West classified as 'region in decline' by EU

bk

Firblog wrote: »

Companies coming in do not have to provide broadband, they purchase it from telecoms companies who are charging the same no matter what town in Ireland you live; the same goes for electricity and water supply, however the cost of other essentials - eg: office rental would be much less in smaller 'nucleated environments'

Errr... Actually the opposite is the case!

If a new fibre connection needs to be laid, the telecoms companies charge per meter for cable laid. Same if the electricity network needs upgrading for a big company, you are charged per distance, amongst many other charges depending on what you need.

Firblog

CrabRevolution wrote: »

Because that stuff is all great if your comparison is to somewhere with none of those things, but never mind Dublin; Cork and Limerick have all those things and much more apart from cheap houses. The things you list saying they should be drawing businesses to the NE exist in better quantity and quality in other areas, so the number of companies that are left with the NE as their best option is lower.

Really? Have you checked the number of flights available from Cork or Limerick to London? They only have flights to Heathrow, there are more flights available to Luton, Gatwick and Heathrow (and Manchester) everyday from Belfast and consequently larger range / availability of connections from there.

Size of available workforce wouldn't be massively different between Cork/Limerick/Letterkenny, all have University (close) and IT, same power, water, communications suppliers, regulatory framework etc

So what is the 'much more' that they have than Letterkenny and surrounds doesn't? And how do they have what they have in 'better quantiy and quality' as you suggest?

Firblog

bk wrote: »

Errr... Actually the opposite is the case!

If a new fibre connection needs to be laid, the telecoms companies charge per meter for cable laid. Same if the electricity network needs upgrading for a big company, you are charged per distance, amongst many other charges depending on what you need.

Are these charges higher in Urban Letterkenny compared to urban Dublin/Cork/Limerick?

bk

Firblog wrote: »

Are these charges higher in Urban Letterkenny compared to urban Dublin/Cork/Limerick?

Yes, distance to the POP is included in the costs.

Cookiemunster

Firblog wrote: »

Really? Have you checked the number of flights available from Cork or Limerick to London? They only have flights to Heathrow, there are more flights available to Luton, Gatwick and Heathrow (and Manchester) everyday from Belfast and consequently larger range / availability of connections from there.

Size of available workforce wouldn't be massively different between Cork/Limerick/Letterkenny, all have University (close) and IT, same power, water, communications suppliers, regulatory framework etc

So what is the 'much more' that they have than Letterkenny and surrounds doesn't? And how do they have what they have in 'better quantiy and quality' as you suggest?

Are you seriously comparing Letterkenny (20k) to Limerick (100k) and Cork (200k)? The work force sizes are incomparable. Both Cork and Limerick also have a University and an IT actually in the city and an international airport nearby rather than 150kms away in a different jurisdiction.

BTW Shannon and Cork also have connections to other UK and European cities and the US in Shannon's case.

What a bizarre argument.

Firblog

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Are you seriously comparing Letterkenny (20k) to Limerick (100k) and Cork (200k)? The work force sizes are incomparable. Both Cork and Limerick also have a University and an IT actually in the city and an international airport nearby rather than 150kms away in a different jurisdiction.

BTW Shannon and Cork also have connections to other UK and European cities and the US in Shannon's case.

What a bizarre argument.

Firstly I was comparing LK and its hinterland - radius 1 hr drive (population 500K) to both those places.
Cork and shannon airports both only have flights to Heathrow, Cork 4 flights per day, Shannon 2, - Belfast has 9 per day, and each belfast airport has more flights to Europe than Cork or Shannon.
Belfast city airport carries more passangers than either Cork or Shannon Airports, Belfast Int carries nearly 3 times as many passangers as the city airport.
I'm sure there are many places in cork and limerick that would be a good hour from their airports and Universities , LK is 1 hr 50ish away from Belfast. 20 mins to University of Ulster in Derry.

Cookiemunster

Firblog wrote: »

Firstly I was comparing LK and its hinterland - radius 1 hr drive (population 500K) to both those places.
Cork and shannon airports both only have flights to Heathrow, Cork 4 flights per day, Shannon 2, - Belfast has 9 per day, and each belfast airport has more flights to Europe than Cork or Shannon.
Belfast city airport carries more passangers than either Cork or Shannon Airports, Belfast Int carries nearly 3 times as many passangers as the city airport.
I'm sure there are many places in cork and limerick that would be a good hour from their airports and Universities , LK is 1 hr 50ish away from Belfast. 20 mins to University of Ulster in Derry.

Actually Shannon has 3 flights per day to Heathrow with Aer Lingus, twice daily flights to Stanstead and a daily flight to Gatwick with Ryanair. There are also flights to Manchester, Birmingham and Edinburgh.

Belfast obviously has a lot of flights to the UK because it's a major UK regional city and is going to be well linked to London.

Also you obviously don't understand the concept of urbanisation. Limericks 100K and Corks 200k are within 5km-10km of their universities and ITs (and their FDI companies). Their airports are 10-15 mins from the city centers. They are also in the same country. That's what FDI companies are looking for, not small towns that are near a large city (in a different country about to be affected by Brexit). In reality they're more likely to setup in Derry that Letterkenny. That's right, Letterkenny would be in Derrys hinterland (if we're using your definition of a hinterland), not the other way round.

snotboogie

Firblog wrote: »

Firstly I was comparing LK and its hinterland - radius 1 hr drive (population 500K) to both those places.
Cork and shannon airports both only have flights to Heathrow, Cork 4 flights per day, Shannon 2, - Belfast has 9 per day, and each belfast airport has more flights to Europe than Cork or Shannon.
Belfast city airport carries more passangers than either Cork or Shannon Airports, Belfast Int carries nearly 3 times as many passangers as the city airport.
I'm sure there are many places in cork and limerick that would be a good hour from their airports and Universities , LK is 1 hr 50ish away from Belfast. 20 mins to University of Ulster in Derry.

Cork has 9 daily flights to London across four airports in the city; 4 to Heathrow, 3 to Stansted, 1 to Luton and 1 to Gatwick.

I am also almost certain that Cork has more flights to Europe than Belfast City does.

Also Cork overtook Belfast City for passenger numbers in 2019

CrabRevolution

Firblog wrote: »

Firstly I was comparing LK and its hinterland - radius 1 hr drive (population 500K) to both those places.
Cork and shannon airports both only have flights to Heathrow, Cork 4 flights per day, Shannon 2, - Belfast has 9 per day, and each belfast airport has more flights to Europe than Cork or Shannon.
Belfast city airport carries more passangers than either Cork or Shannon Airports, Belfast Int carries nearly 3 times as many passangers as the city airport.
I'm sure there are many places in cork and limerick that would be a good hour from their airports and Universities , LK is 1 hr 50ish away from Belfast. 20 mins to University of Ulster in Derry.

You're just listing the bare minimum that Letterkenny has (and it's pretty dubious to start listing things in Belfast and Derry) and saying it's the equal of Cork.

A company looking to set up in Ireland will do a high level screening first, where Letterkenny might tick the boxes along with Cork and Limerick; Airport/University/ population etc. They might then make it to the next stage of selection.

But then at a more detailed level they'll notice Cork has a University and an IT on its doorstep as well as a university and 3 more ITs in neighbouring counties. They'll see Cork has an airport in Cork instead of 2 hours away. They'll see Cork county has a population of over 500'000 before you even include parts of other counties within an hour's drive.

These factors all add up for a company choosing its new facility.

Sligo eye

CrabRevolution wrote: »

You're just listing the bare minimum that Letterkenny has (and it's pretty dubious to start listing things in Belfast and Derry) and saying it's the equal of Cork.

A company looking to set up in Ireland will do a high level screening first, where Letterkenny might tick the boxes along with Cork and Limerick; Airport/University/ population etc. They might then make it to the next stage of selection.

But then at a more detailed level they'll notice Cork has a University and an IT on its doorstep as well as a university and 3 more ITs in neighbouring counties. They'll see Cork has an airport in Cork instead of 2 hours away. They'll see Cork county has a population of over 500'000 before you even include parts of other counties within an hour's drive.

These factors all add up for a company choosing its new facility.

Letterkenny has Derry Airport about 30 minutes away and Donegal Airport about 35 minutes away.

CrabRevolution

Sligo eye wrote: »

Letterkenny has Derry Airport about 30 minutes away and Donegal Airport about 35 minutes away.

And then when the company looks into it they'll see that the farthest those airports go are london. Then see Cork has dozens of routes all over Europe.

spacetweek

magicbastarder wrote: »

we were in donegal a few years ago, and went to gweedore to try to find a place to stay on spec. drove away again in a huff, the place is an unmitigated disaster.

Yea agreed - I loved Donegal but we drove "through" Gweedore without noticing it. It is an anti-town - there are no streets, no main street, no centre. It's like someone took a town and moved all the buildings out into the surrounding area. Disaster isn't the word.
I also didn't like Letterkenny at all either. Sprawling mess.

CrabRevolution wrote: »

And what jobs can the government create? People love to talk about "moving jobs out of Dublin" but companies can't be forced to move or set up in a given spot.

Yes, this isn't China. The government is very limited in how much control they have over job location, due to reliance on FDI. If you start dictating to companies where they have to locate, they'll go somewhere else.

Firblog

bk wrote: »

Yes, distance to the POP is included in the costs.

I'm not really au fait with the whole physical layout of the national broadband providers, are you saying that there is no POP in Letterkenny? for any of the broadband providers? and therefore the cost incurred by any company wishing to locate in LK would be higher than those encountered by companies locating themselves into other urban areas?

Firblog

CrabRevolution wrote: »

But then at a more detailed level they'll notice Cork has a University and an IT on its doorstep as well as a university and 3 more ITs in neighbouring counties. They'll see Cork has an airport in Cork instead of 2 hours away. They'll see Cork county has a population of over 500'000 before you even include parts of other counties within an hour's drive.

These factors all add up for a company choosing its new facility.

Cork has an airport yup, I suppose we're going to have to agree to disagree on the relative merits of a bigger airport further away as opposed to a smaller airport close at hand.

I'm not really trying to argue that LK is a better place than Limerick/Cork/Dublin or anywhere else to set up an operation in Ireland, I'm highlighting the reality of what it actually has going for it and asking why do people think it (or the area) does not attract more FDI given the positives it has going for it?

Cookiemunster

Firblog wrote: »

Cork has an airport yup, I suppose we're going to have to agree to disagree on the relative merits of a bigger airport further away as opposed to a smaller airport close at hand.

I'm not really trying to argue that LK is a better place than Limerick/Cork/Dublin or anywhere else to set up an operation in Ireland, I'm highlighting the reality of what it actually has going for it and asking why do people think it (or the area) does not attract more FDI given the positives it has going for it?

What you consider positives are actually negatives when it comes to FDI.

They want a large population center with a university and an international airport nearby. Letterkenny can offer none of these things.

The large population center in the area is Derry and even though its in a different country it's more likely to attract FDI because of its size.

Another issue is that its nowhere near a motorway so transporting goods swiftly, especially in todays JIT enviroment, is going to be difficult.

At the end of the day if the companies agreed with your assessment there would already be plenty of FDI in the area.

dubhthach

Firblog wrote: »

I'm not really au fait with the whole physical layout of the national broadband providers, are you saying that there is no POP in Letterkenny? for any of the broadband providers? and therefore the cost incurred by any company wishing to locate in LK would be higher than those encountered by companies locating themselves into other urban areas?

Given the presence of a MAN (Metropolitian Area Network) in Letterkenny and backhaul Fibre provided by both ESB Telecoms and BT I wouldn't imagine it's much worse then say Sligo or Castlebar. Where you might be limited on is stuff like circuit capacity (eg. it's cheaper getting 10Gb/s circuit in Dublin) and providers, some companies might not offer service in LK, important if you have pre-existing arrangements. (I worked for company before that used same provider across 3 countries)

You can zoom in on Letterkenny and see the extent of the MAN here:
https://www.enet.ie/mans-search.html

You can also click to see both Fibre and Wireless backhaul links.

Firblog

Cookiemunster wrote: »

What you consider positives are actually negatives when it comes to FDI.

They want a large population center with a university and an international airport nearby. Letterkenny can offer none of these things.

The large population center in the area is Derry and even though its in a different country it's more likely to attract FDI because of its size.

Another issue is that its nowhere near a motorway so transporting goods swiftly, especially in todays JIT enviroment, is going to be difficult.

At the end of the day if the companies agreed with your assessment there would already be plenty of FDI in the area.

What's nearby? I've had instances when It has taken me more than an hour to get from M50 exit to Nass, and it would be considered to have an international airport 'nearby'



Yes Derry is bigger and has the University, but it is in a different jurisdiction an so does not have access to the big plus of the 12.5% tax rate, its population and university access on the otherhand are available to businesses in LK.


Surely JIT supply chains actually have nothing to do with closeness to motorways? What does it matter how what is required is delivered so long as it is reliable and that the time it will take to get from A to B is known and a timetable / schedule for deliveries can be implemented? an example is windfarms being constructed in the northwest, none of the main components (the really big parts) go near a motorway, they land by ship into Killybegs are are moved by lorry from there to their destination; you could nearly set your watch to the time the convoys would leave Killybegs every Wednesday night a few months ago.

cgcsb

Just to reiterate the current situation to the OP: the CMATS plan was developed for for Cork, the second largest city, where most of the growth is supposed to happen under Ireland 2040. The CMATS plan envisages doing NOTHING to improve transport in the region until 2030. In Galway the plan to improve the bus service has been quietly binned. In Dublin, where a third of the population live, the current infrastructure investment amounts to pelletstown station. If the urban areas of this country are getting 0 or almost 0 investment, it stands to reason that isolated parts will also get 0.

But of course this is not true, we just blew hundreds of millions bypassing the metropolis of New Ross. We're a very rural focused state and urban dwellers will soon get tired of this set up.

Always Tired

The Northwest is a total joke when it comes to jobs, public transport, and yet somehow people are still experiencing some of the issues with accommodation being scarce and expensive.

Anyone trying to big up Letterkenny as an attractive town to either workers or companies probably hasn't spent much time in it or looked for work or accommodation there. It's one long dingy street with a few hotels and takeaways, high street clothes shops, basically the same as any other small Donegal town just that it goes on for another half mile than the rest of them. The accommodation available isnt attractive to young professionals either

I used to live in Donegal town and tried to find work in Letterkenny, but it was impossible to work out without a car. The earliest bus didnt get you there until nearly 10 the latest bus left at 7. So even some of the US offices that worked on a later schedule were unfeasible, along with the Irish ones that started at normal time.

Even if you were driving there has been perpetual roadworks going on forever that cause a lot of delays. And that's the only thing about LK would make you mistake it for a proper city.

markodaly

MrAbyss wrote: »

these killed their own counties by fleeing once nice towns and villages for an acre of land in the middle of nowhere.


then complained they are isolated!

This.

We have the 'myth' that rural Ireland is dying because rural people are leaving small towns and villages and moving to one off houses built on some road in ballygobackwards.
Yet, this is the fault of non-rural people?

Its like the post offices. If people actually used them, they wouldn't have to close.

This problem is decades in the making and is the result of bad planning decissions going back decades.
The advent of the car and its use in rural Ireland was the wake up call.
Everyone in rural Ireland has a car so they will travel to the nearest big town to do their bits and pieces, rather then go down the road to the village, because why would they? They have a car and its much easier for them.

In other words, rural people need to wake up and change the ways they settle and built houses. The solutions are all there.
No.1 A straight off ban on one off houses. (maybe the odd exception for farmers)
No.2 Build only within 1km radius of a town or village.

If we did that for a few decades, many of the problems would sort itself out.
People just want their cake and eat it.

markodaly

markodaly wrote: »

This.

This problem is decades in the making and is the result of bad planning decissions going back decades.

In other words, rural people need to wake up and change the ways they settle and built houses. The solutions are all there.
No.1 A straight off ban on one off houses. (maybe the odd exception for farmers)
No.2 Build only within 1km radius of a town or village.

If we did that for a few decades, many of the problems would sort itself out.
People just want their cake and eat it.

I think most of what you said can be also applied the current urban sprawl in Dublin and the people living there. People wanting there 3 bed semi's with a garden instead of living in high rise apartments as they should be. There should be a ban on all low rise building in Dublin.

If we did that for a few decades maybe the problems would sort itself out. People just want their cake and eat it.

But back to the original point of a lack of infrastructure for the Northwest, just look have a quick look at the spread of motorway in the country. They stop Nprth of Galway and east of Mullingar. Almost a third of the country has no motorway service. A very minimum the M17 should be continued to Derry and the M4 to Sligo. An adequate road infrastructure is a minimum for economic development. Considering the EU is willing to pay far a part of this it makes sense for their to be at least a road map for its completion.

RandomViewer

Deleted User wrote: »

I think most of what you said can be also applied the current urban sprawl in Dublin and the people living there. People wanting there 3 bed semi's with a garden instead of living in high rise apartments as they should be. There should be a ban on all low rise building in Dublin.

If people did that for a few decades maybe the problems would sort itself out. People just want their cake and eat it.

But back to the original point of a lack of infrastructure for the Northwest, just look have a quick look at the spread of motorway in the country. They stop Nprth of Galway and east of Mullingar. Almost a third of the country has no motorway service. A very minimum the M17 should be continued to Derry and the M4 to Sligo. An adequate road infrastructure is a minimum for economic development. Considering the EU is willing to pay far a part of this it makes sense for their to be at least a road map for its completion.

A5 far more important than m17 ,

RandomViewer

RandomViewer wrote: »

A5 far more important than m17 ,

They both are important. Anybody travelling from the south, midwest or west travelling North will be using the M17. People avoid that trip because of the road. The same with me travelling to Belfast, the road through sligo and Leitrim to the border and on to Enniskillen is absolutely atrocious, at best its a tourist road with all the 90 degree bends included.

Not great for cross border trade, for towns like Sligo, Derry, Enniskillen, Letterkenny or anybody travelling to those destinations. All good routes head to Dublin and then North to Belfast. The Northwest is to be avoided at all costs if you want to improve your chances of staying between the ditches.

Multinationals transporting product have the same opinions of the national roads in this region. Unless your going direct South east to Dublin or south forget about it.

RandomViewer

Always Tired wrote: »

The Northwest is a total joke when it comes to jobs, public transport, and yet somehow people are still experiencing some of the issues with accommodation being scarce and expensive.

Anyone trying to big up Letterkenny as an attractive town to either workers or companies probably hasn't spent much time in it or looked for work or accommodation there. It's one long dingy street with a few hotels and takeaways, high street clothes shops, basically the same as any other small Donegal town just that it goes on for another half mile than the rest of them. The accommodation available isnt attractive to young professionals either

I used to live in Donegal town and tried to find work in Letterkenny, but it was impossible to work out without a car. The earliest bus didnt get you there until nearly 10 the latest bus left at 7. So even some of the US offices that worked on a later schedule were unfeasible, along with the Irish ones that started at normal time.

Even if you were driving there has been perpetual roadworks going on forever that cause a lot of delays. And that's the only thing about LK would make you mistake it for a proper city.

Anyone who doesnt own a car has no errand living in Donegal, what kind of bizarre childhood did you have when you never managed to drive. You put down Letterkenny wrongly in my opinion, jobs and accommodation are available but employers expect workers not whiners

nthclare

magicbastarder wrote: »

how much does the non-nucleated nature of much of the irish population spread in rural areas play into this?

Everyone is taxed the same, so pick a straw they'll all be the same length.

We all just have to suck it up.

Sluuurppp

cgcsb

Deleted User wrote: »

I think most of what you said can be also applied the current urban sprawl in Dublin and the people living there. People wanting there 3 bed semi's with a garden instead of living in high rise apartments as they should be. There should be a ban on all low rise building in Dublin.

If we did that for a few decades maybe the problems would sort itself out. People just want their cake and eat it.

But back to the original point of a lack of infrastructure for the Northwest, just look have a quick look at the spread of motorway in the country. They stop Nprth of Galway and east of Mullingar. Almost a third of the country has no motorway service. A very minimum the M17 should be continued to Derry and the M4 to Sligo. An adequate road infrastructure is a minimum for economic development. Considering the EU is willing to pay far a part of this it makes sense for their to be at least a road map for its completion.

I'm sorry but the rural Ireland motorway scheme is about done, not another penny for full spec motorways to nowhere. The current M17 was a massive open spec.

The parts if this country where people actually live have the worst public transport service in Europe.

kippy

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

You have a city and region which has a relatively dense population and all the benefits that brings to companies wishing to locate somewhere, and then you have places like Donegal which looks like someone just jizzed a load of bungalows all over the landscape with zero planning or thought put into it.
How is any kind of industry supposed to thrive in dispersed poorly serviced areas, and how are you supposed to service these areas when no one wants to live in towns or villages?

Who gets the blame for the situation then?

cgcsb

nthclare wrote: »

Everyone is taxed the same, so pick a straw they'll all be the same length.

We all just have to suck it up.

Sluuurppp

Exactly everyone is taxed the same, well except farmers. So the apartment building housing 500 tax payers obviously requires a greater investment the the 10km stretch of road housing 5 families.

Thelonious Monk

kippy wrote: »

Who gets the blame for the situation then?

County councils, the poor planning culture that exists in Ireland, and I suppose the fact that everyone wants to live in a big house on a big piece of land away from other houses is to blame too

Thelonious Monk

cgcsb wrote: »

Exactly everyone is taxed the same, well except farmers. So the apartment building housing 500 tax payers obviously requires a greater investment the the 10km stretch of road housing 5 families.

Isn't property tax a lot dearer in cities than rural Ireland?

magicbastarder

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

County councils, the poor planning culture that exists in Ireland, and I suppose the fact that everyone wants to live in a big house on a big piece of land away from other houses is to blame too

i know quite a few people who get excited at the prospect of buying a ride on lawnmower. the notion of needing or wanting to own one would fill me with dread.

snotboogie

magicbastarder wrote: »

i know quite a few people who get excited at the prospect of buying a ride on lawnmower. the notion of needing or wanting to own one would fill me with dread.

Just heard a guy on the radio, living in "de country 10 minutes outside Ballincollig" (his own words) incredulous that people actually living in Ballincollig were getting preference for school places in the town over his child. "No joined up thinking" was his conclusion. So he doesn't want to live in the town (as he called it, it's actually a suburb) but wants all the benefits from there, and no doubt from Cork City too, anyway.

Balf

snotboogie wrote: »

Just heard a guy on the radio, living in "de country 10 minutes outside Ballincollig" (his own words) incredulous that people actually living in Ballincollig were getting preference for school places in the town over his child. "No joined up thinking" was his conclusion. So he doesn't want to live in the town (as he called it, it's actually a suburb) but wants all the benefits from there, and no doubt from Cork City too, anyway.

It goes with a certain attitude.

"If the Council gave me planning permission in 1998, they were simultaneously making an eternal commitment on behalf of the Irish people to provide me with any service I should ever need."

And you're right. That guy is the one lacking the joined up thinking.