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2020 US Presidential Election (aka: The Trump Coronation)
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That's the funny thing about words, when taken out of context they can seem to be racist and xenophobic, completely devoid of the context in which they were originally spoken.
The quote above was from Sir Roger Scruton. He was invited to a long-form audio interview with a British left leaning publication "The New Statesmen".
It wasn't until three months later that they were forced to retract how 'racist' it was and issue an apology to Scruton because a rival newspaper had also obtained a copy of the audio.
And so please provide the defending context for why calling foodies f****ts is not homophobic, or how mocking “black doods playing call of duty” is not racist. Perhaps even context for how the proposed “didn’t do muffin” is equally not racist? Your context please, since context is so very important.0 -
That's the funny thing about words, when taken out of context they can seem to be racist and xenophobic, completely devoid of the context in which they were originally spoken.
The quote above was from Sir Roger Scruton. He was invited to a long-form audio interview with a British left leaning publication "The New Statesmen".
It wasn't until three months later that they were forced to retract how 'racist' it was and issue an apology to Scruton because a rival newspaper had also obtained a copy of the audio.
what does this have to do with massive racist Blake Neff? the man who was too racist even for tucker carlson.0 -
And so please provide the defending context for why calling foodies f****ts is not homophobic, or how mocking “black doods playing call of duty” is not racist. Perhaps even context for how the proposed “didn’t do muffin” is equally not racist? Your context please, since context is so very important.
I have no idea. But surely he could have been replying to another comment, or said something in the past that would change the meaning of many of things that he has said, just like with Scruton's comment.
I'm eagerly awaiting tomorrow night's show. I may stop watching it after that; the height of hypocrisy to give into cancel culture while professing to be against it.
If it's possible why the witch hunt? Apparently these were the worst offending things he said after being on this forum for years.0 -
I have no idea. But surely he could have been replying to another comment, or said something in the past that would change the meaning of many of things that he has said, just like with Scruton's comment.
I'm eagerly awaiting tomorrow night's show. I may stop watching it after that; the height of hypocrisy to give into cancel culture while professing to be against it.
If it's possible why the witch hunt?
what you call "cancel culture" others call accepting the consequences of being a massive racist.0 -
ohnonotgmail wrote: »what you call "cancel culture" others call accepting the consequences of being a massive racist.
Tell that to Bret Weinstein.0 -
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I have no idea. But surely he could have been replying to another comment, or said something in the past that would change the meaning of many of things that he has said, just like with Scruton's comment.
I'm eagerly awaiting tomorrow night's show. I may stop watching it after that; the height of hypocrisy to give into cancel culture while professing to be against it.
If it's possible why the witch hunt? Apparently these were the worst offending things he said after being on this forum for years.
Oh now you have “no idea” :pac: but earlier you were clear and unambiguous:Edmond Halley once predicted a comet would arrive at a certain time and place based on his calculations. It wasn't for anyone else to prove how wrong he was(they could claim it all they liked). You see how it's impossible for them to disprove until the comet arrives?
Claims work easier if the person making them provides some evidence for them and provides an explanation.
What you've linked to doesn't prove that anyone is a 'far right racist troll'. So where did you get that from?
BBC has called them "racist messages"
CNN has said "racist and sexist remarks"
The NYT says "abhorrent posts"
Guardian says "racist and sexist comments"
Wapo says "Racist and sexist posts"
Could anyone be so kind as to explain exactly how these are racist comments? Abbhorent? yes, disgusting? yes, vile? yes, racist? no, sexist? no, homophobic? no. Perhaps with more context it could be as such, but those stand alone comments mean very little without context.
Have we learned no lessons from the Roger Scruton affair where the New Statesmen was forced to issue a retraction after the infamous "Every chinese person is a sort of replica of the next one".
Did they really warrant a coordinated campaign by the legacy media?
I've seen worse from moderators on boards; I guess they'll be coming for you guys next.
Are you now withdrawing these statements? Now you have “no idea” whether they were racist, or sexist, or homophobic? Really now which is it. Pick a lane and don’t bull**** us.0 -
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ohnonotgmail wrote: »what does he have to do with massive racist Blake Neff?
Racist sexist and homophobe*0 -
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It should be noted, however, that he was a one term President, and had the good sense to wait until after his failed election to do it.
Definitely. a trust issue here. Stone couldn't afford to wait until after the election to spill the beans on Trump. Would anyone on here trust Trump to bail you out if you didn't have a hold over him?0 -
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If that's what he's saying his comment makes little sense. If you mean he is being racist against Asians.
This is annoying. The quote in question is anti black and I assume you you know it, since you are at least smart enough to be able to write.
He was asked if he would get surgery for a black doctor for 50% off. He replied he wouldn't get it off an Asian one for free, so no.
This post is for the benefit of other posters who might not be familiar with the subject matter.0 -
The Trump legacy according to the Lincoln Project.0
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Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »Is he the poster who asked for evidence once on one of these threads and when it was posted they admitted to not reading the evidence and said they only asked for it to waste another pisters time?
No that was ExMachina1000, FTR. The nexus of that exchange is around and about post #82170 -
Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »Are you really that naive?
Are you naive enough to believe they are?
Are any of us?0 -
Kidchameleon wrote: »AFAIK, he inherited 1 million dollars. Most people who inherit a sum like that end up p1ssing it up against the wall. Trump turned it into several billion dollars. That was no accident. I would imagine inheriting his fathers genes and business acumen was more important than any amount of cash he might have received.
Only logging into this now but I am sure someone has actually enlightened you that Donald was lying and in fact he received closer to USD62m from his father
and for all we know he has blown it all hence the tax returns not being released0 -
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Kidchameleon wrote: »Have you got a link to back that up?
do you have a link to backup your claim that he only received 1M?0 -
ohnonotgmail wrote: »do you have a link to backup your claim that he only received 1M?
I specifically said "AFAIK, he inherited 1million". Go back, look at the post. I did not state it as fact. So no, I don't have a link because I don't know for sure myself. kilns on the other hand has stated, as fact, that President Trump "lied" about his inheritance and that he received circa "62m". If kilns has proof of this claim then great, we are all closer to the truth. If kilns does not have proof then it would be another example of Trump derangement syndrome.0 -
Kidchameleon wrote: »Have you got a link to back that up?
There are numerous articles on it, just google. When he was a toddler he was already receiving a huge salary from his father
In total he has received USD413m in todays money from his father. I would be fairly confident his net worth now would not even match this.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/02/us/politics/donald-trump-wealth-fred-trump.html0 -
Kidchameleon wrote: »I specifically said "AFAIK, he inherited 1million". Go back, look at the post. I did not state it as fact. So no, I don't have a link because I don't know for sure myself. kilns on the other hand has stated, as fact, that President Trump "lied" about his inheritance and that he received circa "62m". If kilns has proof of this claim then great, we are all closer to the truth. If kilns does not have proof then it would be another example of Trump derangement syndrome.
My USD62m was one of the amounts he received but as explained above by some fine investigative journalists, the real figure makes that look like peanuts and Trumps real claim look even more laughable.
You look at the man and the only way someone like him becomes someone like he has become is by getting a huge leg up financially in life, people laugh at him and people are wary of doing business with him0 -
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Kidchameleon wrote: »I specifically said "AFAIK, he inherited 1million". Go back, look at the post. I did not state it as fact. So no, I don't have a link because I don't know for sure myself. kilns on the other hand has stated, as fact, that President Trump "lied" about his inheritance and that he received circa "62m". If kilns has proof of this claim then great, we are all closer to the truth. If kilns does not have proof then it would be another example of Trump derangement syndrome.
so you pulled the figure from your arse. not surprising.0 -
ohnonotgmail wrote: »so you pulled the figure from your arse. not surprising.
That's one way to put it :pac:There are numerous articles on it, just google. When he was a toddler he was already receiving a huge salary from his father
In total he has received USD413m in todays money from his father. I would be fairly confident his net worth now would not even match this.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/02/us/politics/donald-trump-wealth-fred-trump.html
That article is behind a paywall.0 -
Kidchameleon wrote: »That's one way to put it :pac:
That article is behind a paywall.
just for you.........
Donald J. Trump built a business empire and won the presidency proclaiming himself a self-made billionaire, and he has long insisted that his father, the legendary New York City builder Fred C. Trump, provided almost no financial help. “I built what I built myself,” the president has repeatedly said.
But an investigation by The New York Times has revealed that Donald Trump received the equivalent today of at least $413 million from his father’s real estate empire. What’s more, much of this money came to Mr. Trump through dubious tax schemes he participated in during the 1990s, including instances of outright fraud, The Times found.
In all, the president’s parents transferred well over $1 billion in wealth to their children, which could have produced a tax bill of at least $550 million under the 55 percent tax rate on gifts and inheritances that was in place at the time. Helped by a variety of tax dodges, the Trumps paid $52.2 million, or about 5 percent, tax returns show.
The president declined requests over several weeks to comment for this article.
A lawyer for Mr. Trump, Charles J. Harder, provided a written statement. “There was no fraud or tax evasion by anyone. The facts upon which The Times bases its false allegations are extremely inaccurate,” he said. “President Trump had virtually no involvement whatsoever with these matters,” he continued, saying the president had delegated those tasks to relatives and tax professionals. “The affairs were handled by other Trump family members who were not experts themselves and therefore relied entirely upon the aforementioned licensed professionals to ensure full compliance with the law.”
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[Read the full statement]
In a statement on behalf of the Trump family, the president’s brother, Robert Trump, said, “All appropriate gift and estate tax returns were filed, and the required taxes were paid.”
Since Donald Trump first refused to release his income tax returns, his campaign and then his presidency have been suffused with questions about the extent and sources of his wealth, questions that have only intensified with the Russia investigation. The Times’s new reporting reveals little about his recent business dealings. But the investigation — based on a vast trove of confidential tax returns and financial records, and at more than 13,000 words one of the longest investigative articles ever published in The Times — offers the first comprehensive examination of the inherited fortune and tax dodges that guaranteed Mr. Trump a gilded life.
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Here are some key takeaways.
The Trumps’ tax maneuvers show a pattern of deception, tax experts say
The line between legal tax avoidance and illegal tax evasion is often murky, and there is no shortage of clever tax-avoidance tricks that have been blessed by either the courts or the Internal Revenue Service itself; the wealthiest Americans rarely pay anything close to full freight. The Trumps’ tax maneuvers met with little resistance from the I.R.S., The Times found.
But tax experts briefed on The Times’s findings said the Trumps appeared to have done more than exploit legal loopholes. They said the conduct described here represented a pattern of deception and obfuscation that repeatedly prevented the I.R.S. from taxing large transfers of wealth to Fred Trump’s children.
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Donald Trump began reaping wealth from his father’s real estate empire as a toddler
In Donald Trump’s version of how he got rich, he was the master dealmaker who broke free from his father’s “tiny” Brooklyn and Queens real estate operation and built a $10 billion empire that would slap the Trump name on hotels, high-rises, casinos and golf courses the world over.
ImageMr. Trump in 1982 atop Trump Tower, a Manhattan skyscraper that his father’s money helped build and that established him as a major player in New York.
Mr. Trump in 1982 atop Trump Tower, a Manhattan skyscraper that his father’s money helped build and that established him as a major player in New York.Credit...Fred R. Conrad/The New York Times
But The Times’s investigation makes clear that in every era of Mr. Trump’s life, his finances were deeply entwined with, and dependent on, his father’s wealth. By age 3, he was earning $200,000 a year in today’s dollars from his father’s empire. He was a millionaire by age 8. In his 40s and 50s, he was receiving more than $5 million a year.
There was a clear pattern to this largess: When his son began expensive new projects, Fred Trump increased his help. In the late 1970s, when Donald Trump crossed the river into the glittering precincts of Manhattan — converting the old Commodore Hotel near Grand Central Terminal into a Grand Hyatt — his father opened a spigot of loans. When he made his first forays into Atlantic City casinos a few years later, his father devised a plan to sharply increase the flow of aid.
That ‘small loan’ of $1 million was actually at least $60.7 million — much of it never repaid
In Mr. Trump’s books and TV shows and on the campaign trail, a central trope of his self-mythology has been that, as he began building his own empire, the only financial help he got from his father was a $1 million loan. Not only that: “I had to pay him back with interest.”
In fact, The Times found, Fred Trump lent his son at least $60.7 million, or $140 million in today’s dollars. Much of it was never repaid, records show.
Fred Trump wove a safety net that rescued his son from one bad bet after another
As the 1980s ended, Donald Trump’s big bets began to go bust — Trump Shuttle, the Plaza Hotel, the Atlantic City casinos. But as he careened from one financial disaster to another, family partnerships and companies dramatically increased their payouts.
Between 1989 and 1992, four of the entities that Fred Trump created paid his son today’s equivalent of $8.3 million. And when Donald Trump pleaded with bankers for an emergency line of credit, he used as collateral the stake his father had given him in a group of apartment buildings.
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Tax records also reveal that at the peak of Mr. Trump’s financial distress, in 1990, his father extracted an extraordinary sum — nearly $50 million — from his empire. While The Times could find no evidence that Fred Trump made any significant debt payments, charitable donations or personal expenditures, there are indications that he wanted plenty of cash on hand to bail out his son if need be.
That was what happened at Trump’s Castle casino, where an $18.4 million bond payment was due in December 1990. Fred Trump dispatched a trusted bookkeeper to Atlantic City with checks to buy $3.5 million in casino chips without placing a bet. With this ruse — an illegal loan under New Jersey gaming laws, resulting in a $65,000 civil penalty — Donald Trump narrowly avoided defaulting on his bonds.
The Trumps turned an $11 million loan debt into a legally questionable tax write-off
By 1987, Donald Trump’s loan debt to his father had grown to at least $11 million. Had Fred Trump simply forgiven the debt, his son would have owed millions in income taxes. They found another solution — one that appears to constitute both an unreported multimillion-dollar gift and an illegal tax write-off.
That December, records show, Fred Trump spent $15.5 million to buy a 7.5 percent stake in Trump Palace, his son’s condo tower rising on the Upper East Side of Manhattan. Four years later, tax returns and financial statements show, Fred Trump sold that stake for just $10,000. The buyer, other documents indicate, was his son.
According to tax experts, with Trump Palace condos selling briskly, selling shares worth $15.5 million to your son for a mere sliver of that would constitute a multimillion-dollar gift under I.R.S. rules. But Fred Trump’s tax returns show no such gift to Donald Trump. What they do reveal is that he used the transaction to declare an enormous tax write-off. That appears to violate federal tax law that prohibits deducting any loss from the sale or exchange of property between family members.
In all, Fred Trump dodged roughly $8 million in gift taxes and $5 million in income taxes on the transaction.
Father and son set out to create the myth of a self-made billionaire
All told, The Times documented 295 distinct streams of revenue Fred Trump created over five decades to channel wealth to his son.
But the partnership between Donald Trump and his father was about more than the pursuit, and the preservation, of riches. They were also confederates in a more ambitious project: creating the myth of Donald J. Trump, Self-Made Billionaire. If Fred Trump was the silent partner, helping finance the accouterments of wealth, it was Donald Trump who spun them into a seductive narrative.
Emblematic of this dynamic is Trump Tower, the talisman of privilege that established Donald Trump as a player in New York. Fred Trump’s money helped build it. His son recognized and exploited its iconic power as the primary stage for both “The Apprentice” and his presidential campaign.
Donald Trump tried to change his ailing father’s will, setting off a family reckoning
In December 1990, Donald Trump sent his father a document that left him both angered and alarmed. It was a codicil seeking to make a variety of changes to Fred Trump’s will. Among them: strengthening provisions that made Donald Trump sole executor of his estate. But amid Mr. Trump’s financial shambles — it was the month of the $3.5 million Trump’s Castle rescue — Fred Trump feared that the document potentially put his life’s work at risk, that his son might use the empire as collateral to save his own failing businesses, according to depositions given years later during a family dispute.
Fred Trump rebuffed the maneuver, refusing to sign the codicil. But the episode prompted a family reckoning: Fred Trump was aging and ailing. Without speedy intervention, he could die leaving a vast estate — not just his real estate empire, but also tens of millions of dollars in cash — vulnerable to the 55 percent inheritance tax.
So with Donald Trump playing a central role, the family formulated a plan that included unorthodox tax strategies that experts told The Times were legally dubious and, in some cases, appeared to be fraudulent.
The Trumps created a company that siphoned cash from the empire
The first major component was creating a company called All County Building Supply & Maintenance. On paper, All County was Fred Trump’s purchasing agent, buying everything from boilers to cleaning supplies. But All County was, in fact, a company only on paper, records and interviews show — a vehicle to siphon cash from Fred Trump’s empire by simply marking up purchases already made by his employees. Those millions in markups, effectively untaxed gifts, then flowed to All County’s owners — Donald Trump, his siblings and a cousin.
Lee-Ford Tritt, a leading expert in gift and estate tax law at the University of Florida, said the Trumps’ use of All County was “highly suspicious” and could constitute criminal tax fraud. “It certainly looks like a disguised gift,” he said.
Image
In President Trump’s version of how he got rich, he was the master dealmaker who parlayed a $1 million loan from his father into a $10 billion empire.
In President Trump’s version of how he got rich, he was the master dealmaker who parlayed a $1 million loan from his father into a $10 billion empire.Credit...Marilynn K. Yee/The New York Times
All County also had an insidious downside for Fred Trump’s tenants. He used the padded invoices to justify higher rent increases in rent-regulated buildings, records show.
Mr. Harder, the president’s lawyer, disputed The Times’s reporting: “Should The Times state or imply that President Trump participated in fraud, tax evasion or any other crime, it will be exposing itself to substantial liability and damages for defamation.”
The Trump parents dodged hundreds of millions in gift taxes by grossly undervaluing the assets they would pass on
With the cash flowing out of Fred Trump’s empire, the Trumps began transferring ownership of the lion’s share of the empire itself to Donald Trump and his siblings. The vehicle they created to do that was a special kind of trust called a grantor-retained annuity trust, or GRAT.
The purpose of a GRAT is to pass wealth across generations without paying the 55 percent estate tax. The Trump parents did have to pay gift taxes based on one crucial number: the market value of Fred Trump’s empire. But The Times found evidence that they dodged hundreds of millions of dollars in gift taxes by submitting tax returns that grossly undervalued the assets placed in two GRATs, one for each parent.
Fred Trump’s 1995 gift tax return claimed that the 25 apartment complexes and other properties in the trusts were worth just $41.4 million. The implausibility of this claim would be made plain in 2004, when banks valued that same real estate at nearly $900 million.
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We don’t have President Trump’s tax returns. But we have his father’s.
“They play around with valuations in extreme ways,” said Mr. Tritt, the tax law expert, who was briefed on The Times’s findings. “There are dramatic fluctuations depending on their purpose.”
Mr. Harder, the president’s lawyer, said: “All estate matters were handled by licensed attorneys, licensed C.P.A.’s and licensed real estate appraisers who followed all laws and rules strictly.”
After Fred Trump’s death, his empire’s most valuable asset was an I.O.U. from Donald Trump
When Fred Trump died in June 1999 at the age of 93, the vast bulk of his empire was nowhere to be found in his estate — testament to the success of the tax strategies devised by the Trumps in the early 1990s. The single largest item included in his estate tax return was a $10.3 million I.O.U. from Donald Trump, money his son appears to have borrowed the year before he died. As for the remnants of empire left in Fred Trump’s estate, the tax return cited appraisals that once again grossly understated their market values.
As their father’s executors, Donald, Maryanne and Robert Trump were legally responsible for the accuracy of his estate tax return. They were obligated not only to give the I.R.S. a complete accounting of the value of his estate’s assets, but also to disclose all the taxable gifts he had made during his lifetime. If they knew anything was wrong and failed to reveal it, tax experts said, they could be in violation of tax law.
Mr. Harder, the president’s lawyer, defended the tax returns filed by the Trumps. “The returns and tax positions that The Times now attacks were examined in real time by the relevant taxing authorities,” he said. “These matters have now been closed for more than a decade.”
Donald Trump got a windfall when the empire was sold. But he may have left money on the table.
In 2003, once again in financial trouble, Donald Trump began engineering the sale of the empire Fred Trump had hoped would never leave the family. The sale, completed in 2004, brought him his biggest payday ever from his father: His cut was $177.3 million, or $236.2 million in today’s dollars. But as it turned out, banks at the time valued the empire at hundreds of millions more than the sale price. Donald Trump, master dealmaker, had sold low.0 -
Kidchameleon wrote: »That's one way to put it :pac:
That article is behind a paywall.
no its not.0 -
You look at the man and the only way someone like him becomes someone like he has become is by getting a huge leg up financially in life, people laugh at him and people are wary of doing business with him
As a aside to this, Hillary spent close to half a billion more than him on her campaign and she still lost. Thank God she is not in charge of the US finances.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/2016-election/campaign-finance/0 -
ohnonotgmail wrote: »no its not.
My bad. It does require a sign up & there's no way that rag are getting my details. I see the text has been put in thread, great...0 -
Kidchameleon wrote: »As a aside to this, Hillary spent close to half a billion more than him on her campaign and she still lost. Thank God she is not in charge of the US finances.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/2016-election/campaign-finance/
have you factored in he used his own jet and his own properties for many events, he is not going to charge himself is he? considering he couldnt fleece taxpayers just yet
and Trump has bankrupted many a company0 -
have you factored in he used his own jet and his own properties for many events
Your proving my point here ie. He is a successful businessman.and Trump has bankrupted many a company
He has been in business decades. There will always be some bumps on the road. All entrepreneurs have hard times. It is a sign of great business acumen that he could pick himself up, dust off and go again. He is worth several billion, he is NOT bankrup0 -
have you factored in he used his own jet and his own properties for many events, he is not going to charge himself is he? considering he couldnt fleece taxpayers just yet
and Trump has bankrupted many a company
you can be assured that the costs incurred in using his jet were charged to his campaign.0 -
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Kidchameleon wrote: »Your proving my point here ie. He is a successful businessman.
He has been in business decades. There will always be some bumps on the road. All entrepreneurs have hard times. It is a sign of great business acumen that he could pick himself up, dust off and go again. He is worth several billion, he is NOT bankrup
do you have a source for that? are you simply counting the values of the properties his company owns and ignoring the massive pile of debt he has with banks around the world? if you have a 1 billion dollars worth of property and owe banks a billion you are not a billionaire.0
This discussion has been closed.
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