2020 US Presidential Election (aka: The Trump Coronation)

notobtuse

Quin_Dub wrote: »

How could they be , given that she refused to name her alleged attacker in her statement to the police?

What exactly would the police be investigating?

If that has changed and she has named names to someone other than a journalist , then I'm happy to stand corrected.

Also - Speculation by whom and where exactly? , given as you allude in your post that this is not being reported in the media.

Do you honestly believe what you are typing? Of course a select small level of the media will report on it because they don't put journalistic integrity below their undying loyalty to the democrat party and their own ideology that should have nothing to do with journalistic reporting.

NPR obtained confirmation of the police report from a law enforcement source. A record of the report names Biden. NPR has filed a Freedom of Information Act request for the full report.

https://www.npr.org/2020/04/19/837966525/on-the-record-a-former-biden-staffers-sexual-assault-allegation

You stand corrected.

2u2me

Carfacemandog wrote: »

Here is Ontario premier Doug Ford wearing one.

I thought he was dead! (Then I realized it's his brother and not Rob)

Sean.3516

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

he used a press briefing about a pandemic to show a campaign video. and that is illegal in the US.

It wasn't a campaign video. Nowhere did it say "vote Republican in 2020" or "vote Trump 2020" or "Make/Keep America Great" or " I am Donald Trump and I approve this message". The video wasn't paid for by the Trump campaign or the Republican Party. It was a PR video paid for by funds allocated to the Trump administration by Congress.

Quin_Dub

notobtuse wrote: »

Let’s be real. We need to make room for the verbal slip-ups by candidates who are dealing with trying to safeguard the country both medically and economically from a global pandemic that threatens the nation, giving daily briefings, dealing with a relentless biased media, or running the nation and dealing with international affairs, or barnstorming around the country giving public speeches. But Joe Biden clearly is not well. He obviously is suffering from visibly diminished mental capacities. Anyone not wearing rose colored glasses can see that.

Absolutely NONE of the examples I gave above are from the last 3 months so "Trying to Safeguard the country" doesn't explain it.

So , it's the pressure of the job is getting to Trump and it's only the "pressure" that's making him speaking like a gibbering idiot. But if anyone else is in a stressful job or under intense media pressure , they are "clearly unwell with diminished mental capacity"?

Can you not see the incredible levels of cognitive dissonance required to make statement like that??

notobtuse wrote: »

I understand politics and the need to never show any level of weakness. But the democrats and their media handmaidens are doing the nation and its citizens a disservice by running Biden at the top of their ticket. We need a strong leader and commander-in-chief. Biden has become a hostage of the unfortunate consequences involved with advancing age. If, god forbid, Joe would win the presidency we know our country would actually be run by others in the background. Trump recently said if Biden is elected, “They are going to put him in a home and other people are going to be running the country.” Crass and crude but pointedly on target.

Let’s be truthful here… If republicans ran someone with the diminished capacity level of Biden he would be savaged, non-stop, by the media.

They did, and he is - Donald J Trump.

Also

If, god forbid, Joe would win the presidency we know our country would actually be run by others in the background.

How does that differ from Reagans second term( and realistically , his 1st term too) or both of GWB's terms???

If there's a less than competent President in place I'd prefer that they act in a "figurehead" role , compared to now where there is a deeply incompetent President in place who is trying to control everything.

ohnonotgmail

Sean.3516 wrote: »

It wasn't a campaign video. Nowhere did it say "vote Republican in 2020" or "vote Trump 2020" or "Make/Keep America Great" or " I am Donald Trump and I approve this message". The video wasn't paid for by the Trump campaign or the Republican Party. It was a PR video paid for by funds allocated to the Trump administration by Congress.

sure thing.

Sean.3516

osarusan wrote: »

When Trump repteated his claim last night that the US has done more Covid-19 tests than every other country combined ("If you add up the testing of every nation in the world, we have done substantially more than that ", even though the falsity of that claim has already exposed, would you consider that him intentionally misleading with false information?

In terms of absolute numbers of testing done, the US is leading the world.

Now in per capita terms (when you divide by population) US testing is ranked somewhere in the middle of European nations. But that isn't what Trump said. He said the US has done more tests than any other nation on Earth which happens to be true. Now you may think as I do that absolute numbers of testing is not a statistic worth boasting about (testing per capita would be if we're comparing different nations) but nevertheless the statement stands as true.

It is amazing how the media likes to switch between emphasising per capita statistics and absolute statistics as it suits them. A few weeks ago we heard how nothing but how shameful it was that the USA has the largest total number of cases, whereas when you adjust for population, this is not the case. Now Trump is doing the same thing with testing numbers. Although both parties may be misleading their audiences by taking advantage of the fact that most people don't really understand statistics that well, its not the same as putting out false information.

Sean.3516

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

sure thing.

What do you define as a campaign video?

Carfacemandog

notobtuse wrote: »

Okay, and so what. We know that is not the mask Biden was trying to discuss. He unfortunately just can't remember some basic things.

You asked if anyone found N96 masks. I found you thousands.

Has anyone found the extra few billion people Trump seems to think there are in the US?

Quin_Dub

notobtuse wrote: »

Quin_Dub wrote: »

ahem...




But just for balance - Here's EXACTLY the same information from

USA Today
ABC News
CBS News
NPR




Funding Healthcare Providers and SNAP are "Pet Projects" Seriously?

Does it say anything anywhere about only giving money to Democrat controlled States?

Maybe if the GOP had not insisted that most of the 1st tranche of Funds went to bail out massive Corporations or to give tax breaks to the 1% there would be more money available for the Great American Worker[(tm) that the GOP suddenly seem to care about so much.

All Left, but that's beside the point. Where do any of them note that the democrats have been blocking funding for the PPP the last 10 days? Biased much.

notobtuse wrote: »

Do you honestly believe what you are typing? Of course a select small level of the media will report on it because they don't put journalistic integrity below their undying loyalty to the democrat party and their own ideology that should have nothing to do with journalistic reporting.

https://www.npr.org/2020/04/19/837966525/on-the-record-a-former-biden-staffers-sexual-assault-allegation

You stand corrected.

So yesterday , NPR was an unacceptable "Left" source , but today because it supports your position , it's good ?


I do indeed stand corrected on the report - But that article doesn't say any of the things you alleged yesterday.

notobtuse wrote: »

By the way, has the biased media been reporting non-stop and on front page news the fact Washington DC police are treating the sexual assault allegation against Joe Biden by former Senate staff member Tara Reade as an 'Active and Ongoing' investigation? Rather odd IMO as statute of limitations has expired on the potential charges. Speculation is that police are looking at related recent crimes including obstruction of justice or threatening a witness.

All it says is

The police investigation is currently open, though the statute of limitations for prosecuting the alleged assault has expired.

Not "Active and Ongoing or that any investigations are underway.

Given that the statute of limitations has long since expired and that I'm sure the police have lots of other actually "Active and Ongoing" cases , the far more likely explanation is that it's just that they haven't gotten around to the requisite paper-work to close the report.


Doesn't mean that people shouldn't investigate this a bit more , but the story so far is wildly inconsistent and not really corroborated

Reade detailed her account in multiple conversations with NPR, and it was corroborated by a friend of hers who declined to be identified. Reade's brother also corroborated some parts of her story. No contemporaneous notes or documentation of the alleged incident have been found, and Reade's account has been denied by longtime Biden staffers whom she worked for at the time.

But as of now , this is categorically not the "smoking gun" you seem to deeply hope that it is.

Carfacemandog

2u2me wrote: »

I thought he was dead! (Then I realized it's his brother and not Rob)

This one apparently only dealt in hash.

Quin_Dub

Sean.3516 wrote: »

In terms of absolute numbers of testing done, the US is leading the world.

Now in per capita terms (when you divide by population) US testing is ranked somewhere in the middle of European nations. But that isn't what Trump said. He said the US has done more tests than any other nation on Earth which happens to be true. Now you may think as I do that absolute numbers of testing is not a statistic worth boasting about (testing per capita would be if we're comparing different nations) but nevertheless the statement stands as true.

It is amazing how the media likes to switch between emphasising per capita statistics and absolute statistics as it suits them. A few weeks ago we heard how nothing but how shameful it was that the USA has the largest total number of cases, whereas when you adjust for population, this is not the case. Now Trump is doing the same thing with testing numbers. Although both parties may be misleading their audiences by taking advantage of the fact that most people don't really understand statistics that well, its not the same as putting out false information.

Except , that's not what he said - His quote was in the mail you responded to.

He said that they had done more tests than the rest of the world combined - Which is a lie.

It's notable that when you look at the charts they show at these briefings they use a "per capita" view for Deaths as that currently looks better for the US than the absolute count , but they do the reverse when showing information about testing.

It's deliberately disingenuous and misleading.

Either show all the data in Per Capita terms or in absolute terms (or even both) but alternating the charts to make people think things are better than they are is just flat out cheating.

Sean.3516

duploelabs wrote: »

For those who doubt the legality

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatch_Act_of_1939?wprov=sfla1

Invoking the Hatch Act to call the video illegal still begs the question as to whether or not the video was made for electoral purposes. Everyone's in agreement that if the President makes a campaign video with public funds that shouldn't be allowed. It seems to me that it was attempt by Trump to make what he felt were corrections to the public record for his handling of coronavirus. You might think the video was full of crap but that's besides the point. Nowhere in the video does Trump ask people to vote for him. If this video is illegal under the Hatch Act, then it's also be illegal for Trump to have a press secretary or any public relations apparatus at the White House since all of this could be construed as campaigning on the public dime.

This is all putting aside the fact that the Hatch Act mainly applies to non-elected employees of the Federal Government. Because the act recognises that elected members of the Federal Government such as the President have a unmitigable incentive to be re-elected which makes banning them from electoral activity a pointless policy. Again, EVERYTHING a first term president does could be considered an electoral activity. Most citizens understand this and accept it so long as no other laws are being broken.

osarusan

Sean.3516 wrote: »

Now in per capita terms (when you divide by population) US testing is ranked somewhere in the middle of European nations. But that isn't what Trump said. He said the US has done more tests than any other nation on Earth which happens to be true. Now you may think as I do that absolute numbers of testing is not a statistic worth boasting about (testing per capita would be if we're comparing different nations) but nevertheless the statement stands as true.

But Trump wasn't talking about per capita testing or even which country has done the biggest number of tests. Trump said, specifically, that the number of tests done by US is greater than the combined number of tests done by all other countries. Here it is again - there's nothing complicated or hard to understand about it: "If you add up the testing of every nation in the world, we have done substantially more than that "

And here are two other ways he has worded the same claim before his most recent claim:

"we’ve done more [testing] than everybody else, every other country combined. "
" We’ve tested more than every country in the world, even put together. So that’s all I can say. "

That claim is not correct, it has been proven wrong.

But he has repeated the claim that has already been proven to be incorrect.

This is why I ask if you consider this repeated claim of what the speaker knows to be misleading as propaganda.

Quin_Dub

Sean.3516 wrote: »

Invoking the Hatch Act to call the video illegal still begs the question as to whether or not the video was made for electoral purposes. Everyone's in agreement that if the President makes a campaign video with public funds that shouldn't be allowed. It seems to me that it was attempt by Trump to make what he felt were corrections to the public record for his handling of coronavirus. You might think the video was full of crap but that's besides the point. Nowhere in the video does Trump ask people to vote for him. If this video is illegal under the Hatch Act, then it's also be illegal for Trump to have a press secretary or any public relations apparatus at the White House since all of this could be construed as campaigning on the public dime.

This is all putting aside the fact that the Hatch Act mainly applies to non-elected employees of the Federal Government. Because the act recognises that elected members of the Federal Government such as the President have a unmitigable incentive to be re-elected which makes banning them from electoral activity a pointless policy. Again, EVERYTHING a first term president does could be considered an electoral activity. Most citizens understand this and accept it so long as no other laws are being broken.

Technically , you are probably correct - It is unlikely to reach the legal bar for breaching the Hatch act , but in the context of where it was delivered it provided no new information nor did it add any clarity for anyone about anything.

It was essentially a Video showing people saying "Thank you President Trump" over and over again.

It's far less about who paid for it , than about where and when it was displayed....

It's sole purpose was to improve Trumps standing with the Electorate - So showing it at a press conference about a Global Pandemic where as I post this 46851 US citizens have died is both wholly inappropriate and deeply distasteful.

Which I guess is entirely appropriate for the Trump Presidency thus far.

Sean.3516

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Except , that's not what he said - His quote was in the mail you responded to.

He said that they had done more tests than the rest of the world combined - Which is a lie.

It's notable that when you look at the charts they show at these briefings they use a "per capita" view for Deaths as that currently looks better for the US than the absolute count , but they do the reverse when showing information about testing.

It's deliberately disingenuous and misleading.

Either show all the data in Per Capita terms or in absolute terms (or even both) but alternating the charts to make people think things are better than they are is just flat out cheating.

Fair enough, the thing about "more tests than the world combined" is obviously untrue.

It's still not clear if it's a lie though. A lie is when you intentionally speak a falsehood. The thing about Trump is that he routinely speaks in superlatives and exaggerated bombastic language in such an instinctive routine way that it's not always easy to tell when he's lying with malicious intent or just going overboard with the sales pitch that he sees every public speech as.

I agree he shouldn't say things that aren't true. I don't agree that it counts as a "lie" every time he does so.

2u2me

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Technically , you are probably correct - It is unlikely to reach the legal bar for breaching the Hatch act , but in the context of where it was delivered it provided no new information nor did it add any clarity for anyone about anything.

The classic Rorschach inkblot. Trump carefully crafts his statements so they can be interpreted differently by different people.
Most often just a distraction and as you can tell by the media and this thread it works a treat!

Remember his classic

"They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. ,They’re(Their) rapists. And some, I assume, are good people."

The problem is the people who assume his worst intentions feed right into exactly what Trump is trying to do.

Sean.3516

osarusan wrote: »

This is why I ask if you consider this repeated claim of what the speaker knows to be misleading as propaganda.

No, because as I said there are two elements to propaganda. One is that the information has to be false. Two is that it has to be intended to mislead.

I've clarified my thoughts on the "tested more than any country combined thing in a post above."

Trump is telling what Jordan Peterson would call a "black truth". It's the opposite of a white lie. A white lie is when you tell a lie to accomplish something that could be seen as positive. Like not hurting someone's feelings. A black truth is when you when you use the truth to for bad purposes such as to mislead.

Neither the absolute numbers or the per capita numbers have been shown to be false. Its the way Trump is using them that you have a problem with. That isn't propaganda. Its just spin.

Quin_Dub

Sean.3516 wrote: »

Fair enough, the thing about "more tests than the world combined" is obviously untrue.

It's still not clear if it's a lie though. A lie is when you intentionally speak a falsehood. The thing about Trump is that he routinely speaks in superlatives and exaggerated bombastic language in such an instinctive routine way that it's not always easy to tell when he's lying with malicious intent or just going overboard with the sales pitch that he sees every public speech as.

I agree he shouldn't say things that aren't true. I don't agree that it counts as a "lie" every time he does so.

No - They are all lies.

Making stuff up to make things look good or sound better is lying , simple as that.. The fact that he does it reflexively and doesn't necessarily "plan" to do it does not in any way, shape or form make it any less of an outright lie.

It actually makes it worse in my view - He cannot and does not differentiate between fact and fiction , he says what he thinks people want to hear and what will make him look good - whether it is true or false is utterly irrelevant and meaningless to him.

Outlaw Pete

Quin_Dub wrote: »

He said that they had done more tests than the rest of the world combined - Which is a lie.

Why be so dramatic? He's surrounded by experts in the relevant stats and speaking to millions of people who are a Google search away from the stats too. Yet you believe he's gonna try and lie and see if nobody notices.

It's quite clear Trump is saying it believing it to be accurate. He's wrong, that's all - misspeaking, and the reason is clear if you would just try and be objective for two seconds.

As I said on another thread: At the Sunday presser he said the following:

"America continues to make steady progress in our war against the virus. As of today, we’ve tested 4.18 million Americans. That’s a record anywhere in the world. The United States has now conducted more total tests than all of the following nations combined: France, the United Kingdom, South Korea, Japan, Singapore, India, Austria, Australia, Sweden, and Canada"

The GOP have also posted:

https://twitter.com/WhiteHouse/status/1252673409584111617


You have to be really hate the guy to insist he's lying as opposed to just being mistaken. I get that it fits the preferred narrative but doesn't it matter that what you (and others) are suggesting makes naff all sense? It's quite clear the stat he believes he's referencing. Not everything has to be viewed through the Orange Man Bad / Evil goggles.

duploelabs

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Why be so dramatic? He's surrounded by experts in the relevant stats and speaking to millions of people who are a Google search away from the stats too. Yet you believe he's gonna try and lie and see if nobody notices.

It's quite clear Trump is saying it believing it to be accurate. He's wrong, that's all - misspeaking, and the reason is clear if you would just try and be objective for two seconds.

.

So by your example, he's not lying he's just incompetent at delivering a clear message because he's given wrong information?

Quin_Dub

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Why be so dramatic? He's surrounded by experts in the relevant stats and speaking to millions of people who are a Google search away from the stats too. Yet you believe he's gonna try and lie and see if nobody notices.

It's quite clear Trump is saying it believing it to be accurate. He's wrong, that's all - misspeaking, and the reason is clear if you would just try and be objective for two seconds.

As I said on another thread: At the Sunday presser he said the following:



The GOP have also posted:

https://twitter.com/WhiteHouse/status/1252673409584111617


You have to be really hate the guy to insist he's lying as opposed to just being mistaken. I get that it fits the preferred narrative but doesn't it matter that what you (and others) are suggesting makes naff all sense? It's quite clear the stat he believes he's referencing. Not everything has to be viewed through the Orange Man Bad / Evil goggles.

I've already covered the Lie vs. Mistake thing in an earlier post.

He simply doesn't care either way , he says what makes him look and feel good in his mind - Facts don't matter to him and never have.

Of all these supposed "mistakes" or instances of "misspeaking" from Trump how many of those mistakes make him or his administration look worse , even a little bit? If they were genuine , there'd at least be a handful of them.

He lies reflexively - If the lie will make him look better that's what he goes with, because him looking good is all that matters..

Sean.3516

I recently heard a conservative commentator (who despite liking Trump’s policies hates how he conducts himself in pressers) say that on Trump’s headstone will be the words:

“Donald J. Trump, 45th President
Dude said a lot of crap”

Anybody who’s been watching this guy since he started campaigning nearly six years ago knows how he behaves. We know he’s a salesman who speaks in superlative language with native ease. Yet a certain group of us feel the need to do the pearl clutching routine every time he does it as though we haven’t seen him do it 10,000 times already.

The dirty little secret is that Trump behaves almost the same as any other politician, he just does it louder.

notobtuse

Quin_Dub wrote: »

So yesterday , NPR was an unacceptable "Left" source , but today because it supports your position , it's good ?


I do indeed stand corrected on the report - But that article doesn't say any of the things you alleged yesterday.



All it says is


Not "Active and Ongoing or that any investigations are underway.

Given that the statute of limitations has long since expired and that I'm sure the police have lots of other actually "Active and Ongoing" cases , the far more likely explanation is that it's just that they haven't gotten around to the requisite paper-work to close the report.


Doesn't mean that people shouldn't investigate this a bit more , but the story so far is wildly inconsistent and not really corroborated



But as of now , this is categorically not the "smoking gun" you seem to deeply hope that it is.

In that segment of my post I responded to your incorrect assertion that Biden wasn't named in the police report and provided you with a source I think you'd believe. Don't make it out to be anything more than it was.

notobtuse

2u2me wrote: »

The classic Rorschach inkblot. Trump carefully crafts his statements so they can be interpreted differently by different people.
Most often just a distraction and as you can tell by the media and this thread it works a treat!

Remember his classic


The problem is the people who assume his worst intentions feed right into exactly what Trump is trying to do.

Sadly, those on the Left only hear what they want to hear, and disregard the rest, when it comes to Trump.

osarusan

Sean.3516 wrote: »

No, because as I said there are two elements to propaganda. One is that the information has to be false. Two is that it has to be intended to mislead.

I've clarified my thoughts on the "tested more than any country combined thing in a post above."

Yes, its clear that you agree that the "tested more than any country combined" claim is, in your words, 'obviously untrue.'

So forget the per capita numbers or total numbers and 'black truths' and just focus on this one specific claim. Trump is repeating an 'obviously untrue' claim. Now it comes down for the reasons for him doing that.

Can you offer a reason for him to repeat this obviously untrue claim other than to mislead people into believing that the US testing regime is better than it actually is relative to any/all other countries?

Sean.3516

osarusan wrote: »

Yes, its clear that you agree that the "tested more than any country combined" claim is, in your words, 'obviously untrue.'

So forget the per capita numbers or total numbers and 'black truths' and just focus on this one specific claim. Trump is repeating an 'obviously untrue' claim. Now it comes down for the reasons for him doing that.

Can you offer a reason for him to repeat this obviously untrue claim other than to mislead people into believing that the US testing regime is better than it actually is relative to any/all other countries?

Yes, I can. Either he misspoke or he made the claim thinking it was true.

Outlaw Pete’s post above containing a tweet from the White House seems to clarify this particular claim.

Trump was talking about 10 specific countries whose combined testing numbers the US has exceeded.

Most likely what happened was Trump glanced at this within a few hours of the press conference and then during the press conference called it from the back of his mind but botched it saying “more than all countries combined.”

It’s not lying.

Quin_Dub

Sean.3516 wrote: »

Yes, I can. Either he misspoke or he made the claim thinking it was true.

Outlaw Pete’s post above containing a tweet from the White House seems to clarify this particular claim.

Trump was talking about 10 specific countries whose combined testing numbers the US has exceeded.

Most likely what happened was Trump glanced at this within a few hours of the press conference and then during the press conference called it from the back of his mind but botched it saying “more than all countries combined.”

It’s not lying.

Amazing how all of these errors are in his favour though isn't it???

Not once has he made one of these mistakes that made him look worse - Unbelievable luck..

osarusan

Ok.

I think it is extraordinarily unlikely that he continues to misspeak and repeat a claim despite it already being shown as untrue by the press. And exraordinarily convenient that even though it is not his intention and he is simply misspeaking, the effect may be to convince people that the US testing regimes is better than it actually is relative to any/all other countries.

But we will leave it at that I suppose.

ohnonotgmail

Sean.3516 wrote: »

Yes, I can. Either he misspoke or he made the claim thinking it was true.

Outlaw Pete’s post above containing a tweet from the White House seems to clarify this particular claim.

Trump was talking about 10 specific countries whose combined testing numbers the US has exceeded.

Most likely what happened was Trump glanced at this within a few hours of the press conference and then during the press conference called it from the back of his mind but botched it saying “more than all countries combined.”

It’s not lying.

so i suppose he has clarified he made a mistake in his earlier claim?

Sean.3516

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

so i suppose he has clarified he made a mistake in his earlier claim?

It’s not in Trump’s nature to ever clarify a mistake, clarifying a mistake means admitting the mistake exists. Although his subordinates did clarify the “more than all countries combined” thing in that White House tweet.

Basically Trump’s administration is Trump saying a lot of stuff and then his subordinates running around behind him trying to adapt the PR to fit whatever he’s just said.

It’s also one of generic Republican policies which are quite decent marked by the worst possible presentation and that’s Trump’s fault. If Trump had more personal discipline he’d be at least 50% in the polls.