Fixing Draughts around pipes in home

MickyBoi

Just looking for some help with Draught proofing my house. First big one is in the hot press upstairs. There is 3 pipes comin down from the attic for the water tank and gas boiler. The holes that was cut in the ceiling is a lot bigger than the pipes and there is a very noticeable breeze coming down. What would be the best solution to fix this?
Next is in behind the cuboards. The gas pipes coming in to the house. It's an awkward spot to get into. Looks like a lump was taking out of the wall for the pipes coming in and a bit of plywood is stuck over it.. There is a serious wind coming in beind the plywood.. Not sure what to do about this.. Its a timber frame house. I have tried stuffing the hole with an old tshirt and duct taping aroud it. It helped a little bit no much. Can find breese coming out over top of washing machine and under cooker.. Its annoying as the kitchen seems to go cold very quickly once heat is off.. Any tips would be much appreciated. Thanks

seamus

Sealing up the holes helps with draft, but it won't necessarily make it a lot warmer.

In our old kitchen, the units under the window were attached to the bare blockwork. I sealed up where the pipes entered the house in the back wall, so there was no draft, but like you I noticed as soon as the heating was off on a cold day/night, that end of the kitchen would get really cold really quickly.

Sealing up the holes will help stop the drafts, but you also need to insulate.

The attic one seems like it should be pretty straightforward. Get a piece of plywood or plasterboard and cut it so that it's about 100mm bigger than the actual hole in both directions. Cut it in half, cut out matching notches on both halves for the pipes, and then fit it together around the pipes. If you want you can use caulk to seal it down, but that's probably overkill, you don't even need to screw it in place. Then get some attic insulation place it on top.

The kitchen one probably not much you can do without pulling stuff out. Making sure the wall is sealed up outside would at least help.

MickyBoi

seamus wrote: »

Sealing up the holes helps with draft, but it won't necessarily make it a lot warmer.

In our old kitchen, the units under the window were attached to the bare blockwork. I sealed up where the pipes entered the house in the back wall, so there was no draft, but like you I noticed as soon as the heating was off on a cold day/night, that end of the kitchen would get really cold really quickly.

Sealing up the holes will help stop the drafts, but you also need to insulate.

The attic one seems like it should be pretty straightforward. Get a piece of plywood or plasterboard and cut it so that it's about 100mm bigger than the actual hole in both directions. Cut it in half, cut out matching notches on both halves for the pipes, and then fit it together around the pipes. If you want you can use caulk to seal it down, but that's probably overkill, you don't even need to screw it in place. Then get some attic insulation place it on top.

The kitchen one probably not much you can do without pulling stuff out. Making sure the wall is sealed up outside would at least help.

Thanks for your reply.. Will try that for the hotpress upstairs.. Cant see anything from outside.. Its like the pipes are coming up through the cavity and out into the kitchen..

LenWoods

MickyBoi wrote: »

Thanks for your reply.. Will try that for the hotpress upstairs.. Cant see anything from outside.. Its like the pipes are coming up through the cavity and out into the kitchen..

A can of unibond WhiteTec expanding foam may help the situation in the kitchen
I suggest that brand specific as its four times denser than standard expanding foam,
The long hose design may also help with access and the foam will fill from the inside out, can be cut with a bread knife after 2-3 hours,

Ive used bathroom silicone to seal around cables and pipes which enter down from the attic space; I went inside the attic and sealed around the ceiling light cables and cavity walls where the cables pass down to sockets,
Also sealed inside the kitchen sockets as theres PVC conduit in the walls containing the cables; air passes down through the conduit from the ceiling carrying a breeze in to the room; not much but it all contributes

Bathroom silicone is easily removed should the need ever arise to do so; the foam is also removable and very workable but more suited to the large gap areas.

Hope this helps.

listermint

Use expanding foam and then once set cut it back and use draught tape over it.

Expanding foam is not air tight it has a role in filling gaps the airtight tape does the real work.

Stopping draughts is a large part of stopping heat loss

GreeBo

It doesn't need to be air tight to stop a draft though...?

listermint

GreeBo wrote: »

It doesn't need to be air tight to stop a draft though...?

It does to stop air transfer yes.

Yellow_Fern

GreeBo wrote: »

It doesn't need to be air tight to stop a draft though...?

More airtight the less draught but many people would accept a bit of air seepage.

GreeBo

listermint wrote: »

It does to stop air transfer yes.

Yeah but there is no point in adding sir tight tape over some expending foam if none of the rest of the house is airtight.

listermint

GreeBo wrote: »

Yeah but there is no point in adding sir tight tape over some expending foam if none of the rest of the house is airtight.

There 100% is. You close the gaps as you go. It's inexpensive and a sound plan to fix the problems around your house as you find them.

I don't get your negatively tbh is it just for the crack ? Should we always just accept half measures .

I'm a do it right and do it once person .

Markcheese

Might be worth looking at the outside of your house too, if there's that much of a breeze coming through the inside leaf of the wall, then there is probably a corresponding gap on the outside ...

GreeBo

listermint wrote: »

There 100% is. You close the gaps as you go. It's inexpensive and a sound plan to fix the problems around your house as you find them.

I don't get your negatively tbh is it just for the crack ? Should we always just accept half measures .

I'm a do it right and do it once person .

Im sorry but there 100% isn't. The foam is closing the gaps.

Take the previous poster who had bare walls behind his kitchen units.
Making the 0.000001% of his wall surface airtight with some tape is going to have zero impact on his comfort levels within the house.

If your house is passive or A1 rated then obviously ignoring *any* opening/draft is an issue, but otherwise doing anything more than foaming the gaps is pointless overkill.

Its not negativity, its reality and trying to save the OP from wasting his time with airtight tape when lashing in some foam will achieve >99% of the result he wants.

By your own argument "do it right and do it once" would mean ripping the house asunder to get it all airtight or stumping up for EWI.

Adding some tape to a miniscule percentage of the house envelope isnt achieving anything.

MicktheMan

Markcheese wrote: »

Might be worth looking at the outside of your house too, if there's that much of a breeze coming through the inside leaf of the wall, then there is probably a corresponding gap on the outside ...

It won't as the cavity is considered "outside" from an airtight pov.

MicktheMan

GreeBo wrote: »

Im sorry but there 100% isn't. The foam is closing the gaps.

Take the previous poster who had bare walls behind his kitchen units.
Making the 0.000001% of his wall surface airtight with some tape is going to have zero impact on his comfort levels within the house.

If your house is passive or A1 rated then obviously ignoring *any* opening/draft is an issue, but otherwise doing anything more than foaming the gaps is pointless overkill.

Its not negativity, its reality and trying to save the OP from wasting his time with airtight tape when lashing in some foam will achieve >99% of the result he wants.

By your own argument "do it right and do it once" would mean ripping the house asunder to get it all airtight or stumping up for EWI.

Adding some tape to a miniscule percentage of the house envelope isnt achieving anything.

I really hope that anybody reading this does not take what you are saying seriously. Airtightness is tackled one weakness at a time irrespective of how airtight or not the house is to begin with.

listermint

GreeBo wrote: »

Im sorry but there 100% isn't. The foam is closing the gaps.

Take the previous poster who had bare walls behind his kitchen units.
Making the 0.000001% of his wall surface airtight with some tape is going to have zero impact on his comfort levels within the house.

If your house is passive or A1 rated then obviously ignoring *any* opening/draft is an issue, but otherwise doing anything more than foaming the gaps is pointless overkill.

Its not negativity, its reality and trying to save the OP from wasting his time with airtight tape when lashing in some foam will achieve >99% of the result he wants.

By your own argument "do it right and do it once" would mean ripping the house asunder to get it all airtight or stumping up for EWI.

Adding some tape to a miniscule percentage of the house envelope isnt achieving anything.

Evidently you should stop now..

It's better for everyone.

blackbox

MicktheMan wrote: »

I really hope that anybody reading this does not take what you are saying seriously. Airtightness is tackled one weakness at a time irrespective of how airtight or not the house is to begin with.

You're right in one way but I would prefer GreeBo's approach.

I think it is best to focus your effort (and resources) on the actions that will give the greatest reward. When the major problems are resolved you can try to get that final few percent.

listermint

blackbox wrote: »

You're right in one way but I would prefer GreeBo's approach.

I think it is best to focus your effort (and resources) on the actions that will give the greatest reward. When the major problems are resolved you can try to get that final few percent.

He didn't have an approach. The approach was do nothing it's a waste of time.

That's not an approach. And it's not good advice if your goal is to improve overall envelope of your home over time.

Picture a scenario where people are not in a position to drop 20k on ewi or move into a 300k plus passive home. Then you might be starting our from a reasoned argument.


Helpful ....?


It's a DIY forum some people seem to forget that.

MicktheMan

blackbox wrote: »

I think it is best to focus your effort (and resources) on the actions that will give the greatest reward. When the major problems are resolved you can try to get that final few percent.

That's the point really. Lack of air tightness is THE major heat loss mechanism in the majority of Irish houses and should be given priority to tackle first. And, funnily enough, it is the one area where basic diy skills will go a long way in addressing. What's missing, imo, is the experience of the actual air tightness test.

I'll give an example; a 2 bed apartment (freezing) tested to be >10M3/hr/m2 @50Pa which is pretty bad. About 2/3rds of one single major weakness sorted in a day by a diy'er with the right materials. Re-test showed a massive 41% reduction in the leakage rate. the goal is to achieve <1m3/hr/m2 @50Pa. Is this realistic? Yes. And there is already a noticeable difference in the comfort level (including a massive drop off in street noise) of the occupants.

GreeBo

MicktheMan wrote: »

That's the point really. Lack of air tightness is THE major heat loss mechanism in the majority of Irish houses and should be given priority to tackle first. And, funnily enough, it is the one area where basic diy skills will go a long way in addressing. What's missing, imo, is the experience of the actual air tightness test.

I'll give an example; a 2 bed apartment (freezing) tested to be >10M3/hr/m2 @50Pa which is pretty bad. About 2/3rds of one single major weakness sorted in a day by a diy'er with the right materials. Re-test showed a massive 41% reduction in the leakage rate. the goal is to achieve <1m3/hr/m2 @50Pa. Is this realistic? Yes. And there is already a noticeable difference in the comfort level (including a massive drop off in street noise) of the occupants.

What was the difference between air tightness after the gaps were foamed but before the tape was added over the foam?

Thats the point I am making, not that you shouldnt do anything about air leaks.

GreeBo

listermint wrote: »

He didn't have an approach. The approach was do nothing it's a waste of time.

That's not an approach. And it's not good advice if your goal is to improve overall envelope of your home over time.

Picture a scenario where people are not in a position to drop 20k on ewi or move into a 300k plus passive home. Then you might be starting our from a reasoned argument.


Helpful ....?


It's a DIY forum some people seem to forget that.

"Do nothing"?
Where exactly did I say to do nothing?
I said that foaming was enough in the situation where you dont have or are aiming for passive house.

Talk about misrepresentation!

Unless you are expecting the OP do cover his entire house in airtight tape "over-time" then adding air tight tape over any gaps that you have just foamed is not an economic use of time or money as the difference is negligible.

BTW, the foam that was recommended has the following specification:
Air permeability
PN-EN 1026:2001
0,02 m³/
(h·m·daPa²/³)
Test conditions: 1020 Pa

listermint

GreeBo wrote: »

"Do nothing"?
Where exactly did I say to do nothing?
I said that foaming was enough in the situation where you dont have or are aiming for passive house.

Talk about misrepresentation!

Unless you are expecting the OP do cover his entire house in airtight tape "over-time" then adding air tight tape over any gaps that you have just foamed is not an economic use of time or money as the difference is negligible.

BTW, the foam that was recommended has the following specification:
Air permeability
PN-EN 1026:2001
0,02 m³/
(h·m·daPa²/³)
Test conditions: 1020 Pa

It is though. Foam isn't airtight or designed to be. Putting tape over foam has a negligible difference in time but a large difference in airtightness


You are acting the Mick. Excuse the pun mick.

GreeBo

listermint wrote: »

It is though. Foam isn't airtight or designed to be. Putting tape over foam has a negligible difference in time but a large difference in airtightness


You are acting the Mick. Excuse the pun mick.

0,02 m³/
(h·m·daPa²/³)
Test conditions: 1020 Pa
If your entire house was simply made of this foam you would probably have the worlds most airtight house...but you keep banging that drum.

FlipperThePriest

GreeBo wrote: »

0,02 m³/
(h·m·daPa²/³)
Test conditions: 1020 Pa
If your entire house was simply made of this foam you would probably have the worlds most airtight house...but you keep banging that drum.

That technical data is not really relevant. Reason being is that it's the skin of expanding foam that hardens to form the seal, in the data you've referred to. Once you shave it or shape it to match the surface where you've applied it, you're cutting through to what's porous underneath.

GreeBo

zippy84 wrote: »

That technical data is not really relevant. Reason being is that it's the skin of expanding foam that hardens to form the seal, in the data you've referred to. Once you shave it or shape it to match the surface where you've applied it, you're cutting through to what's porous underneath.

There is skin on both sides so even if that was an issue you wouldn't be cutting into both sides of the foam.
That particular form contains closed cells so it's not just the skin that is providing the air barrier, is the material itself.

Also there is no need to cut it to shape if you apply it correctly, in more than one bead and by wetting the skin to stop expansion and allow you to form the exposed skin to whatever shape you want.

Lumen

My experience of sealing leaks in suspended floors in my house is that if you reduce the permeable area you will get a lot higher air speed through the remaining smaller hole. I don't know whether the total air movement is the same (probably not, as there's more friction), I reckon it's warmer but feels more draughty.

Still, that at least gives you something to work with. It's much easier locating a couple of small, high speed leaks than a large area of permeability.

As far as leaky bulk materials go, it's not the best idea to go for a winter hike in a leaky woolly jumper, but I'd rather do that than in a t-shirt. Do whatever you can with the access you have.

listermint

Lumen wrote: »

My experience of sealing leaks in suspended floors in my house is that if you reduce the permeable area you will get a lot higher air speed through the remaining smaller hole. I don't know whether the total air movement is the same (probably not, as there's more friction), I reckon it's warmer but feels more draughty.

Still, that at least gives you something to work with. It's much easier locating a couple of small, high speed leaks than a large area of permeability.

As far as leaky bulk materials go, it's not the best idea to go for a winter hike in a leaky woolly jumper, but I'd rather do that than in a t-shirt. Do whatever you can with the access you have.

Which basically makes the case for airtight tape use over foam.

And greebo seemingly agrees .


Lol

ROS123

Any idea where one would seek expert help on Air tightness for 30 year old bungalow.. South Kildare

Yellow_Fern

ROS123 wrote: »

Any idea where one would seek expert help on Air tightness for 30 year old bungalow.. South Kildare

I pmed you

Quango Unchained

Not sure what the deal is with commenting on an old thread but I have the same query regarding sealing gaps in attic and under kitchen sink.

There are some uninsulated copper pipes coming up through the hot press, with large gaps around them.

I happen to have a can of the Unibond Whiteteq mentioned earlier lying around but when I read the dire warnings on the back, it seems like this stuff should be illegal and not kept in the house! May cause cancer and explosions! Transport in boot of car rather than inside car etc.

For the hot press pipes, I take it I should first put some pipe insulation sleeves on them? There's room for the pipe + sleeve to fit through the gaps. How best do I then fill the gaps without using foam? Apart from its cancerous explosiveness, I think I would find it extremely messy to use.

There are also some other gaps that need filling above built in wardrobes etc.