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Buying off plans - what to expect?
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29-01-2020 12:01am#1Hi all,
If this is in the wrong section mods please feel free to move.
Hoping somebody here might be able to answer some questions, have had a search but can find exactly the answers I'm looking for.
We are first time buyers, who have just gotten approval in principle. We have put a booking deposit on a new build house that is currently at foundation levels in a small cul de sac where all the houses will be of a similar size and layout.
The questions I have is the price is currently set at X but we want to add a few extra bits and want all of these bits included in the final purchase price. Builder has agreed verbally but when agent sent details to our solicitor X price was listed and we have not heard anything about the extras. Can we delay contracts until everything is included?
Also the price is including a turn key finish, does this mean we get no say in the final choices for kitchen colours, tiles, paint etc? Or if we do get choices how does this work when we will have gotten a letter of offer for our mortgage in order to sign contracts to buy long before this? Can we go back to the bank to change the the amount we are looking to borrow before closing?
Apologies if these questions are silly and for the length of post. It's all a bit overwhelming but exiting also.0
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It really depends on the builder. Your solicitor will advise on the best course of action.
I suspect if they are substantial alterations to the standard spec they would need to be in the contract.0 -
It really depends on the builder. Your solicitor will advise on the best course of action.
I suspect if they are substantial alterations to the standard spec they would need to be in the contract.
Appreciate the reply. We are meeting the builder at the weekend so will hopefully get some clarity then. What we want to do is get a wall built at the front of the house to be included as part of the process. Any thing else we are thinking are more room specific internally and we hope they are not major things to get included.0 -
Appreciate the reply. We are meeting the builder at the weekend so will hopefully get some clarity then. What we want to do is get a wall built at the front of the house to be included as part of the process. Any thing else we are thinking are more room specific internally and we hope they are not major things to get included.
Totally depends on the builder and developer. We bought a new build and moved in in December. We were not allowed make a single change. Even offered to pay to have extra sockets etc but was no good. I’ve heard of some though that will allow small changes, but generally that’s it.0 -
Natashaw88x wrote: »Totally depends on the builder and developer. We bought a new build and moved in in December. We were not allowed make a single change. Even offered to pay to have extra sockets etc but was no good. I’ve heard of some though that will allow small changes, but generally that’s it.
Seems a bit it unfair really when you are the one going to be living in the house and can pay to get those things done following completion anyway? I would have thought sockets etc would be fairly simple to add. Perhaps our requests might be too big so. Will find out tomorrow!0 -
Seems a bit it unfair really when you are the one going to be living in the house and can pay to get those things done following completion anyway? I would have thought sockets etc would be fairly simple to add. Perhaps our requests might be too big so. Will find out tomorrow!
Turn key finish usually means that walls are magnolia and tiles are similar to show house or as spec advertised. If you are visiting the house during construction you can ask the spark to put the sockets where you want them, you might slip them a bit of cash to put extras in. Try and visualise where flat screen TVs are to be hung so that you can put sockets/aerial points and most importantly, if you can, Cat5 sockets. Sky is all WiFi based now so think where your router is going to be so that you have WiFi everywhere. Cat5 points are great because if you give the Sky installer a few quid, he will hard wire the Q boxes to your router.0 -
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Seems a bit it unfair really when you are the one going to be living in the house and can pay to get those things done following completion anyway? I would have thought sockets etc would be fairly simple to add. Perhaps our requests might be too big so. Will find out tomorrow!
Yep, some just don’t deviate away from the standard spec. We bought from Gannon Homes which is a fairly big developer, and they were having none of it! Hopefully you get somewhere with it!0 -
Natashaw88x wrote: »Yep, some just don’t deviate away from the standard spec. We bought from Gannon Homes which is a fairly big developer, and they were having none of it! Hopefully you get somewhere with it!
Yes depends on builder. I’ve heard Gannon have no scope for movement from friends who have bought in the Kinsale Manor in Cork. Not even able to choose paint colour on walls.
Some builders are amazing then - when we look at new build, builder had said if we have signed contracts when build starts we can make whatever changes we want ie change the beams in the roof so it can be converted in future, make one bedroom smaller to make a walk in wardrobe, decide if we want a door between kitchen and leaving room. Basically whatever deviations we wanted but just had to pay for them.
I find smaller builders are more flexible. Maybe because they don’t have as many sites going on.
I would highly recommend if you can afford it, have your engineer go out and have a look as true builder goes up. We didn’t buy the house as Location didn’t suit in end. But we had gone about going sale agreed as it was going up. Had a engineer go on site and he had said they had just done the sound proofing and he said it was very well done and it was a nice comfort.
Your not bound by a signed loan offer until money is drawn down so you can change banks whenever you want or the amount. If it’s a year down the line you may have saved more so require a smaller mortgage.0 -
Turn key finish usually means that walls are magnolia and tiles are similar to show house or as spec advertised. If you are visiting the house during construction you can ask the spark to put the sockets where you want them, you might slip them a bit of cash to put extras in. Try and visualise where flat screen TVs are to be hung so that you can put sockets/aerial points and most importantly, if you can, Cat5 sockets. Sky is all WiFi based now so think where your router is going to be so that you have WiFi everywhere. Cat5 points are great because if you give the Sky installer a few quid, he will hard wire the Q boxes to your router.
Ya I wouldn't be expecting anything too flash colour wise which is fine really, but there is no show house, it's a small cul de sac and houses that are already completed are occupied, so not sure what to expect really. Have read alright that cat5 points are important, but good point in regards picturing where things might go and try to get sockets strategically placed. Appreciate the tips.0 -
Natashaw88x wrote: »Yep, some just don’t deviate away from the standard spec. We bought from Gannon Homes which is a fairly big developer, and they were having none of it! Hopefully you get somewhere with it!
Our builder is a smaller operator I think seems to be building in groups of twos and threes and everything built so far is occupied which I am hoping is a good sign.0 -
Yes depends on builder. I’ve heard Gannon have no scope for movement from friends who have bought in the Kinsale Manor in Cork. Not even able to choose paint colour on walls.
Some builders are amazing then - when we look at new build, builder had said if we have signed contracts when build starts we can make whatever changes we want ie change the beams in the roof so it can be converted in future, make one bedroom smaller to make a walk in wardrobe, decide if we want a door between kitchen and leaving room. Basically whatever deviations we wanted but just had to pay for them.
I find smaller builders are more flexible. Maybe because they don’t have as many sites going on.
I would highly recommend if you can afford it, have your engineer go out and have a look as true builder goes up. We didn’t buy the house as Location didn’t suit in end. But we had gone about going sale agreed as it was going up. Had a engineer go on site and he had said they had just done the sound proofing and he said it was very well done and it was a nice comfort.
Your not bound by a signed loan offer until money is drawn down so you can change banks whenever you want or the amount. If it’s a year down the line you may have saved more so require a smaller mortgage.
Having spoken briefly to the builder during the week they did say about getting contracts sorted so that customisations could be done if needed but that couldn't happen until contracts signed.
I suppose the fear would be is that at contracts signed point the price is X and by the time drawing down comes the price has gone to z and may put us under pressure for a while financially.
We will of course continue to save while waiting for the house to be completed.0 -
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Having spoken briefly to the builder during the week they did say about getting contracts sorted so that customisations could be done if needed but that couldn't happen until contracts signed.
I suppose the fear would be is that at contracts signed point the price is X and by the time drawing down comes the price has gone to z and may put us under pressure for a while financially.
We will of course continue to save while waiting for the house to be completed.
Builders would want you to sign contracts ASAP. Contacts will have the price and usually any PC sums. Any extras you put in are usually outside the contracts and you pay it as you go or will get a completion statement at the end with the amount owed. Contracts usually have a clause saying any extras you have to pay or will take off any of sums you don’t use at the end. Basically your loan offer is only concerned on the purchase price.
Just be aware if for some reason at the end you can’t buy the house ie you can’t get money from bank as financial circumstances have changed and relying on the subject to loan clause, you’ll get your deposit back. However you aren’t reimbursed for any extras you put in.0 -
Most large developers will not add a single extra due to the constraints of new age contracts with sub contractors, restrictions of BCAR and liability going forward.0
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Builders would want you to sign contracts ASAP. Contacts will have the price and usually any PC sums. Any extras you put in are usually outside the contracts and you pay it as you go or will get a completion statement at the end with the amount owed. Contracts usually have a clause saying any extras you have to pay or will take off any of sums you don’t use at the end. Basically your loan offer is only concerned on the purchase price.
Just be aware if for some reason at the end you can’t buy the house ie you can’t get money from bank as financial circumstances have changed and relying on the subject to loan clause, you’ll get your deposit back. However you aren’t reimbursed for any extras you put in.
Thank you, that really is the type of information that we needed. We were just very unsure of how it worked once contracts were signed, how any changes or extras were sorted out. Hopefully we can get everything we are hoping for included in the purchase price at contract stage and there won't be any surprises at completion. There is roughly 20k of pc sums is that generous or standard or low!?0 -
Most large developers will not add a single extra due to the constraints of new age contracts with sub contractors, restrictions of BCAR and liability going forward.
It's easy to understand when it's a larger volume of units I suppose, if everyone came looking for an extra this or a change to that it all adds up cost wise and can delay getting the units completed which will cost them money too.0 -
Thank you, that really is the type of information that we needed. We were just very unsure of how it worked once contracts were signed, how any changes or extras were sorted out. Hopefully we can get everything we are hoping for included in the purchase price at contract stage and there won't be any surprises at completion. There is roughly 20k of pc sums is that generous or standard or low!?
Depends what the PC sum has to cover.
I spent -11k on a kitchen.
10k on flooring.
Bathroom fittings extra.
What did you allow to be PC sum’d?0 -
Thank you, that really is the type of information that we needed. We were just very unsure of how it worked once contracts were signed, how any changes or extras were sorted out. Hopefully we can get everything we are hoping for included in the purchase price at contract stage and there won't be any surprises at completion. There is roughly 20k of pc sums is that generous or standard or low!?
Really depends on the size of the house and the breakdown. It can be broken down to tiling, kitchen and stove (though that can now be redundant with the new building regulations)
I found the pc sums can cover the basic. And most people put in extra. Two bathrooms covered in tiling but not the down stairs toilet. You’ll have the floor the house yourself. And that will be done afterwards once you have keys. For insurance reasons builder can’t let someone who doesn’t work for him on site.
Kitchen and wardrobes was also included but in reality this was going to be used towards the kitchen solely. If we wanted an island or inbuilt appliances the work on that was extra. It wouldn’t have covered the utility room either.
Dublin builds can have white goods included but I’ve not come across that in Cork.
If you decide you don’t like the kitchen provider for house and rather use a different kitchen provider, you can do that after you get keys. Builder can’t let them on site. But check with bank. Before, depending on the bank, they were strict on having a kitchen in for final valuation or would hold back funds until it was in. Think that’s eased off now but your bank advisor or solicitor will know.0 -
Depends what the PC sum has to cover.
I spent -11k on a kitchen.
10k on flooring.
Bathroom fittings extra.
What did you allow to be PC sum’d?
It's a 4 bed detached house and included in the pc sums are kitchen/utility, wardrobes, sanitary ware/shower units, tiling, timber flooring, carpet and painting.
Meeting with builder today but had a brief conversation mid week and they provided some pictures of completed houses that looked pretty good that didn't go above and beyond the pc sums but I guess that's all subjective really.0 -
Really depends on the size of the house and the breakdown. It can be broken down to tiling, kitchen and stove (though that can now be redundant with the new building regulations)
I found the pc sums can cover the basic. And most people put in extra. Two bathrooms covered in tiling but not the down stairs toilet. You’ll have the floor the house yourself. And that will be done afterwards once you have keys. For insurance reasons builder can’t let someone who doesn’t work for him on site.
Kitchen and wardrobes was also included but in reality this was going to be used towards the kitchen solely. If we wanted an island or inbuilt appliances the work on that was extra. It wouldn’t have covered the utility room either.
Dublin builds can have white goods included but I’ve not come across that in Cork.
If you decide you don’t like the kitchen provider for house and rather use a different kitchen provider, you can do that after you get keys. Builder can’t let them on site. But check with bank. Before, depending on the bank, they were strict on having a kitchen in for final valuation or would hold back funds until it was in. Think that’s eased off now but your bank advisor or solicitor will know.
4 bed detached, roughly 1800ft2 I think, included in the pc sums are kitchen/utility, wardrobes, sanitary ware/shower units, tiling, timber flooring, carpet and painting.
I suppose our biggest concern is we are tied to certain suppliers and don't like the offering and we don't go with them and are left at the end with lots of things to finish ourselves from our own cash and not mortgage.0 -
Turn key finish usually means that walls are magnolia and tiles are similar to show house or as spec advertised. If you are visiting the house during construction you can ask the spark to put the sockets where you want them, you might slip them a bit of cash to put extras in. Try and visualise where flat screen TVs are to be hung so that you can put sockets/aerial points and most importantly, if you can, Cat5 sockets. Sky is all WiFi based now so think where your router is going to be so that you have WiFi everywhere. Cat5 points are great because if you give the Sky installer a few quid, he will hard wire the Q boxes to your router.
Better off getting Cat 6 points for future proofing. Cat 5 hasn't been the standard for years as far as I know.0 -
4 bed detached, roughly 1800ft2 I think, included in the pc sums are kitchen/utility, wardrobes, sanitary ware/shower units, tiling, timber flooring, carpet and painting.
I suppose our biggest concern is we are tied to certain suppliers and don't like the offering and we don't go with them and are left at the end with lots of things to finish ourselves from our own cash and not mortgage.
But anything you don’t take you won’t pay. So say your contract price is €400k and that includes 10k for kitchen and 2k tiling. Your loan offer issued on the €400k purchase price. The HTB and stamp duty is paid on €400k. You sign contract now on the €400k. 4 months down the line your told go to see X supplier for kitchen and you have a look at don’t like it. And say I’m not taking the PC sum for the kitchen.
In reality on closing you get a completion statement from builder saying price is €400k less PC sum of 10K so your paying him €390k. You will have the money to do the kitchen but you have to arrange the kitchen yourself afterwards. Your solicitor will hold back the money and hand over to you then. Maybe have a chat with the solicitor Monday on it.0 -
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In reality on closing you get a completion statement from builder saying price is €400k less PC sum of 10K so your paying him €390k. You will have the money to do the kitchen but you have to arrange the kitchen yourself afterwards. Your solicitor will hold back the money and hand over to you then. Maybe have a chat with the solicitor Monday on it.
Which is nice in theory but....
The builders price on the kitchen, is a fraction of what you will pay a kitchen company, so the rebate won't go as far. Secondly, you then have to wait for house completed before you can start getting your kitchen fitted, so you're delayed getting in.
I've bought off plans twice, first builder gave loads of options on paint colours and that was it. Second one was even more restrictive, magnolia throughout, but I met the foreman, who was very helpful, and let me deal with sparks directly for a few extras.0 -
But anything you don’t take you won’t pay. So say your contract price is €400k and that includes 10k for kitchen and 2k tiling. Your loan offer issued on the €400k purchase price. The HTB and stamp duty is paid on €400k. You sign contract now on the €400k. 4 months down the line your told go to see X supplier for kitchen and you have a look at don’t like it. And say I’m not taking the PC sum for the kitchen.
In reality on closing you get a completion statement from builder saying price is €400k less PC sum of 10K so your paying him €390k. You will have the money to do the kitchen but you have to arrange the kitchen yourself afterwards. Your solicitor will hold back the money and hand over to you then. Maybe have a chat with the solicitor Monday on it.
Again great information to know, we were not sure how that would work and it's really something we knew how to ask. So as you are saying, we decide not to take the sum for the kitchen but the loan offer is already issued on what we are borrowing send when drawing down the solicitor will hold on to the amount that we did not use for the kitchen and we can use that to pay for our kitchen with the extra it might cost coming from our own pocket?
Is that standard with all banks or is it something you would need to highlight from the beginning?0 -
Which is nice in theory but....
The builders price on the kitchen, is a fraction of what you will pay a kitchen company, so the rebate won't go as far. Secondly, you then have to wait for house completed before you can start getting your kitchen fitted, so you're delayed getting in.
I've bought off plans twice, first builder gave loads of options on paint colours and that was it. Second one was even more restrictive, magnolia throughout, but I met the foreman, who was very helpful, and let me deal with sparks directly for a few extras.
Those are valid points also, the builder will have a relationship with the kitchen company they use and probably be getting a better price as using them regularly. Having to wait until house is complete to finish kitchen could be a pain too.0 -
Again great information to know, we were not sure how that would work and it's really something we knew how to ask. So as you are saying, we decide not to take the sum for the kitchen but the loan offer is already issued on what we are borrowing send when drawing down the solicitor will hold on to the amount that we did not use for the kitchen and we can use that to pay for our kitchen with the extra it might cost coming from our own pocket?
Is that standard with all banks or is it something you would need to highlight from the beginning?
That’s it exactly. Check with your solicitor or mortgage advisor first as builder won’t let you put in your own kitchen until you own the house. So you’d need to know can the bank sign off on final valuation without a kitchen. Builder can’t risk someone else coming on site and causing damage. So they would want to be free and clear of house.
And again it depends on the builder. Some builders you don’t get PC sums and you get what you get and some are flexible. But it is a pain to have to do it yourself and would delay moving in so you would really not like supplier. It’s not that you don’t have a choice. They would say x company is the supplier of tiles or kitchen. You’d go in to the supplier and ask how much is included in the sale price and take it from there.
And yes you’d need to highlight it to your solicitor so they know how much to transfer to close at the end. But builders do issue a completion statement at end of there is changes from the sale price.0 -
That’s it exactly. Check with your solicitor or mortgage advisor first as builder won’t let you put in your own kitchen until you own the house. So you’d need to know can the bank sign off on final valuation without a kitchen. Builder can’t risk someone else coming on site and causing damage. So they would want to be free and clear of house.
And again it depends on the builder. Some builders you don’t get PC sums and you get what you get and some are flexible. But it is a pain to have to do it yourself and would delay moving in so you would really not like supplier. It’s not that you don’t have a choice. They would say x company is the supplier of tiles or kitchen. You’d go in to the supplier and ask how much is included in the sale price and take it from there.
And yes you’d need to highlight it to your solicitor so they know how much to transfer to close at the end. But builders do issue a completion statement at end of there is changes from the sale price.
Thank you so much, you
have been a great help.
We met with the builder this afternoon and gave us details if who they have been using as supplier and let us get a look around an already completed and occupied house which was great. Basically if we go above pc sums with things we will need to pay the difference when they will be paying the supplier rather than on completion was my understanding, which is fair enough, but happy to engage with us and discuss options with us which is good.
We would definitely be much happier to just get the house completed and not have to worry about sorting things out ourselves at the end but also won't be agreeing to things if we don't like them.0 -
Seems a bit it unfair really when you are the one going to be living in the house and can pay to get those things done following completion anyway? I would have thought sockets etc would be fairly simple to add. Perhaps our requests might be too big so. Will find out tomorrow!
Sockets are easy to add before first fix. After that, it gets more awkward. After second fix, forget it.
I understand not accepting requests to be honest. The more similar the houses, the quicker the build process. Once everyone gets wind that requests are accepted, then every house will end up deviating off spec.
You're a number on a spreadsheet. Nothing else. One thing a developer never has to worry about is customer retention.0 -
New builds are great however people are finding half the estate is social housing
So one side is houses with lots of kids the other side is Europeans in PayPal, Facebook etc newly weds working and gone 10 hours a day0 -
utmbuilder wrote: »New builds are great however people are finding half the estate is social housing
So one side is houses with lots of kids the other side is Europeans in PayPal, Facebook etc newly weds working and gone 10 hours a day
And again it’s worth asking where the social housing will be allocated. Some builders won’t tell you but some will. The estate we are looking at have told us which ones they will be. If they don’t, see if your solicitor can push for an answer pre contract. I grew up in a council estate so it would influence me where the houses are allocated.0 -
Sockets are easy to add before first fix. After that, it gets more awkward. After second fix, forget it.
I understand not accepting requests to be honest. The more similar the houses, the quicker the build process. Once everyone gets wind that requests are accepted, then every house will end up deviating off spec.
You're a number on a spreadsheet. Nothing else. One thing a developer never has to worry about is customer retention.
I do get the point around requests, especially in larger developments, there are deadlines to be met and costs can spiral if, as you say, all house look to be going off spec.
We had a chat with the builder yesterday and he was open to discussing anything we wanted anyway which was positive, whether he will agree to anything when requested is still unknown.
What do people think would be the best way to ensure enough outlets per room without being too demanding/awkward?0 -
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utmbuilder wrote: »New builds are great however people are finding half the estate is social housing
So one side is houses with lots of kids the other side is Europeans in PayPal, Facebook etc newly weds working and gone 10 hours a day
We are being told it is a private cul de sac with no social housing, but there is more land to be developed behind this current development which may well have social housing.0
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