Trump: Middle East peace plan announced

Skylinehead · 30-01-2020 2:12pm

biko wrote: »

A big problem seems to be Jerusalem, a holy Jewish and Christian city mentioned many times in their holy texts, but isn't even mentioned once in the Quran.

Even cursory research shows your claim to be untrue.

biko · 30-01-2020 2:19pm

Skylinehead wrote: »

Even cursory research shows your claim to be untrue.

You forgot your link/source.

rapul · 30-01-2020 2:44pm

biko wrote: »

You forgot your link/source.

Where's yours

biko · 30-01-2020 3:04pm

I don't need one, it's common knowledge

However, since you asked
Go to google.com
Type in "is jerusalem mentioned in the quran"
See answers

There is a feeble attempt by some to mean that when Mohammed dreamt of Al-Aqsa Mosque, then he dreamt of Jerusalem.
This is just a hypothesis.

SaintLeibowitz · 30-01-2020 3:11pm

biko wrote: »

I don't need one, it's common knowledge

However, since you asked
Go to google.com
Type in "is jerusalem mentioned in the quran"
See answers

There is a feeble attempt by some to mean that when Mohammed dreamt of Al-Aqsa Mosque, then he dreamt of Jerusalem.
This is just a hypothesis.

If it was common knowledge that Jerusalem is not mentioned in the Koran. Why did you have to Google it yourself. Why couldn't you expand on your incorrect email statement yourself?

Varik · 30-01-2020 3:14pm

SaintLeibowitz wrote: »

If it was common knowledge that Jerusalem is not mentioned in the Koran. Why did you have to Google it yourself. Why couldn't you expand on your incorrect email statement yourself?

Would say it's pretty common.

Jerusalem isn't mentioned in it and Jesus is mentioned more than muhammad.

biko · 30-01-2020 3:17pm

SaintLeibowitz wrote: »

If it was common knowledge that Jerusalem is not mentioned in the Koran. Why did you have to Google it yourself. Why couldn't you expand on your incorrect email statement yourself?

I already knew but "googled it" for you guys.
"email statement"? Whut?

Is anyone going to contradict me on this?
I hope Skylinehead has something as he seems to have researched it.

SaintLeibowitz · 30-01-2020 3:17pm

Varik wrote: »

Would say it's pretty common.

Jerusalem isn't mentioned in it and Jesus is mentioned more than muhammad.

Biko said it was common knowledge. Of course bikos statement that Jerusalem isn't mentioned in the Koran doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

CrankyHaus · 30-01-2020 3:20pm

So is it mentioned or isn't it?
As someone with no dog in the fight it would be nice to learn more from a page of back and forths than "google it".

SaintLeibowitz · 30-01-2020 3:20pm

biko wrote: »

I already knew but "googled it" for you guys.
"email statement"? Whut?

Is anyone going to contradict me on this?
I hope Skylinehead has something as he seems to have researched it.

You googled it yourself for yourself. Your attempt at humour failed.

Why did you say it was common knowledge? If you had to Google the information for yourself?

It was supposed to say 'incorrect statement'

biko · 30-01-2020 3:23pm

So, no real answers yet?

Anyway, why would I google something like "is Jerusalem mention in the quran"? It doesn't make sense unless I already knew it.
This discussion is turning kinda bizarre.

James Brown · 30-01-2020 3:25pm

Lads going back to the crusades the Christians and Muslims fought over Jerusalem. The Israeli state was created on Palestinian lands and continues to expand annexing that land and treating the Palestinians like a scourge to be removed. That's the problem.

Varik · 30-01-2020 3:43pm

SaintLeibowitz wrote: »

Biko said it was common knowledge. Of course bikos statement that Jerusalem isn't mentioned in the Koran doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

What scrutiny exactly, should be the easiest thing to prove if it is metioned.

Sonics2k · 30-01-2020 3:48pm

biko wrote: »

So, no real answers yet?

Anyway, why would I google something like "is Jerusalem mention in the quran"? It doesn't make sense unless I already knew it.
This discussion is turning kinda bizarre.

Hold up a moment. Are you really saying that Israel has the right to claim the lands because they're Holy book mentions Jerusalem?

victor8600 · 30-01-2020 3:54pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

...The Israeli state was created on Palestinian lands....

Erm, who are these Palestinians on whose lands the Israeli state was created? Do you mean Ottomans, who owned the land before 1917? Or Britain who owned the lands after that?

James Brown · 30-01-2020 3:59pm

victor8600 wrote: »

Erm, who are these Palestinians on whose lands the Israeli state was created? Do you mean Ottomans, who owned the land before 1917? Or Britain who owned the lands after that?

No the Palestinians. You've never heard of them? The British 'own' northern Ireland, but would you claim to have no knowledge of the Irish being there and having a claim?

biko · 30-01-2020 4:01pm

Sonics2k wrote: »

Hold up a moment. Are you really saying that Israel has the right to claim the lands because they're Holy book mentions Jerusalem?

The Quran is saying it.
http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=5&verse=20
http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(5:21:6)
The Quran states: “Moses said to his people: O my people! Remember the bounty of God upon you when He bestowed prophets upon you, and made you kings and gave you that which had not been given to anyone before you amongst the nations. O my people! Enter the Holy Land which God has written for you, and do not turn tail, otherwise you will be losers.”

Nowhere does the Quran make mention of the Muslims’ claim to the Holy Land.
Instead, God reveals in the Quran that The Holy Land is designated for the followers of Moses.

ERLUAD · 30-01-2020 4:03pm

Just google " is Jerusalem mentioned in the Torah" and it isnt, not one word

James Brown · 30-01-2020 4:08pm

biko wrote: »

The Quran is saying it.
http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=5&verse=20
http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(5:21:6)
The Quran states: “Moses said to his people: O my people! Remember the bounty of God upon you when He bestowed prophets upon you, and made you kings and gave you that which had not been given to anyone before you amongst the nations. O my people! Enter the Holy Land which God has written for you, and do not turn tail, otherwise you will be losers.”

Nowhere does the Quran make mention of the Muslims’ claim to the Holy Land.
Instead, God reveals in the Quran that The Holy Land is designated for the followers of Moses.

Moses is revered as a prominent prophet and messenger in Islam, his narrative is recounted the most among the prophets in the Qur'an. He is regarded by Muslims of as one of the six most prominent prophets in Islam along with Jesus (Isa), Abraham (Ibrahim), Noah (Nuh), Adam (Adam) and Muhammad.

Sorted so. They also view King David as a prophet. Not really a certified land document these religious texts.
'Muslims' means (Submitters to God), King David was as much a Muslim as Mohammed.

I've a suspicion that even if the Palestinians were Jewish they'd have been treated the same.

biko · 30-01-2020 4:10pm

The holy book for jews are the Tanakh, where it's mentioned hundreds of times.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism#Jewish_religious_texts

osarusan · 30-01-2020 4:12pm

I don't really see the relevance of that whole line of argument tbh.

Regardless of what the different holy books say, different groups have been living there, fighting and dying there, and claiming it as their own, for many many centuries.

biko · 30-01-2020 4:13pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

King David was as much a Muslim as Mohammed.

Muslims and Islam would not exist for over a thousand years when King David lived.

James Brown · 30-01-2020 4:14pm

osarusan wrote: »

I don't really see the relevance of that whole line of argument tbh.

Regardless of what the different holy books say, different groups have been living there, fighting and dying there, and claiming it as their own, for many many centuries.

Except the Israelis.

James Brown · 30-01-2020 4:14pm

biko wrote: »

Muslims and Islam would not exist for over a thousand years when King David lived.

Muslim means submitter to God, hence King David was as Muslim as Mohammed. It was the term used. It's in my comment.

biko · 30-01-2020 4:20pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Muslim means submitter to God, hence King David was as Muslim as Mohammed. It was the term used. It's in my comment.

I don't know, now you're just claiming Jews/Christians/Hindus are somehow Muslims if they "submit" to any god.

If I submit to Vishnu, am I then Muslim according to you?

biko · 30-01-2020 4:23pm

osarusan wrote: »

I don't really see the relevance of that whole line of argument tbh.

Regardless of what the different holy books say, different groups have been living there, fighting and dying there, and claiming it as their own, for many many centuries.

Exactly. There is a point of claiming historical rights but as I have shown using holy texts won't do it.

Other civilisations have claimed/occupied the land. Most notably the Romans.
You don't see the Italians getting mixed in

victor8600 · 30-01-2020 4:30pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

No the Palestinians. You've never heard of them? The British 'own' northern Ireland, but would you claim to have no knowledge of the Irish being there and having a claim?

Not the same, and you would know it if you knew Irish history.

Palestinians have the misfortune to be people nobody wants. They are homeless Arabs, victims of the Arab-Israeli conflict.

Calling them "Palestinians" is like calling Navajo people "Arizonians" because their reservations are mostly in Arizona.

Skylinehead · 30-01-2020 4:41pm

biko wrote: »

You forgot your link/source.

Oh lord the hypocrisy. "Common knowledge" is not an out.

Anyway, here's a well sourced answer.

https://islam.stackexchange.com/questions/39207/jerusalem-in-the-quran

Obviously Jerusalem is not mentioned by that name, as it wouldn't be. However, it's clearly referenced, and in any case is the third most important holy city in Islam.

All of this is irrelevant of course. It's a hugely important religious site for all three Abrahamic religions, so access should be maintained for all.

James Brown · 30-01-2020 5:13pm

biko wrote: »

I don't know, now you're just claiming Jews/Christians/Hindus are somehow Muslims if they "submit" to any god.

If I submit to Vishnu, am I then Muslim according to you?

Muslim was the term for anyone religious. King David, Mohammed, Moses were one in the same in the eyes of the religious. You cited the Koran as saying the holy land belongs to Moses' people/followers. What we know today as Muslim/Jewish, would consider themselves Moses' people.
I'm pointing that out. Not that it matter IMO.

James Brown · 30-01-2020 5:15pm

victor8600 wrote: »

Not the same, and you would know it if you knew Irish history.

Palestinians have the misfortune to be people nobody wants. They are homeless Arabs, victims of the Arab-Israeli conflict.

Calling them "Palestinians" is like calling Navajo people "Arizonians" because their reservations are mostly in Arizona.

They are home in Palestine. No amount of western view in favour of the manufactured Israeli state can change that. Nor does it excuse the criminal inhumane behaviour of the Israeli rogue state upon the Palestinian people.
I'm always amused that the pro Israeli lobby claim Palestine and Palestinians are a fiction, considering Israel and it's claims.

Trump: Middle East peace plan announced

Comments