arab and Persian faction, including - shock horror - the Iranians and Hamas, have agreed to recognise a state of Israel within the 1967 boundaries - since 1970? The same boundaries which are recognised by the UN and all international bodies - even though they are giving up land stolen not just in 1948, but in further wars of conquest by Israel too. That they have also agreed to let Jersualem be an international city and act as the capital of both Israeli and Palestinian states? And much more! The only side that have ever made any meaningful concessions are the Palestinians. But the Israelis are just not interested. It's beyond the scope of a Boards post to get in detail, but history shows that every time the Palestinians move closer to peace or, especially, look like casting aside their internal differences and working together, the Israelis initiate bloodshed - because they do not want peace.

This current plan would be hilarious if it wasn't so serious. It literally gives Israel pretty much everything that they want - in complete violation of the UN. That the Palestinians weren't even invited to the launch says it all. Seems to me Bibi is worried about his upcoming trial and the March elections - and he knows nothing sells better with Israeli voters than taking land or lives from Palestinians. My betting is he told Trump he's annexing the West Bank at the weekend, and that the US had better throw something together to give the tasteless spectacle a glimmer of dignity.

The plan has much in common with other previous efforts - note in particular that it is the Palestinians who must do X, Y and Z and then, maybe, if Israel feels like it, they might let them have a useless scrap of land in the desert or something - but we all know they won't even do that. The Israelis? They get everything, now - despite being the agressor.

The reports of the plan do bring to the surface something which is rarely mentioned in the Western press - note the reference to Israel establishing its "permanent borders". This is a reference to one of the major obstacles to peace - Israel has never actually defined its borders. No, really! So going back over the decades, how could the Palestinians recognise Israel.......when the Israelis wouldn't say which bits were "theirs".

I'm actually amazed this story isn't getting more traction - this is the single biggest change in the area in 50 years.

Finally, anyone who wants to know the root of the whole issue and just why the Palestinians feel aggrieved should read the following piece:
http://www.kinghussein.gov.jo/kabd_eng.html

It was written by the King of Jordan six months prior to the founding of Israel and eloquently describes the fears of those who already lived in the land. The intervening 70 odd years only underscore just how correct the piece was. It really is required reading for anyone with an interest in the conflict - go on, it'll take you ten minutes and you'll learn a lot! Ironically, the same piece was hosted on the webpage of, of all people, Benjamin Netanyahu a number of years ago (maybe it still is) together with his "proof" that it was incorrect. His proof? Quotes from the Bible. Literally "God said it's our land". And this is the guy with his finger on the nuclear button who rails about the Iranians being fanatics?

That's a really interesting essay. Thanks for posting that.

James Brown

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »

There is no perfect plan, that will appease both sides equally...

Unless you have such a plan?

No matter what anyone comes up with, there will always be people that will be unhappy with it. But I do think this could work potentially.

This is not a peace plan.
It's Trump and BiBi trying to legitimise Israeli aggression and theft.

James Brown

Edgware wrote: »

Got it.
Palestine always good

Israel always bad.
Plenty room for optimism so.

You obviously do not.

statesaver

Neither side want peace.

They want to eliminate each other and it looks like Israel will win comfortably.

Sad but true.

Edgware

Matt Barrett wrote: »

You obviously do not.

Yes I have

James Brown

statesaver wrote: »

Neither side want peace.

They want to eliminate each other and it looks like Israel will win comfortably.

Sad but true.

Decent people on both sides want peace. This is not a peace agreement. That requires both sides. This was put to the Palestinians.

Israeli aggression and land grabbing needs to stop then talks can begin.

statesaver

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Decent people on both sides want peace. This is not a peace agreement. That requires both sides. This was put to the Palestinians.

Israeli aggression and land grabbing needs to stop then talks can begin.

Oh i agree with all you said but the world will do fcuk all about it.

Israeli win.

Sad but true.

Edgware

statesaver wrote: »

Oh i agree with all you said but the world will do fcuk all about it.

Israeli win.

Sad but true.

You'll get over it

James Brown

statesaver wrote: »

Oh i agree with all you said but the world will do fcuk all about it.

Israeli win.

Sad but true.

They haven't completed the genocide, and Trump won't be in power forever, neither will BiBi. Things can change. Also don't forget there are decent people in Israel and the United States.

notobtuse

The plan provides the Palestinians an opportunity to achieve their own state and live in peace. And in several years, if they denounce terrorism, they can push for more concessions and come away with a better deal. Bottom line... Israel is here to stay. But with the Palestinian leader’s comments over the deal they are only making it less likely that they’ll ever achieve statehood... or ever prosper.

James Brown

notobtuse wrote: »

The plan provides the Palestinians an opportunity to achieve their own state and live in peace. And in several years, if they denounce terrorism, they can push for more concessions and come away with a better deal. Bottom line... Israel is here to stay. But with the Palestinian leader’s comments over the deal they are only making it less likely that they’ll ever achieve statehood... or ever prosper.

Israel isn't here to stay. How can you say that? It changes size almost on a daily basis. Shouldn't a legitimate state/country be defined within borders? Some form of Israel will remain, sure.
Your POTUS is an ignorant inhumane bully boy. What peace comes from one side and it's backers son in law, dictating to the other? I suppose anything goes to support Trump. I was never a fan of the republicans but they use to have their own standard in ethics and morals.
The Palestinians are right.
BiBi has some nerve taking part in holocaust remembrances considering he's more in common with the Nazis.

CrankyHaus

Matt Barrett wrote: »

They haven't completed the genocide, and Trump won't be in power forever, neither will BiBi. Things can change. Also don't forget there are decent people in Israel and the United States.

How many decent people did we need on this island, Britain the US and elsewhere working for years to get even a shaky peace in NI?

Both Israel and Palestine have nothing close to the critical mass of people willing to make the concessions required for peace. The closest they got was in the 90s and even then there were too many on either side who preferred the chance of total victory over that of a compromise peace. Since then Israel has become comfortable with waging a forever war at relatively low human cost to itself while the Palestinian leaderships have no intention to resile from conditions that Israel will never accept.

Foreign powers aren't much help either, and in some cases deliberately keep the pot boiling for their own interests.
The US vacillates between tacit (Obama) and explicit (Trump) support for Israel's actions.
Iran was delighted to arm Hamas as another one of its proxies, until they fell out over the Syrian civil war. Now Qatar and Erdogan's Turkey have stepped in to support it.

Sadly, peace in Israel-Palestine isn't coming any time soon.

James Brown

CrankyHaus wrote: »

How many decent people did we need on this island, Britain the US and elsewhere working for years to get even a shaky peace in NI?

Both Israel and Palestine have nothing close to the critical mass of people willing to make the concessions required for peace. The closest they got was in the 90s and even then there were too many on either side who preferred the chance of total victory over that of a compromise peace. Since then Israel has become comfortable with waging a forever war at relatively low human cost to itself while the Palestinian leaderships have no intention to resile from conditions that Israel will never accept.

Foreign powers aren't much help either, and in some cases deliberately keep the pot boiling for their own interests.
The US vacillates between tacit (Obama) and explicit (Trump) support for Israel's actions.
Iran was delighted to arm Hamas as another one of its proxies, until they fell out over the Syrian civil war. Now Qatar and Erdogan's Turkey have stepped in to support it.

Sadly, peace in Israel-Palestine isn't coming any time soon.

True. Trump playing this like he's creating some historical peace deal is disgusting to watch and listen to.

Eric Cartman

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Israel isn't here to stay. How can you say that? It changes size almost on a daily basis. Shouldn't a legitimate state/country be defined within borders? Some form of Israel will remain, sure.
Your POTUS is an ignorant inhumane bully boy. What peace comes from one side and it's backers son in law, dictating to the other? I suppose anything goes to support Trump. I was never a fan of the republicans but they use to have their own standard in ethics and morals.
The Palestinians are right.
BiBi has some nerve taking part in holocaust remembrances considering he's more in common with the Nazis.

Absolutely agreed.

When Donny got elected , talking about how the US doesn't get value for money defending other nations etc... I was hoping he was talking about Israel, sadly doubled down on support. However I don't think its right to lay blame for this situation on him, he is not the first president either side of the aisle to allow this to continue without condemnation or confrontation. America needs to sever its links equating criticism of israel with anti semitism and the power the israel lobby has at denying candidates who go against them entry to the whitehouse using media strongarming. The dem candidates will have to kiss that blood stained ring too.

Palestine definitely has a negative roll to play and Hamas are absolute lowlifes for their actions but its like a 6 year old lowlife harassing a rugby team who arent afraid to punch children.

An Actual two state solution is needed, this is the weakest form of that which gives the palestinians barely enough to make a state, and thats if Israel even actually keeps its word and doesnt roll roughshod over the deal.

James Brown

Trump is not to blame but he is an enabler and an opportunist. This is his son in law guiding U.S. policy here. How the American's put up with it is beyond me.
Hamas feed off Israeli policy.
The two state solution is the way to go for sure.
Israel are the aggressor here, trying to sell it like they just want to be and go about their business is a lie.
I know Israelis who want peace. Netenyahu drums up the rhetoric for votes. Hopefully both he and Trump go down soon.

fly_agaric

The US partisanship towards Israel was always there of course but it really worsened under George W Bush. Trump supports all Israeli positions 100 %, which is something the US has never done before (but his is an unprecedented presidency in so many ways I suppose).

I wonder how far the green light/cover for Israel from the US extends now (will it run to turning the blind eye to some sort of Xinjiang or Yugoslavia solution to Palestinian "surplus population" in the next decade under Trump or the next Republican?).

Gretas Gonna Get Ya!

notobtuse wrote: »

The plan provides the Palestinians an opportunity to achieve their own state and live in peace. And in several years, if they denounce terrorism, they can push for more concessions and come away with a better deal. Bottom line... Israel is here to stay. But with the Palestinian leader’s comments over the deal they are only making it less likely that they’ll ever achieve statehood... or ever prosper.

Absolutely agree!

Israel holds the stronger cards in any deal that gets brokered... that's just the way it is. They have the backing of a major superpower.

People denouncing Israel, and calling them this that and the other, is frankly a bit pointless. Even if these accusations were true (which many are not btw), it's completely useless and does not add anything worthwhile to the debate.

The Palestinian leadership need to do what is right for their people... they need to work with Israel and the US, and get the best deal that is realistically achievable... digging their heels in will only prolong the suffering of their people. And that, for me at least, is poor leadership!

They're never going to get all of what they want in any deal... but this deal can give them a lot of what they need. Or at least has the potential to do so, if implemented well.

Edgware

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »

Absolutely agree!

Israel holds the stronger cards in any deal that gets brokered... that's just the way it is. They have the backing of a major superpower.

People denouncing Israel, and calling them this that and the other, is frankly a bit pointless. Even if these accusations were true (which many are not btw), it's completely useless and does not add anything worthwhile to the debate.

The Palestinian leadership need to do what is right for their people... they need to work with Israel and the US, and get the best deal that is realistically achievable... digging their heels in will only prolong the suffering of their people. And that, for me at least, is poor leadership!

They're never going to get all of what they want in any deal... but this deal can give them a lot of what they need. Or at least has the potential to do so, if implemented well.

As long as Palestinian leaders persist in the belief that they can defeat Israel the conflict will continue. Wishful thinking is no good.

biko

statesaver wrote: »

They want to eliminate each other and it looks like Israel will win comfortably.

Imagine you took all the weapons from the Palestinians for a week, what would happen?

Imagine you took all the weapons from the Israelis for a week, what would happen?

biko

On topic, Trump is just another US president with a peace plan.
I think every single one since Carter have been at it - no-one has succeeded.

Skylinehead

biko wrote: »

On topic, Trump is just another US president with a peace plan.
I think every single one since Carter have been at it - no-one has succeeded.

Well, at least some of them were vaguely serious about it!

James Brown

fly_agaric wrote: »

The US partisanship towards Israel was always there of course but it really worsened under George W Bush. Trump supports all Israeli positions 100 %, which is something the US has never done before (but his is an unprecedented presidency in so many ways I suppose).

I wonder how far the green light/cover for Israel from the US extends now (will it run to turning the blind eye to some sort of Xinjiang or Yugoslavia solution to Palestinian "surplus population" in the next decade under Trump or the next Republican?).

Its slowly happening now. This announcement was the sign Israel is going to ramp things up. They can try say they pushed for peace but nobody wanted it so any actions will be justified for them.

biko

A big problem seems to be Jerusalem, a holy Jewish and Christian city mentioned many times in their holy texts, but isn't even mentioned once in the Quran.

Trump give PLO eastern Jerusalem but they seem to reject that.