West classified as 'region in decline' by EU

Fairly shocking that the EU is willing to pay for more than 50% of the cost of some of the projects in the North West and the current government not in a position to make up the difference.

It will hopefully help fast track the M17 heading North and better connections to Enniskillen and Northern Ireland. Maybe eventually it won't be just somewhere for people from the east to have holiday homes dotted everywhere and the conditions are created for more industry to move there.

https://www.con-telegraph.ie/news/roundup/articles/2020/01/28/4184933-west-classified-as-regio/

“It is now official, we have a two tier economy, with Dublin and the south of the country classified as a developed region, with the west and north west classified as a region in transition, meaning that the north west of Ireland is declining at a rapid rate and well on its way to becoming an objective one status region.

“Objective one status would classify the west of Ireland as one of the least developed regions in the EU.

“Though the new transition classification will mean better EU co-funding rates for the west of Ireland, the reality is that successive governments have failed to nominate critical infrastructure projects in the west, even in circumstances where in excess of 50% matching funding would be available from the EU.

“The story is the same right across the EU, large tracts of rural Europe are now classified as regions in transition, with their nation states at best indifferent, and at worst, actively impeding the roll out of EU funded infrastructure to their respective rural regions.

“Tourism, CAP and Leader will not reverse rural decline, forestry, industrial wind farms and greenways are not the answer.

“National governments must stop discrimating against our regions and embark on a major extensive multi billion infrastructural investment plan.”

magicbastarder

how much does the non-nucleated nature of much of the irish population spread in rural areas play into this?

Thelonious Monk

You have a city and region which has a relatively dense population and all the benefits that brings to companies wishing to locate somewhere, and then you have places like Donegal which looks like someone just jizzed a load of bungalows all over the landscape with zero planning or thought put into it.
How is any kind of industry supposed to thrive in dispersed poorly serviced areas, and how are you supposed to service these areas when no one wants to live in towns or villages?

magicbastarder

magicbastarder wrote: »

how much does the non-nucleated nature of much of the irish population spread in rural areas play into this?

Quite a bit id say. But unless better links to the major towns/cities are created and conditions for employment are created/maintained then it will only get worse.

It took a combined effort from Allergan/Baxter/Coke/Hollister (Almost 5k jobs)to lobby the government to improve the N5 as their product was been damaged due to the conditions of the transport roads. That should never, never have been required to do.
I expect the adequate freight rail infrastructure was not there in the first place.

Not taking advantage of EU funding to maintain/improve the infrastructure in the region is disappointing.

The councils do need to tighten up and it should be impossible to build countryside holiday homes in the region.

The fastest transatlantic fibre link lands in Killala, it also has ample renewable energy. Why has the government not ensured there is infrastructure there for Data centers to relocate there, or at least incentive's for them to move west.

there's a bit of cart-before-horse, or at least assumptions at play here lads

plenty would move west and live in a town were there jobs to be had, there isn't and successive governments have done nothing to change that.

Thelonious Monk

Deleted User wrote: »

there's a bit of cart-before-horse, or at least assumptions at play here lads

plenty would move west and live in a town were there jobs to be had, there isn't and successive governments have done nothing to change that.

What kind of companies do you think would relocate there?

ncounties

I'm from the North West, so feel I am allowed to comment harshly on this. Not everywhere on this island can be a Dublin or Belfast. If you want to live in a small "idylic" [hah!] villiage, 30kms from your nearest town, that's fine, but don't expect high speed broadband, public transport services, or a massive high paying employer in said area.

Investment should be concentrated on infrastructure in Dublin, between Dublin and our regional cities, and links with our regional cities and their immediate environs. Everything else should be left to natural evolution. We can help this if we stop granting permission for one off dwellings, and developments further than a kilometre from an existing town or villiage.

CrabRevolution

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

You have a city and region which has a relatively dense population and all the benefits that brings to companies wishing to locate somewhere, and then you have places like Donegal which looks like someone just jizzed a load of bungalows all over the landscape with zero planning or thought put into it.
How is any kind of industry supposed to thrive in dispersed poorly serviced areas, and how are you supposed to service these areas when no one wants to live in towns or villages?

Pretty much this. My parents have been doing a lot of travelling Ireland and the world the last few years as we kids have grown up and gotten jobs. My mother seems easily impressed as they seem to have yet to have a bad trip, and apparently everywhere on earth is beautiful.

The only exception seems to have been Donegal. Food, hotel, people etc. were all lovely, but they said it's actually an unpleasant county to look at because they've just built everywhere. Houses just thrown everywhere, along every road and field and along every beach.

I know that's not scientific evidence for anything but it's telling that in a country full of one off housing, my parents (who wouldn't even recognise terms like "dispersed population" or "ribbon development") still noticed the excessive sprawl in Donegal. I'd imagine a proper, evidence based survey of this and its effects on industry and quality of life would be damning.

NIMAN

I don't see what dispersed housing has got to do with government not investing money into roads and jobs?

We don't want jobs delivered to our front door. We'll drive to the nearest town to work!

Thelonious Monk

NIMAN wrote: »

I don't see what dispersed housing has got to do with government not investing money into roads and jobs?

We don't want jobs delivered to our front door. We'll drive to the nearest town to work!

What kind of companies do you think would want to relocate to these places?

magicbastarder

CrabRevolution wrote: »

The only exception seems to have been Donegal. Food, hotel, people etc. were all lovely, but they said it's actually an unpleasant county to look at because they've just built everywhere. Houses just thrown everywhere, along every road and field and along every beach.

we were in donegal a few years ago, and went to gweedore to try to find a place to stay on spec. drove away again in a huff, the place is an unmitigated disaster. if you want to eat somewhere different to the actual hotel you're staying in, you've probably got a mile long walk.
we drove to ardara instead, which is a lovely spot.

ncounties

ncounties wrote: »

I'm from the North West, so feel I am allowed to comment harshly on this. Not everywhere on this island can be a Dublin or Belfast. If you want to live in a small "idylic" [hah!] villiage, 30kms from your nearest town, that's fine, but don't expect high speed broadband, public transport services, or a massive high paying employer in said area.

Investment should be concentrated on infrastructure in Dublin, between Dublin and our regional cities, and links with our regional cities and their immediate environs. Everything else should be left to natural evolution. We can help this if we stop granting permission for one off dwellings, and developments further than a kilometre from an existing town or villiage.

Dublin can't handle the jobs it has. There is not the staff or the accommodation for them.
Sligo, Castlebar, Carrick, Roscommon, Ballina, are all reasonably sized towns. They have the personnel(dependent on position) and accommodation available. You are literally talking a few hundred jobs to improve places like these. The high skilled % required could be refilled by attracting those that left for Dublin to come back. It would regenerate all these towns fairly quickly. For the past 10 years it appears to be to shove all jobs to Dublin even if they can't take them. If further tax breaks are required it should be look at.

magicbastarder

NIMAN wrote: »

I don't see what dispersed housing has got to do with government not investing money into roads and jobs?

dispersed houses are more expensive to provide services to. post, electricity, broadband, etc.

i will try to dig it out, but i once read that ireland uses four times as much miles of copper per capita in providing electricity to domestic customers than in the UK.

CrabRevolution

NIMAN wrote: »

I don't see what dispersed housing has got to do with government not investing money into roads and jobs?

We don't want jobs delivered to our front door. We'll drive to the nearest town to work!

But then they'll give out when the local village pub, shop and post office close because everyone lives out the country and drives to the nearest town to do their living and shopping. Also it makes it impossible to provide public transport because everyone is spread out and drives everywhere anyway.

And what jobs can the government create? People love to talk about "moving jobs out of Dublin" but companies can't be forced to move or set up in a given spot.

NIMAN

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

What kind of companies do you think would want to relocate to these places?

Maybe the likes of Pramerica and Optum in Letterkenny.

Or E&I Engineering in Burnfoot in Donegal. Basically a village.

Or Abbott in Donegal town and Sligo.

Maybe even include Seagate Technology in Derry, often left out of NI investment just like the nw.

There are certain employers willing to come to these parts, don't see why others wouldn't be interested if the government will was there.

But I think they prefer to bring them to the big cities first.

NIMAN

CrabRevolution wrote: »

And what jobs can the government create? People love to talk about "moving jobs out of Dublin" but companies can't be forced to move or set up in a given spot.

The government agencies in Ireland are excellent at job creation. They have brought plenty of big companies to areas outside Dublin. If the will was there to bring a few more to the nw, they could do it.

I just don't think the will is there.

NIMAN

CrabRevolution wrote: »

But then they'll give out when the local village pub, shop and post office close because everyone lives out the country and drives to the nearest town to do their living and shopping.

Sorry but this is wrong.

We can still live in our small villages and towns and drive to work.

I do it and I know plenty that do as well.

Just because a big employer is in your nearest town doesn't mean you have to live there.

My commute is a lot shorter than many thousands travelling into Dublin every day.

CrabRevolution

NIMAN wrote: »

The government agencies in Ireland are excellent at job creation. They have brought plenty of big companies to areas outside Dublin. If the will was there to bring a few more to the nw, they could do it.

I just don't think the will is there.

I think that's the major part of this argument. People assume the government is all powerful and tells these companies where to set up. It's a tough realisation that 90% of companies just don't want to set up in these places. Some do, and that's great, but the notion that the company makes no decisions by themselves and it's all the government's doing is ridiculous.

The IDA and government would love nothing more than major companies to set up in the rest of the country.

NIMAN

I think there is definitely a bias against certain parts of the country by a lot of people.

Have you ever looked at the maps showing main roads, railways etc to the nw? It's embarrassing and shows a total lack of investment by the government for decades.

I'm not looking for a bus to my front door, or a train. But one to the nearest big town would be a nice option to have.

ncounties

Deleted User wrote: »

Dublin can't handle the jobs it has. There is not the staff or the accommodation for them.
Sligo, Castlebar, Carrick, Roscommon, Ballina, are all reasonably sized towns. They have the personnel(dependent on position) and accommodation available. You are literally talking a few hundred jobs to improve places like these. The high skilled % required could be refilled by attracting those that left for Dublin to come back. It would regenerate all these towns fairly quickly. For the past 10 years it appears to be to shove all jobs to Dublin even if they can't take them. If further tax breaks are required it should be look at.

And yet the businesses continue to locate there, and companies continue to function. If you want to reverse the "decline" in the west or north west, you concentrate FDI in the regional cities. Derry, Sligo, Galway, Limerick. Then you concentrate infrastructure development in said places.

There is a finite number of companies and a finite transport budget - this can't be spread across every single settlement in the country.

ncounties

NIMAN wrote: »

I think there is definitely a bias against certain parts of the country by a lot of people.

Have you ever looked at the maps showing main roads, railways etc to the nw? It's embarrassing and shows a total lack of investment by the government for decades.

I'm not looking for a bus to my front door, or a train. But one to the nearest big town would be a nice option to have.

Look at the WRC - it doesn't work.

CrankyHaus

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The fastest transatlantic fibre link lands in Killala, it also has ample renewable energy. Why has the government not ensured there is infrastructure there for Data centers to relocate there, or at least incentive's for them to move west.

Apple's ill fated Athenry Data Centre may dissuade anyone else considering building one in the West, particularly as the Facebook one in Clonee flew up during the same period.

NIMAN

There seems to be a 100% belief that all companies are saying "we want to be in Dublin and nowhere else".

How do people know this?

ncounties

NIMAN wrote: »

There seems to be a 100% belief that all companies are saying "we want to be in Dublin and nowhere else".

How do people know this?

Because the vast number of them are located there.

johnmcdnl

There's plenty of people living in Dublin, Cork or Galway who'd be more than happy to move back to their one off house in the middle of the sticks with average broadband, happy to have just a small school, and more than happy to live without the 100s of other services that cities provide and would be delighted to have a 20-30 min drive to the closest major town for work.
Even if you had to give up the one of housing and move to the towns, you'd still do that and be closer to home. Having family close by helps with childcare and of course just generally good being home close to family and friends.

However the reality is though for anyone with any ambition of working in any sort of major business there's simply no opportunities so you drift off to the city and come home less and less over the years and the longer you do this the less hope you ever see of having a future in the region.

There's plenty of young people in there 20s and 30s who would move home and relieve the pressure on Dublin it there was an opportunity but we just don't see it. So we'll probably settle and buy in Dublin and set our roots.

Of course it's a chicken and egg situation because so few major employers will setup in the region due to the lack of skilled employees who have left, and none of the skilled employees will move back without opportunities.

ncounties

johnmcdnl wrote: »

There's plenty of people living in Dublin, Cork or Galway who'd be more than happy to move back to their one off house in the middle of the sticks with average broadband, happy to have just a small school, and more than happy to live without the 100s of other services that cities provide and would be delighted to have a 20-30 min drive to the closest major town for work.
Even if you had to give up the one of housing and move to the towns, you'd still do that and be closer to home. Having family close by helps with childcare and of course just generally good being home close to family and friends.

However the reality is though for anyone with any ambition of working in any sort of major business there's simply no opportunities so you drift off to the city and come home less and less over the years and the longer you do this the less hope you ever see of having a future in the region.

There's plenty of young people in there 20s and 30s who would move home and relieve the pressure on Dublin it there was an opportunity but we just don't see it. So we'll probably settle and buy in Dublin and set our roots.

Of course it's a chicken and egg situation because so few major employers will setup in the region due to the lack of skilled employees who have left, and none of the skilled employees will move back without opportunities.

Im 29 and live in Dublin because its a large multicultural city, with lots of jobs, further education opportunities and clubs to enjoy. 20 mins from my house is one of the largest airports in Europe, which means I can go for a city break of a weekend, and not have to take the Friday off. If my company relocated to my hometown, with the same salary and benefits, I would stay in Dublin.

NIMAN

ncounties wrote: »

Because the vast number of them are located there.

Doesn't address the point.

Maybe they are being told Dublin is the only option?

I know for a fact that a guy wanted to locate in Derry but when he approached Invest NI he was given a list of 5 or 6 potential sites, all in Belfast.

There is bias in gov agencies too.

Zebra3

I don't think many US business executives would fancy the idea of a four drive from Dublin to Donegal after a transatlantic flight to visit their Irish factory.

May have something to do with it.

NIMAN

Are people saying the EU is wrong by the way?

NIMAN

Zebra3 wrote: »

I don't think many US business executives would fancy the idea of a four drive from Dublin to Donegal after a transatlantic flight to visit their Irish factory.

May have something to do with it.

Then how come there are US companies in Derry, Letterkenny, Donegal town and Sligo already then?

NIMAN

ncounties wrote: »

Im 29 and live in Dublin because its a large multicultural city, with lots of jobs, further education opportunities and clubs to enjoy. 20 mins from my house is one of the largest airports in Europe, which means I can go for a city break of a weekend, and not have to take the Friday off. If my company relocated to my hometown, with the same salary and benefits, I would stay in Dublin.

Anecdotal.
Others might relocate home.

Thelonious Monk

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

What kind of companies do you think would relocate there?

what kind of things are stopping companies moving there, and what might a government do about them?

ncounties

ncounties wrote: »

I'm from the North West, so feel I am allowed to comment harshly on this. Not everywhere on this island can be a Dublin or Belfast.

im from the west, have lived in the northwest, currently live in Dublin and i feel im allowed to comment clearly on this:

Nowhere on this island should be a Dublin

Zebra3

NIMAN wrote: »

Then how come there are US companies in Derry, Letterkenny, Donegal town and Sligo already then?

Hence why I used "many" and not "all".

Zebra3

Zebra3 wrote: »

I don't think many US business executives would fancy the idea of a four drive from Dublin to Donegal after a transatlantic flight to visit their Irish factory.

May have something to do with it.

is this an argument for having everything in dublin, or against

because i could see it either way tbh

Thelonious Monk

Deleted User wrote: »

what kind of things are stopping companies moving there, and what might a government do about them?

You have to own a car. There's no public transport. No airports. No other big business. Impossible to attract staff. Given the multi national profile of our workforces these days what foreign person in their right mind would want to live there? Oh and it rains twice as much as Dublin.

Zebra3

Deleted User wrote: »

is this an argument for having everything in dublin, or against

because i could see it either way tbh

It's not an argument either way.

Merely a point that may effect the decision.

Idbatterim

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Dublin can't handle the jobs it has. There is not the staff or the accommodation for them.
Sligo, Castlebar, Carrick, Roscommon, Ballina, are all reasonably sized towns. They have the personnel(dependent on position) and accommodation available. You are literally talking a few hundred jobs to improve places like these. The high skilled % required could be refilled by attracting those that left for Dublin to come back. It would regenerate all these towns fairly quickly. For the past 10 years it appears to be to shove all jobs to Dublin even if they can't take them. If further tax breaks are required it should be look at.

Have you seen how much land is available when flying into Dublin ? There is farm land inside the m50 circle. There is still appalling land use! Dublins issues are entirely of moronic planning and government making !

johnmcdnl

ncounties wrote: »

Im 29 and live in Dublin because its a large multicultural city, with lots of jobs, further education opportunities and clubs to enjoy. 20 mins from my house is one of the largest airports in Europe, which means I can go for a city break of a weekend, and not have to take the Friday off. If my company relocated to my hometown, with the same salary and benefits, I would stay in Dublin.

Which is completely understandable. I'm in a fairly similar boat myself and as I said the older I get the more likely it is that I'll never go back.
If however there were 5-10 major employers in my Hometown and more opportunities for a career as s whole it'd have been a lot more likely that I stay there after college even if I didn't have an airport. The region would be more vibrant and attractive to live in long term as a whole. But it isn't, so you have to get on with it. I have worked with some lads though who have managed to get work back in some of the employers mentioned in the tread and they've moved back and bought homes there so I guess there certainly are people out there happy to make the move if the opportunity is there. I know others who would consider doing the same, and of course I also know others who like you would never go back.

I just don't think the issue of one of housing or services that are not perfect is the big issue. Theres plenty's of people from the region that would prefer to live at home with poorer services than having to up sticks and move to Dublin for good. It's simply the lack of opportunity or hope of making a career for yourself in the region thats the reason for it slowly dying.

NIMAN

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

You have to own a car. There's no public transport. No airports. No other big business. Impossible to attract staff. Given the multi national profile of our workforces these days what foreign person in their right mind would want to live there? Oh and it rains twice as much as Dublin.

By that logic then there would be no big companies at all in the West and north west.

And the fact that there is proves that your criteria are incorrect.

Obviously the head honchos at some big companies seem to think they can operate and do well in the arse end of nowhere.

Thelonious Monk

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

You have to own a car. There's no public transport. No airports. No other big business. Impossible to attract staff. Given the multi national profile of our workforces these days what foreign person in their right mind would want to live there? Oh and it rains twice as much as Dublin.

jaysus TM when you're for an agenda no obstacle is too impossible for you

when culchies want modern facilities and jobs you can't throw up problems quickly enough

now, tbf, i asked you to list some things a govt could do to effect a desirable change, and youve done that above.

you just presented them as bizarre impossibilities as opposed to.....things to work on

NIMAN

johnmcdnl wrote: »

Which is completely understandable. I'm in a fairly similar boat myself and as I said the older I get the more likely it is that I'll never go back.
If however there were 5-10 major employers in my Hometown and more opportunities for a career as s whole it'd have been a lot more likely that I stay there after college even if I didn't have an airport. The region would be more vibrant and attractive to live in long term as a whole. But it isn't, so you have to get on with it. I have worked with some lads though who have managed to get work back in some of the employers mentioned in the tread and they've moved back and bought homes there so I guess there certainly are people out there happy to make the move if the opportunity is there. I know others who would consider doing the same, and of course I also know others who like you would never go back.

I just don't think the issue of one of housing or services that are not perfect is the big issue. Theres plenty's of people from the region that would prefer to live at home with poorer services than having to up sticks and move to Dublin for good. It's simply the lack of opportunity or hope of making a career for yourself in the region thats the reason for it slowly dying.

A perfect summation.

Some folk in Ireland simply want Dublin to turn into MegaCity One and us all to move there.

Thelonious Monk

Deleted User wrote: »

jaysus TM when you're for an agenda no obstacle is too impossible for you

when culchies want modern facilities and jobs you can't throw up problems quickly enough

now, tbf, i asked you to list some things a govt could do to effect a desirable change, and youve done that above.

you just presented them as bizarre impossibilities as opposed to.....things to work on

I don't really know what the Gov can do to attract business up there. I don't see how it could be in any way attractive to businesses, I'm just listing reasons why they wouldn't want to go there.

I have to say its fairly dismal to see a thread about rural Ireland's decline as evidenced by EU status so quickly turn into

"ah dem culchies want to live up a hill and get de broadband and de bus to de door five toimes a day de styupid culchies"

the discussion from de culchies lads is quite clearly asking what the government could and should do to offer reasonable prospects of work and a fair social environment without moving to Dublin or the Greater Dublin Vortex.

the condescension and simple lack of understanding about whats being asked is, well as i said, dismal

NIMAN

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I don't really know what the Gov can do to attract business up there. I don't see how it could be in any way attractive to businesses, I'm just listing reasons why they wouldn't want to go there.

Yes your approach is looking at the negatives. Why not look at the positives?

But don't you see, big companies are there now and have been for decades.

I know you can't understand what would take them there, but something did.

And if they decided they could locate there 25, 30, 35 years ago, then there is absolutely no reason why, with political will and incentives, more wouldn't locate there in the future .

The eu obviously think the same and hopefully their focus might bring about the conditions that more might say, " I'll tell you what Donegal/Sligo/Derry/wherever looks like an option ".

But that's not to say that more will still want to be in the capital. That's fair enough too.

Thelonious Monk

I think it's a worldwide trend that people want to live in cities and not in rural areas

Thelonious Monk

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I don't really know what the Gov can do to attract business up there. I don't see how it could be in any way attractive to businesses, I'm just listing reasons why they wouldn't want to go there.

what can the govt do to change this?

you listed a few things so you clearly know what they are.

why continue to respond to the question as if it were about a business making a choice today, as opposed to a govt seeking to improve the situation?

NIMAN

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I think it's a worldwide trend that people want to live in cities and not in rural areas

Maybe so. But not ALL people. How these cities will cope with the numbers in the future will bring it's own issues.

In Ireland, do more people live in cities than not I wonder?
Edit: just googled it. Apparently 2.9 mill live in urban areas out of 4.7mill population

Thelonious Monk

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I think it's a worldwide trend that people want to live in cities and not in rural areas

global warming is a worldwide trend

I'll expect to see you shrugging your shoulders about it when next we meet in a greta thread, shall i?

Thelonious Monk

Deleted User wrote: »

what can the govt do to change this?

you listed a few things so you clearly know what they are.

why continue to respond to the question as if it were about a business making a choice today, as opposed to a govt seeking to improve the situation?

They could somehow try to regenerate some of the towns up there and put some adequate transport links in place? Maybe try and shift people away from dispersed living and back into towns and villages? This might attract more business, but I don't think a large cohort of Irish people want to live like this.

Thelonious Monk

Deleted User wrote: »

global warming is a worldwide trend

I'll expect to see you shrugging your shoulders about it when next we meet in a greta thread, shall i?

I don't know what you mean.