Trump: Middle East peace plan announced

Gretas Gonna Get Ya!

end of the road wrote: »

israel wants all of the land in the area, and possibly more. until america forces them to actually stay within their borders nothing will change, and that is the borders as set out by the UN and international law.

Things can change, when the Palestinian leadership shows that their primary goal is getting their people out of the horrible situation they're currently mired in...

They have the power to help their own people, and give them a better future... but it won't happen unless they are prepared back down and accept a less than perfect deal...

They have no choice... Ultimately Israel holds the better cards, they have stronger support for their cause than the Palestinians!

there are no such conditions.
the state of israel is not at risk of destruction, especially by ending land theft, colonisation, and all other breaches of international and human rights law it engages in.

The state of Israel will probably always be at risk... they are surrounded by hostile neighbours, who do not want them to exist.

only when it comes to the actual law, whether domestic or international.
any land occupied by israel outside it's borders, is not generally internationally recognised as belonging to israel, so therefore i would suggest that possession is 9 tenths of the law does not apply.

Who is going to forcibly remove 1,000's of Israeli families from their homes, women, children... old folks?

It's not going to happen... and the Israelis know this... the more they can build up and establish these settlements, and the longer they can keep them there.... it's very unlikely they will ever be moved on in the future.

It's a bit like squatters rights. No matter how illegitimately you think someone attained property... if enough time passes, it becomes very difficult to remove people from that property!

end of the road

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »

Things can change, when the Palestinian leadership shows that their primary goal is getting their people out of the horrible situation they're currently mired in...

They have the power to help their own people, and give them a better future... but it won't happen unless they are prepared back down and accept a less than perfect deal...

They have no choice... Ultimately Israel holds the better cards, they have stronger support for their cause than the Palestinians!



The state of Israel will probably always be at risk... they are surrounded by hostile neighbours, who do not want them to exist.



Who is going to forcibly remove 1,000's of Israeli families from their homes, women, children... old folks?

It's not going to happen... and the Israelis know this... the more they can build up and establish these settlements, and the longer they can keep them there.... it's very unlikely they will ever be moved on in the future.

It's a bit like squatters rights. No matter how illegitimately you think someone attained property... if enough time passes, it becomes very difficult to remove people from that property!

the behaviour of israel does not back any of this up.
israel will not stick to any deal unless they somehow end up with a pragmatic leader who will get the support of the people, which is unlikely.
a back down by the palestinians will absolutely lead to them being cleansed.
the israely government if they had any sense would absolutely remove hundreds of thousands of people from someone else's home, just like they did in gaza. it is perfectly fine to remove people from land that they are illegally occupying, we and other western countries do it all the time. the fact they won't do it and will continue to build more is just slowly but surely removing sympathy for their cause, and america wil also eventually wake up. if we can wake up to apartheid south africa we can wake up to israel.
squatters rights does not apply with israel occupying land illegally.
so yeah, bluster is all you have.

fly_agaric

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »

They have the power to help their own people, and give them a better future.

Let's be honest here, they don't. From my reading of the news the last few days, Trump's "peace plan" is a fairly concrete list of things Israel wants to do over the next few years combined with nebulous brain farts about "Palestine" and temporarily handling the awkward interlopers living there.
Assuming Trump is in the White house, it's happening whether the Palestinians give their blessing or not. The US has given the nod, that's all that matters. The Palestinian situation is (IMO) fairly hopeless at this point.

James Brown

An invading force is telling them what they plan to do by way of a peace deal, they weren't included in creating, and they should sign up because the Israeli's are going to do it anyway?
If it's going to happen anyway, why give a sense of legitimacy to this Final Solution?

MakingMovies2

The Arab states should all band together and wipe Israel off the map. It's a disgusting apartheid state propped up by that swine in the white house. The EU and UN should refuse to do business and make it a pariah state on the Same level as North Korea. The Egyptian, Jordanian, Lebanese and Syrian armies would beat them without the Americans intervening. What we're seeing in Palestine is an ethnic cleansing. Plain and simple

James Brown

MakingMovies2 wrote: »

The Arab states should all band together and wipe Israel off the map. It's a disgusting apartheid state propped up by that swine in the white house. The EU and UN should refuse to do business and make it a pariah state on the Same level as North Korea. The Egyptian, Jordanian, Lebanese and Syrian armies would beat them without the Americans intervening. What we're seeing in Palestine is an ethnic cleansing. Plain and simple

I disagree. They are there now and people are people, despite their government.
I would suggest in the least withdrawing to their initial borders and at least share Jerusalem, with Tel Aviv the Israeli capital.
It is disgusting how many of the surrounding states will follow the money.
It is ethnic cleansing, agreed.

Edgware

MakingMovies2 wrote: »

The Arab states should all band together and wipe Israel off the map. It's a disgusting apartheid state propped up by that swine in the white house. The EU and UN should refuse to do business and make it a pariah state on the Same level as North Korea. The Egyptian, Jordanian, Lebanese and Syrian armies would beat them without the Americans intervening. What we're seeing in Palestine is an ethnic cleansing. Plain and simple

Ya. All those middle east states are such upholders of democracy and human rights.
You haven't a clue

MakingMovies2

Edgware wrote: »

Ya. All those middle east states are such upholders of democracy and human rights.
You haven't a clue

So how many countries have Egypt and Lebanon occupied unjustly and basically formed an apartheid state where people are kept in a state of perpetual war and poverty? Answer me that and don't deflect.

Edgware

MakingMovies2 wrote: »

So how many countries have Egypt and Lebanon occupied unjustly and basically formed an apartheid state where people are kept in a state of perpetual war and poverty? Answer me that and don't deflect.

None. They are too busy keeping their own people in a state of perpetual war and poverty.
I am presuming you can point out Israel on a map

fly_agaric

MakingMovies2 wrote: »

The Arab states should all band together and wipe Israel off the map. It's a disgusting apartheid state propped up by that swine in the white house. The EU and UN should refuse to do business and make it a pariah state on the Same level as North Korea. The Egyptian, Jordanian, Lebanese and Syrian armies would beat them without the Americans intervening. What we're seeing in Palestine is an ethnic cleansing. Plain and simple

No, Israel exists now, and has a right to exist.
You would hope in future its people + their descendents will get to live in peace some day with all their neighbours. Unfortunately the policies they are following (enabled by the US) ensure there will be alot more death & misery to come.
The kind of "peace" they are aiming towards with the Palestinians is the sort you get after you've pushed out or destroyed the "enemy" (i.e. the historical example of the natives in North America or the UKs "plantations" here).

MakingMovies2

Edgware wrote: »

None. They are too busy keeping their own people in a state of perpetual war and poverty.
I am presuming you can point out Israel on a map

I can thank you very much. I'm sure I can find your swollen head on the map too.

MakingMovies2

fly_agaric wrote: »

No, Israel exists now, and has a right to exist.
You would hope in future its people + their descendents will get to live in peace some day with all their neighbours. Unfortunately the policies they are following (enabled by the US) ensure there will be alot more death & misery to come.
The kind of "peace" they are aiming towards with the Palestinians is the sort you get after you've pushed out or destroyed the "enemy" (i.e. the historical example of the natives in North America or the UKs "plantations" here).

It's not peace they want. It's domination and subjugation.

Odhinn

Edgware wrote: »

Ya. All those middle east states are such upholders of democracy and human rights.
You haven't a clue

Your point..........?

silverharp

fly_agaric wrote: »

No, Israel exists now, and has a right to exist.
You would hope in future its people + their descendents will get to live in peace some day with all their neighbours. Unfortunately the policies they are following (enabled by the US) ensure there will be alot more death & misery to come.
The kind of "peace" they are aiming towards with the Palestinians is the sort you get after you've pushed out or destroyed the "enemy" (i.e. the historical example of the natives in North America or the UKs "plantations" here).

if there is a Palestinian state your analogies don't stand up

fly_agaric

silverharp wrote: »

if there is a Palestinian state your analogies don't stand up

Could you explain that for me more clearly?

Odhinn

The "peace" plan will make the occupation even closer in style to Apartheid South Africa than hitherto. Palestinian "bantustans" - powerless, isolated areas - acting as a source of cheap labour for the settler population.


https://www.btselem.org/press_releases/20200128_btselem_on_president_trumps_plan

James Brown

The Arab league has refused to support the Kushner/BiBi final solution. Great news.

MakingMovies2

Matt Barrett wrote: »

The Arab league has refused to support the Kushner/BiBi final solution. Great news.

Brilliant. This whole redrawing borders and forced migration is something that Stalin would blush at. But don't worry Gaza and the West Bank would get a tunnel. Piss take.

Odhinn

victor8600 wrote: »

You are right. So what should we do? I'll tell you. We should vote for the European Army. We should give money and soldiers to the UN and remove veto powers from the US and Russia. Any country that violates UN resolutions should feel the wrath of the United Nations.

Sounds realistic? Probably more than the possibility of peace in the Middle East, but not by much, innit?

Everything else is as helpful as "Thoughts and Prayers".

No, there is one thing that scares the crap out of them. BDS
https://bdsmovement.net/

James Brown

Odhinn wrote: »

No, there is one thing that scares the crap out of them. BDS
https://bdsmovement.net/

Worked on South Africa.

silverharp

fly_agaric wrote: »

Could you explain that for me more clearly?

Per your analogy there isn't a native American state and I don't think the Palestinians are being offered reservation status

jmayo

MakingMovies2 wrote: »

The Arab states should all band together and wipe Israel off the map. It's a disgusting apartheid state propped up by that swine in the white house. The EU and UN should refuse to do business and make it a pariah state on the Same level as North Korea. The Egyptian, Jordanian, Lebanese and Syrian armies would beat them without the Americans intervening. What we're seeing in Palestine is an ethnic cleansing. Plain and simple

The very last word in your post singularly summarises all that goes before it. :rolleyes:

Look up a history book before you start pontificating about the armies of Arab states beating Israel.
Oh and maybe catch up a bit on current affairs to see the current state of Lebanese and Syrian forces.

MakingMovies2

jmayo wrote: »

The very last word in your post singularly summarises all that goes before it. :rolleyes:

Look up a history book before you start pontificating about the armies of Arab states beating Israel.
Oh and maybe catch up a bit on current affairs to see the current state of Lebanese and Syrian forces.

Do you regularly defend racism or is it a casual hobby? I'm well read on the situation in Israel and it disgusts me.

Odhinn

jmayo wrote: »

The very last word in your post singularly summarises all that goes before it. :rolleyes:

Look up a history book before you start pontificating about the armies of Arab states beating Israel.
Oh and maybe catch up a bit on current affairs to see the current state of Lebanese and Syrian forces.

Regardless of all that, what think ye of Israeli policy re the occupied Territories.

jmayo

MakingMovies2 wrote: »

Do you regularly defend racism or is it a casual hobby? I'm well read on the situation in Israel and it disgusts me.

Ah yes the stock answer of the modern right on folks.

Racist, racist, RACIST.

FFS do people like you ever tire of that trite shyte.

Your entire post was simplistic and shows you know shag all about how Israel's Arab neighbours have tried numerous times to drive them into the sea and have fallen flat on their ar**es each time.

And no it wasn't simply down to the US backing or perhaps you never knew that the other sides had Soviet backing and sometimes actually more modern equipment.
Oh and in the Suez crisis the US (and UN) forced Israel to retreat.
And it was the US that secured a ceasefire in Yom Kippur war.

After 6 day war the Israels had captured the Sinai, West Bank, Golan Heights. They had wiped the floor with the forces of 4 other countries.

Lebanon for decades and laterally Syria have enough internal problems before they dare even look towards Israel.

But yet you reckon they could help drive Israel into the sea.

And isn't that kinda racist?
You know wanting to see a nation, primarily made up of a specific relegious group, wiped out.

Odhinn wrote: »

Regardless of all that, what think ye of Israeli policy re the occupied Territories.

I think they should never have allowed settlers into West Bank.
I think it was a land grab and worse still it was usually the most right wing orthodox migrant Jews that were the ones encouraged in.
They then start flashpoints with the Palestinians, but because a lot of them are orthodox it aint their kids doing the national service who have to face the repercussions.
That has been a bit of sore point with more secular Jews in Israel.

I think Israel has a right to exist and I think they have a right to build any wall they want on their border for their own protection, but they need to allow a workable Palestinian state.
It is the only long term solution.
Saying that the Palestinians also need to step up and realise their armed struggle is doomed and they aint going to get back their old lands.

I admire what Israel has achieved since it's independence.
They are a true technology marvel unlike us, they are one of the world's leaders in many fields and not just defense related tech.

It is probably the only state in the region that has a semblance of true democracy.

The Arab states have been run by despots, money grabbing families often along tribal and religious grounds.
Even when the people do get some form of freedom the religious nutjobs move in to try turn the places back centuries.

Yes the Western powers and USSR/Russia have interfered, but like with much of Africa the locals just seem to disintegrate into petty conflicts given the first chance they get.
I guess some see it as a chance to get even for the excesses of the other side.

James Brown

jmayo wrote: »

Ah yes the stock answer of the modern right on folks.

Racist, racist, RACIST.

FFS do people like you ever tire of that trite shyte.

Your entire post was simplistic and shows you know shag all about how Israel's Arab neighbours have tried numerous times to drive them into the sea and have fallen flat on their ar**es each time.

And no it wasn't simply down to the US backing or perhaps you never knew that the other sides had Soviet backing and sometimes actually more modern equipment.
Oh and in the Suez crisis the US (and UN) forced Israel to retreat.
And it was the US that secured a ceasefire in Yom Kippur war.

After 6 day war the Israels had captured the Sinai, West Bank, Golan Heights. They had wiped the floor with the forces of 4 other countries.

Lebanon for decades and laterally Syria have enough internal problems before they dare even look towards Israel.

But yet you reckon they could help drive Israel into the sea.

And isn't that kinda racist?
You know wanting to see a nation, primarily made up of a specific relegious group, wiped out.



I think they should never have allowed settlers into West Bank.
I think it was a land grab and worse still it was usually the most right wing orthodox migrant Jews that were the ones encouraged in.
They then start flashpoints with the Palestinians, but because a lot of them are orthodox it aint their kids doing the national service who have to face the repercussions.
That has been a bit of sore point with more secular Jews in Israel.

I think Israel has a right to exist and I think they have a right to build any wall they want on their border for their own protection, but they need to allow a workable Palestinian state.
It is the only long term solution.
Saying that the Palestinians also need to step up and realise their armed struggle is doomed and they aint going to get back their old lands.

I admire what Israel has achieved since it's independence.
They are a true technology marvel unlike us, they are one of the world's leaders in many fields and not just defense related tech.

It is probably the only state in the region that has a semblance of true democracy.

The Arab states have been run by despots, money grabbing families often along tribal and religious grounds.
Even when the people do get some form of freedom the religious nutjobs move in to try turn the places back centuries.

Yes the Western powers and USSR/Russia have interfered, but like with much of Africa the locals just seem to disintegrate into petty conflicts given the first chance they get.
I guess some see it as a chance to get even for the excesses of the other side.

So that's a 'yes' on the racism?

Odhinn

jmayo wrote: »

Ah yes the stock answer of the modern right on folks.

Racist, racist, RACIST.

FFS do people like you ever tire of that trite shyte.

Your entire post was simplistic and shows you know shag all about how Israel's Arab neighbours have tried numerous times to drive them into the sea and have fallen flat on their ar**es each time.

And no it wasn't simply down to the US backing or perhaps you never knew that the other sides had Soviet backing and sometimes actually more modern equipment.
Oh and in the Suez crisis the US (and UN) forced Israel to retreat.
And it was the US that secured a ceasefire in Yom Kippur war.

After 6 day war the Israels had captured the Sinai, West Bank, Golan Heights. They had wiped the floor with the forces of 4 other countries.

Lebanon for decades and laterally Syria have enough internal problems before they dare even look towards Israel.

But yet you reckon they could help drive Israel into the sea.

And isn't that kinda racist?
You know wanting to see a nation, primarily made up of a specific relegious group, wiped out.



I think they should never have allowed settlers into West Bank.
I think it was a land grab and worse still it was usually the most right wing orthodox migrant Jews that were the ones encouraged in.
They then start flashpoints with the Palestinians, but because a lot of them are orthodox it aint their kids doing the national service who have to face the repercussions.
That has been a bit of sore point with more secular Jews in Israel.

I think Israel has a right to exist and I think they have a right to build any wall they want on their border for their own protection, but they need to allow a workable Palestinian state.
It is the only long term solution.
Saying that the Palestinians also need to step up and realise their armed struggle is doomed and they aint going to get back their old lands.

I admire what Israel has achieved since it's independence.
They are a true technology marvel unlike us, they are one of the world's leaders in many fields and not just defense related tech.

It is probably the only state in the region that has a semblance of true democracy.

The Arab states have been run by despots, money grabbing families often along tribal and religious grounds.
Even when the people do get some form of freedom the religious nutjobs move in to try turn the places back centuries.

Yes the Western powers and USSR/Russia have interfered, but like with much of Africa the locals just seem to disintegrate into petty conflicts given the first chance they get.
I guess some see it as a chance to get even for the excesses of the other side.

You can't keep an entire population of millions under military rule for 4 or 5 decades and then go 'o we're a democracy'.

jmayo

Matt Barrett wrote: »

So that's a 'yes' on the racism?

So admiring what Israel has achieved in terms of turning a desert into productive farmland, building modern cities, building universities creating an educated workforce, building world leading multinationals in various spheres of science and engineering is not something to admire.

Oh yes and all whilst having to be battle ready to fight off their neighbours who have often vowed to wipe them out.


And yes it is the only state with a semblance of democracy or maybe you thought that Assad or Sadam actually did get 90% of the votes and Morsi was a grand lad altogether who wanted to have a nice secular constitution a few years after his right wing Muslim Brotherhood one. :rolleyes:

James Brown

jmayo wrote: »

So admiring what Israel has achieved in terms of turning a desert into productive farmland, building modern cities, building universities creating an educated workforce, building world leading multinationals in various spheres of science and engineering is not something to admire.

Oh yes and all whilst having to be battle ready to fight off their neighbours who have often vowed to wipe them out.


And yes it is the only state with a semblance of democracy or maybe you thought that Assad or Sadam actually did get 90% of the votes and Morsi was a grand lad altogether who wanted to have a nice secular constitution a few years after his right wing Muslim Brotherhood one. :rolleyes:

Ah, you should have specified you were not including the institutional racism, murder and theft. Fair enough.
By neighbours you mean people they butcher, steal from and oppress.
Ah, a little bit of a kind of democracy, okey doke.
Yep, Israel is open to all religions making policy

Odhinn

jmayo wrote: »

So admiring what Israel has achieved in terms of turning a desert into productive farmland,

By 1946 the majority of exports from Palestine were from privately held Palestinian land. The "nothing was here before us" is a colonial trope that comes up in similar situations world wide.

jmayo wrote: »

And yes it is the only state with a semblance of democracy or maybe you thought that Assad or Sadam actually did get 90% of the votes and Morsi was a grand lad altogether who wanted to have a nice secular constitution a few years after his right wing Muslim Brotherhood one. :rolleyes:

This is nonsense. They control the lives of millions of Palestinians who have no say in how they are governed. Land is regularily seized by the IDF, farms destroyed by settlers who operate with impunity from the "law". Israel doesn't even give the Palestinians the protection of the Geneva conventions.