Flightshaming to London from Dublin

Sam Russell

easypazz wrote: »

It goes nearly all the way to the ferry terminal, not viable though for passenger traffic.

I think Dun Laoghaire is a better option if they ever sought to ramp up sail rail / foot passenger traffic.

The Luas goes as far as the point. Just 2 km short of the terminal.

purplepanda

Sam Russell wrote: »

The Luas goes as far as the point. Just 2 km short of the terminal.

It's still a very long walk from The Point, especially with luggage to the Ferry Terminals.

TERMINAL 1 – IRISH FERRIES – 46 min walk (3.7km)
TERMINAL 2 – STENA LINE – 39 min walk (3.2km)
TERMINAL 3 – P&O FERRIES – 9 min walk (750m) For Liverpool Ferry.

Are there any local Taxi's at The Point, I assume there must be demand with concerts & events?

https://www.dublinport.ie/tourism/getting-around/

easypazz

Sam Russell wrote: »

The Luas goes as far as the point. Just 2 km short of the terminal.

And before that there was a heavy rail link, and a passenger terminus station down the north wall, but it was all dug up and relaid as a tramway at a cost of billions.

Sam Russell

purplepanda wrote: »

It's still a very long walk from The Point, especially with luggage to the Ferry Terminals.

TERMINAL 1 – IRISH FERRIES – 46 min walk (3.7km)
TERMINAL 2 – STENA LINE – 39 min walk (3.2km)
TERMINAL 3 – P&O FERRIES – 9 min walk (750m) For Liverpool Ferry.

Are there any local Taxi's at The Point, I assume there must be demand with concerts & events?

https://www.dublinport.ie/tourism/getting-around/

I was thinking of them extending the Luas if there was demand. Obviously trams would only go to meet ferries.

Del.Monte

easypazz wrote: »

And before that there was a heavy rail link, and a passenger terminus station down the north wall, but it was all dug up and relaid as a tramway at a cost of billions.

This is post all over the place. The Luas Red line extension (C1) was not laid along the route of the original railway to the London & North Western Station Hotel and runs along the road from Busaras to the Point and cost circa €100 million IIRC not billions.

Thisonedone

easypazz wrote: »

I have a better idea.

Build a boat with 2 platforms down the middle.

Irish gauge train rolls in one side, UK gauge train waits across the platform.

People can just walk across the platform onto a UK gauge train, and do it while the ship is on the sea, so no time is wasted.

Simples.

Or what about:
Train goes onto ferry in Ireland
At Uk side, a crane lifts the train off ferry with the passengers inside it, and places the train on top of an adaptor so that it works on the UK lines

easypazz

Thisonedone wrote: »

Or what about:
Train goes onto ferry in Ireland
At Uk side, a crane lifts the train off ferry with the passengers inside it, and places the train on top of an adaptor so that it works on the UK lines

Or instead of a crane just drive the irish train onto the back of a uk train.

Same as you drive a car onto a pickup truck.

PhilOssophy

By the time you'd be done arsing around with a crane, you'd have the passengers all changed and be 1/2 way to London!

whisky_galore

easypazz wrote: »

Or instead of a crane just drive the irish train onto the back of a uk train.

Same as you drive a car onto a pickup truck.

Or what about not discussing pointless things that will never happen?

easypazz

whisky_galore wrote: »

Or what about not discussing pointless things that will never happen?

Use the ignore button if it causes you a problem:rolleyes:

bk

easypazz wrote: »

Or instead of a crane just drive the irish train onto the back of a uk train.

Same as you drive a car onto a pickup truck.

Unlikely to be possible due to the extra width, height and weight of the Irish train on top of it.

Even if you could, the resulting train would crawl to London due to being more like a heavy weight freight train then a light weight passenger train. You'd likely at least double the journey time!

If you want to talk about radical ideas that won't happen anyway. Then a better idea would be to build a HSR line to holyhead and connect it into the HS2 network. That would radically reduce overall journey times for even foot passengers off the ferry. Not that it will happen.

Lord Glentoran

bk wrote: »

Unlikely to be possible due to the extra width, height and weight of the Irish train on top of it.

Even if you could, the resulting train would crawl to London due to being more like a heavy weight freight train then a light weight passenger train. You'd likely at least double the journey time!

If you want to talk about radical ideas that won't happen anyway. Then a better idea would be to build a HSR line to holyhead and connect it into the HS2 network. That would radically reduce overall journey times for even foot passengers off the ferry. Not that it will happen.

I think you are forgetting that the British approach can be summed up as “our railway network is near capacity and we can’t build more motorways, so we’ll expand railway capacity”, while the Irish approach is “Mosherways, me buckos, and we’ll give some gravy to some shams as well”.

biko

thecretinhop wrote: »

flight shaming?? what clowns invented this??

Swedes of course, they also invented Greta

What is flygskam?
This Swedish word literally translates as “flight shame”. It’s the name of an anti-flying movement that originated in Sweden last year, which encourages people to stop taking flights to lower carbon emissions.

The idea was originally championed by Olympic athlete Bjorn Ferry and gained momentum after teenage activist Greta Thunberg’s mother, the opera singer Malena Ernman, publicly announced she would stop flying, with various Swedish celebrities following suit.

KevRossi

Let's start with the basics:
1. Extend the Sail & Rail option to France, Germany and Benelux. Start off at €60 each way and see how that works for 12 months.
2. Time trains and ferries to meet with each other in Holyhead, Pembroke, Fishguard and Rosslare.
3. Get a night train sorted from Holyhead to London and London to Holyhead

The idea of getting trains onto the Holyhead-Dublin ferry is pie in the sky stuff. Far cheaper to do something to make the transfer from train to boat and back to train a bit easier. Maybe have a train or Luas running to the port, but it's not the major issue right now.

Or you could have the shuttle bus on the ferry running straight to Busaras and on to Heuston.
At the moment you

1. get off the train in Holyhead,
2. you put the bags through a scanner,
3. the bags then go onto a van.
4. You get on a shuttle bus.
5. The van follows the shuttle bus onto the ferry.
6. In Dublin you get off the boat, take the shuttle bus to the ferry port and then
7. wait to get the bags off the carousel.
8. Then you wait for the Dublin Bus to the city centre.

Instead have this:

1. off the train in Holyhead,
2. scan bags, put them on a coach.
3. This coach brings you onto the boat.
4. In Dublin on the boat you get back on the same coach which drops people at Busaras/Connolly, O'Connell Bridge and Heuston.

cbreeze

KevRossi wrote: »

Let's start with the basics:
1. Extend the Sail & Rail option to France, Germany and Benelux. Start off at €60 each way and see how that works for 12 months.
2. Time trains and ferries to meet with each other in Holyhead, Pembroke, Fishguard and Rosslare.
3. Get a night train sorted from Holyhead to London and London to Holyhead

The idea of getting trains onto the Holyhead-Dublin ferry is pie in the sky stuff. Far cheaper to do something to make the transfer from train to boat and back to train a bit easier. Maybe have a train or Luas running to the port, but it's not the major issue right now.

Or you could have the shuttle bus on the ferry running straight to Busaras and on to Heuston.
At the moment you

1. get off the train in Holyhead,
2. you put the bags through a scanner,
3. the bags then go onto a van.
4. You get on a shuttle bus.
5. The van follows the shuttle bus onto the ferry.
6. In Dublin you get off the boat, take the shuttle bus to the ferry port and then
7. wait to get the bags off the carousel.
8. Then you wait for the Dublin Bus to the city centre.

Instead have this:

1. off the train in Holyhead,
2. scan bags, put them on a coach.
3. This coach brings you onto the boat.
4. In Dublin on the boat you get back on the same coach which drops people at Busaras/Connolly, O'Connell Bridge and Heuston.

I did the Victoria-bus-Holyhead-Ferry-bus home from London the year before last and it was totally demeaning. You had to drag your bags off the bus at Holyhead and entered a vast hall to have your bags, passport and self be examined by a bunch of shaven headed gauleiters wearing blue examination gloves before you were permitted to get back on the bus for the short trip to the boat. Mind you, I did not bring all my stuff with me - only the bag in the bus hold

Terrontress

It used to be possible to get a 6.50 Pendelino train from Euston, change at Chester, get on the Swift in Holyhead and be in Dublin Port for 1.30pm. I was able to get a 6am train from my local station

That cost £50, could be booked on the day, unlimited luggage, kids under 5 for free and was a very pleasant journey.

If I were flying at 11, I’d leave my local station at between 8 and 8.15, would be limited in luggage and have a much worse experience.

But somehow, the trains leave a bit later and the Swift leaves a bit earlier and they no longer meet. So you get a later train from Euston, more hanging about in Holyhead, a slower boat and into Dublin 8 hours later. It’s just not worth it.

trellheim

I think this argument about train ferries is silly with as we have a different gauge. ferry across the messina straits Italy/Sicily, yes, makes sense, but not here. . The best would be to extend the railway in Holyhead to where you get off the ferries to make it joined up again

Ubbquittious

First we had slutshaming, now we have flightshaming. Nobody is immune anymore. Daft world we are living in

whisky_galore

cbreeze wrote: »

You had to drag your bags off the bus at Holyhead and entered a vast hall to have your bags, passport and self be examined by a bunch of shaven headed gauleiters wearing blue examination gloves

Not that different to airport security then.
Did you expect movie star treatment?

easypazz

cbreeze wrote: »

I did the Victoria-bus-Holyhead-Ferry-bus home from London the year before last and it was totally demeaning. You had to drag your bags off the bus at Holyhead and entered a vast hall to have your bags, passport and self be examined by a bunch of shaven headed gauleiters wearing blue examination gloves before you were permitted to get back on the bus for the short trip to the boat. Mind you, I did not bring all my stuff with me - only the bag in the bus hold

I remember when there was minimal security checks.

This was at a time when the IRA were bringing truck bombs into central London via the ferry.

loyatemu

Ubbquittious wrote: »

First we had slutshaming, now we have flightshaming. Nobody is immune anymore. Daft world we are living in

as was explained above, no one is being shamed. It's about discussing alternative options for people who don't feel comfortable with the environmental cost of flying.

People keep mentioning Dun Laoghaire, the ferry there is gone, and is very unlikely to ever return. You might as well talk about Howth.

trellheim

Same for Rosslare ( train doesnt go into the port anymore ), Dun Laoighaire ( Ferry gone, and rail lines long lifted). on the other side

Holyhead - train doesnt go to the quayside anymore, Stranraer ferries now changed to Cairnryan which hasnt had a rail service since 1962
,
Dublin - rail line to the ferries is disused

Thisonedone

How much would a tunnel to France cost?

easypazz

Thisonedone wrote: »

How much would a tunnel to France cost?

Should be handy enough. Just lay a plastic tube from a ship onto the sea bed, stick people in little pods and vacuum them across, would only take minutes.

Thisonedone

easypazz wrote: »

Should be handy enough. Just lay a plastic tube from a ship onto the sea bed, stick people in little pods and vacuum them across, would only take minutes.

The boring company have been fairly quiet recently, are they making much progress? They claim they can tunnel at a fraction of the cost of the current crowd.

loyatemu

Thisonedone wrote: »

The boring company have been fairly quiet recently, are they making much progress? They claim they can tunnel at a fraction of the cost of the current crowd.

their recent demo involved sticking a Tesla car in a tube, so it's safe to say they haven't worked out all the technical issues yet.

machaseh

There will be a direct train from Amsterdam to London and back starting end of april, I saw on the Dutch news (article in Dutch so no use sharing it here).

That would mean I could take the direct bus to London and then the train.

Still that would take about 18 hours in total and would probably cost 5 to 10 times more than a return ticket on ryan air.

Lord Glentoran

machaseh wrote: »

There will be a direct train from Amsterdam to London and back starting end of april, I saw on the Dutch news (article in Dutch so no use sharing it here).

That would mean I could take the direct bus to London and then the train.

Still that would take about 18 hours in total and would probably cost 5 to 10 times more than a return ticket on ryan air.

Why in the name of Christ would you take the bus from Dublin to London instead of the train????

Johnny Sausage

purplepanda wrote: »

It's still a very long walk from The Point, especially with luggage to the Ferry Terminals.

TERMINAL 1 – IRISH FERRIES – 46 min walk (3.7km)
TERMINAL 2 – STENA LINE – 39 min walk (3.2km)
TERMINAL 3 – P&O FERRIES – 9 min walk (750m) For Liverpool Ferry.

Are there any local Taxi's at The Point, I assume there must be demand with concerts & events?

https://www.dublinport.ie/tourism/getting-around/

The P&O ferries to liverpool doesn't even take foot passengers

machaseh

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

Why in the name of Christ would you take the bus from Dublin to London instead of the train????

I could do that too, but then it would only be a bit quicker and a LOT more expensive.

For that price I could take KLM or Aer Lingus return in business class easily.

machaseh

Johnny Sausage wrote: »

The P&O ferries to liverpool doesn't even take foot passengers

Do they have a bus service though?

I have never been to liverpool, but it sounds insane for me to fly such a short distance when there's a direct ferry. I do not have a car and do not drive.

L1011

machaseh wrote: »

Do they have a bus service though?

I have never been to liverpool, but it sounds insane for me to fly such a short distance when there's a direct ferry. I do not have a car and do not drive.

No, and it's a very slow ferry. Swift and rail from Holyhead would well beat it.

Johnny Sausage

L1011 wrote: »

No, and it's a very slow ferry. Swift and rail from Holyhead would well beat it.

Eurolines have a bus, 52e and takes 7 and a half hours via Holyhead and Warrington.

if you arent flying or driving and arent pushed for time the sail rail and change to merseyrail at chester is grand

cnocbui

Flightshaming. Nice try, but I have no shame and will fly whenever it pleases me and not feel a scintilla of shame or remorse.

machaseh

Johnny Sausage wrote: »

Eurolines have a bus, 52e and takes 7 and a half hours via Holyhead and Warrington.

if you arent flying or driving and arent pushed for time the sail rail and change to merseyrail at chester is grand

Okay so basically the airplane is the only feasible option for liverpool. What a ridiculous situation.

Why not make a proper ferry to liverpool ! It's so close by.

Sam Russell

machaseh wrote: »

Okay so basically the airplane is the only feasible option for liverpool. What a ridiculous situation.

Why not make a proper ferry to liverpool ! It's so close by.

I don't think Liverpool is that nearby because they have locks guarding the port that delays the ferry quite a bit. Birkenhead might be better. That is where the cattle boats used to go, I think.

Johnny Sausage

Sam Russell wrote: »

I don't think Liverpool is that nearby because they have locks guarding the port that delays the ferry quite a bit. Birkenhead might be better. That is where the cattle boats used to go, I think.

Stenaline go from Belfast to Birkenhead, takes about 8 hours as well

Thelonious Monk

cnocbui wrote: »

Flightshaming. Nice try, but I have no shame and will fly whenever it pleases me and not feel a scintilla of shame or remorse.

well you should try and think about your actions and the effects they have on the planet, we all should. You wont though, like most people, and that is why we are f*cked as a species.

L1011

machaseh wrote: »

Okay so basically the airplane is the only feasible option for liverpool. What a ridiculous situation.

Why not make a proper ferry to liverpool ! It's so close by.

Because passenger demand is not sufficient to spend hundreds of millions on a fast ferry, foot passenger terminals etc and then deal with the rolling cancellations fast ferries have in bad weather.

Stevieluvsye

machaseh wrote: »

Okay so basically the airplane is the only feasible option for liverpool. What a ridiculous situation.

Why not make a proper ferry to liverpool ! It's so close by.

They used to when flights were expensive.

I used to get it once a month to go to Cream when it was open in Liverpool. Good, cheap service that took you in to LPL docks

Brian CivilEng

machaseh wrote: »

I could do that too, but then it would only be a bit quicker and a LOT more expensive.

For that price I could take KLM or Aer Lingus return in business class easily.

€47 each way?

Brian CivilEng

Just looked at the schedules for travelling Dublin to Amsterdam in a day, if they tried to make it more awkward they couldn't.

Taking the 08:15 Ulysses will get you in to Holyhead at 11:30. Train to London is at 12:53 which will get you to Euston at 16:36. Direct Eurostar to Amsterdam is at 17:16. Would get you there by 22:11 local time, but don't think that 40mins is enough to get you from Euston to St. Pancras and then through security and immigration. (Cost would be €47 + £35).

So ok, get the 02:15 Stenaline to Holyhead, train to London at 06:55 gets you to Euston at 10:37. Next train to Amsterdam is at 11:04, no chance of that. So hang around London all day until the 17:16.

Would be fun, but jeepers those timings are insane. Meanwhile I could fly to Amsterdam on Ryanair tomorrow at a sane hour for €35.

Dublin to Paris or Brussels would be doable in a day from the 08:15 ferry. Amsterdam... not until HS2 I think.

cnocbui

Seriously? People think catching a ferry has a lower CO2 consequence than flying?

magicbastarder

not only do people here think that, other people do too:

crisco10 wrote: »

The British government have a fairly comprehensive dataset of emission factors for various types of transport titled "UK Government GHG Conversion Factors for Company Reporting"

Here's a few highlights:

Emission Factor (kgCO2 e) per km Comment
Short Haul Flight 0.16 Accounts for CO2 being emitted at altitude
Ferry - Foot Passenger 0.02
Ferry - Car Passenger 0.13
Coach 0.03
National Rail 0.04


Cruise ships aren't listed, but are significantly worse than ferries because they carry around all the facilities that are unnecessary. E.g. multiple swimming pools!

whisky_galore

cnocbui wrote: »

Seriously? People think catching a ferry has a lower CO2 consequence than flying?

Who cares? It's hardly like either of them will be cancelled if you choose not to travel.

AAAAAAAAA

Thisonedone wrote: »

The boring company have been fairly quiet recently, are they making much progress? They claim they can tunnel at a fraction of the cost of the current crowd.

They can tunnel at a fraction of the cost of a traditional tunnel because they are tunnelling a fraction of the cross sectional area of the tunnels they are comparing their projects to!

cnocbui

magicbastarder wrote: »

not only do people here think that, other people do too:

Depends where you look. I'll bet the passenger ferry data is distorted by freight and vehicles.

Is cruising any greener than flying?

George Monbiot, environmental campaigner and author

“There are remarkably few figures. But George Marshall of the Climate Outreach Information Network has conducted a rough initial calculation for the Queen Elizabeth II. Cunard says the ship burns 433 tonnes of fuel a day, and takes six days to travel from Southampton to New York. If the ship is full, every passenger with a return ticket consumes 2.9 tonnes. A tonne of shipping fuel contains 0.85 tonnes of carbon, which produces 3.1 tonnes of carbon dioxide when it is burnt. Every passenger is responsible for 9.1 tonnes of emissions. Travelling to New York and back on the QEII, in other words, uses almost 7.6 times as much carbon as making the same journey by plane.”

What about travelling by boat?

The BEIS has also put a figure on ferry transport - 18g of CO2 per passenger kilometre for a foot passenger, which is less than a coach, or 128g for a driver and car, which is more like a long-haul flight.

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-49349566

And if you look at that article, you would note that a car with one passenger emits more CO2 per km than taking a domestic flight.

Here are the five most environmentally harmful ways to travel:

1 Large RoPax ferry: 0.85lb CO2 per km/0.6 miles
2 Long-haul flight, first class: 0.71lb CO2 per km/0.6 miles

https://www.salon.com/2017/08/30/planes-trains-or-automobiles-what-will-the-most-carbon-efficient-way-to-travel_partner/

magicbastarder

using the QE2 as a benchmark is hardly fair, though?
it's a 50+ year old luxury vessel (now parked up as a floating hotel).
it's significantly heavier than the ulysses, and has a lower passenger capacity - and that's not even allowing for the ulysses *also* being able to take over 1,000 cars and/or (not sure which it is) 200 trucks.

Brian CivilEng

Also when comparing emissions per km, Dublin to Holyhead is sufficiently fewer than Dublin to London. The train journey the rest of the way definitely has a lower carbon footprint to a plane.

quokula

whisky_galore wrote: »

Who cares? It's hardly like either of them will be cancelled if you choose not to travel.

If enough people change their habits then Ryanair aren't going to keep flying half empty planes back and forth at a loss.

There is an argument that ferry foot passengers are effectively free though, as the ferry schedule will always be dictated by the demand from trucks and cars.