2020 US Presidential Election (aka: The Trump Coronation)

hetuzozaho

I think it was a poor question.

"You said many times the US is doing far better than any other country when it comes to testing, why does that matter?"

They've been comparing the US with others for weeks.
I think you have to compare yourself to other countries to see how you are doing?

BUT comparatively the US are not leading testing. This is what I feel should be brought up.

And he lied again last night about figures "GERMANY AND THE UNITED STATES ARE THE TWO BEST IN DEATHS PER 100,000 PEOPLE". And he has lied about figures multiple times in the past at these briefings and was not challenged on them before or last night. That's frustrating to watch.

Anyone trying to garner factual information from these briefings and form opinions on the pandemic is really going to struggle. In the interest of these briefings being in anyway useful to the public they should leave Trump inside with his phone and just let the subject matter experts give the update and answer the questions.

He's not fit to be out there answering questions, as he is not up to speed on the facts and figures, I think that is clear to all.

He can only be a drain on that task force.

lawrencesummers

hetuzozaho wrote: »

I think it was a poor question.

"You said many times the US is doing far better than any other country when it comes to testing, why does that matter?"

They've been comparing the US with others for weeks.
I think you have to compare yourself to other countries to see how you are doing?

BUT comparatively the US are not leading testing. This is what I feel should be brought up.

And he lied again last night about figures "GERMANY AND THE UNITED STATES ARE THE TWO BEST IN DEATHS PER 100,000 PEOPLE". And he has lied about figures multiple times in the past at these briefings and was not challenged on them before or last night. That's frustrating to watch.

Anyone trying to garner factual information from these briefings and form opinions on the pandemic is really going to struggle. In the interest of these briefings being in anyway useful to the public they should leave Trump inside with his phone and just let the subject matter experts give the update and answer the questions.

He's not fit to be out there answering questions, as he is not up to speed on the facts and figures, I think that is clear to all.

He can only be a drain on that task force.

Exactly this, he said this and it was the easiest thing to know was a lie, he should have been pulled on it.

Quin_Dub

Hector Savage wrote: »

Testing is a huge factor in the battle against this, look at South Korea,Iceland,Norway,Germany etc ... countries that have gotten a real good hold on this have tested tested tested...

It's a positive (pardon the pun)

Media somehow need to turn everything into a negative though...

When Trump stands in front of a sign saying "Leading the world in testing" he makes the questioning absolutely valid, especially when that statement is absolutely not true in any meaningful way.

Yes , the US have done more tests in total (~7M I think was the figure I saw yesterday) however when you look at the testing RATE in terms of tests per head of population the US is currently in 40th place

So as a US citizen you are (far) less likely to have had a test or be able to get a test than most other countries around the world.

You also have his Press secretary talking about how the WH is dealing with the outbreak there - Frequent testing , Isolation and robust contact tracing , in other words exactly what everybody recommends as the best approach to addressing the spread of the Virus, but when asked about having those same type of things available to the average American she described that notion as "ridiculous".

So , "important" people can access the right kind of testing regime , but Joe Soap can go and whistle..

They should absolutely be challenged on everything to do with testing.

hetuzozaho

Quin_Dub wrote: »

So as a US citizen you are (far) less likely to have had a test or be able to get a test than most other countries around the world.

What are your workings on that out of interest?

Quin_Dub

hetuzozaho wrote: »

What are your workings on that out of interest?

I stand corrected , as of yesterday they stand at 26th in the world in terms of "Tests per Thousand" of Population

ergo - If you are a citizen in one of the 25 countries above the US in that table you have a greater likelihood of either having had a test or being able to access one if you think you need one.

For example you are twice as likely to have had a test in Denmark than you are in the US (~53 vs. ~26).

It's also no surprise to see the UK at the bottom in testing rates either given how things are going there.

Country Date Total tests per thousand
Iceland May 8, 2020 155.953
Bahrain May 9, 2020 104.816
Luxembourg May 9, 2020 87.005
Lithuania May 10, 2020 67.558
Denmark May 9, 2020 53.345
Israel May 7, 2020 50.348
Estonia May 9, 2020 47.772
Portugal May 5, 2020 47.655
Qatar May 10, 2020 44.348
Italy May 9, 2020 41.584
Latvia May 10, 2020 40.606
Belgium May 8, 2020 39.803
New Zealand May 9, 2020 39.468
Russia May 10, 2020 37.335
Norway May 8, 2020 36.14
Switzerland May 9, 2020 35.772
Austria May 10, 2020 35.143
Spain May 7, 2020 34.76
Germany May 3, 2020 32.891
Australia May 9, 2020 31.194
Ireland Apr 28, 2020 30.996
Slovenia May 9, 2020 30.221
Singapore May 4, 2020 30.016
Canada May 10, 2020 28.387
Czech Republic May 9, 2020 28.247
United States May 9, 2020 26.313
Switzerland Apr 17, 2020 25.522
United Kingdom May 9, 2020 25.461

notobtuse

Quin_Dub wrote: »

When Trump stands in front of a sign saying "Leading the world in testing" he makes the questioning absolutely valid, especially when that statement is absolutely not true in any meaningful way.

Yes , the US have done more tests in total (~7M I think was the figure I saw yesterday) however when you look at the testing RATE in terms of tests per head of population the US is currently in 40th place

So as a US citizen you are (far) less likely to have had a test or be able to get a test than most other countries around the world.

You also have his Press secretary talking about how the WH is dealing with the outbreak there - Frequent testing , Isolation and robust contact tracing , in other words exactly what everybody recommends as the best approach to addressing the spread of the Virus, but when asked about having those same type of things available to the average American she described that notion as "ridiculous".

So , "important" people can access the right kind of testing regime , but Joe Soap can go and whistle..

They should absolutely be challenged on everything to do with testing.

You think everyone here wants to be tested, tested, tested? It' been my experience most don't. Id say the majority just want to get back to work. Wearing those damn masks probably does more to prevent the spread of the virus than all the dictorial business shutdowns and isolation orders by our governors who fancy themselves kings and queens.

hetuzozaho

Quin_Dub wrote: »

I stand corrected , as of yesterday they stand at 26th in the world in terms of "Tests per Thousand" of Population

ergo - If you are a citizen in one of the 25 countries above the US in that table you have a greater likelihood of either having had a test or being able to access one if you think you need one.

For example you are twice as likely to have had a test in Denmark than you are in the US (~53 vs. ~26).

It's also no surprise to see the UK at the bottom in testing rates either given how things are going there.

Country Date Total tests per thousand
Iceland May 8, 2020 155.953
Bahrain May 9, 2020 104.816
Luxembourg May 9, 2020 87.005
Lithuania May 10, 2020 67.558
Denmark May 9, 2020 53.345
Israel May 7, 2020 50.348
Estonia May 9, 2020 47.772
Portugal May 5, 2020 47.655
Qatar May 10, 2020 44.348
Italy May 9, 2020 41.584
Latvia May 10, 2020 40.606
Belgium May 8, 2020 39.803
New Zealand May 9, 2020 39.468
Russia May 10, 2020 37.335
Norway May 8, 2020 36.14
Switzerland May 9, 2020 35.772
Austria May 10, 2020 35.143
Spain May 7, 2020 34.76
Germany May 3, 2020 32.891
Australia May 9, 2020 31.194
Ireland Apr 28, 2020 30.996
Slovenia May 9, 2020 30.221
Singapore May 4, 2020 30.016
Canada May 10, 2020 28.387
Czech Republic May 9, 2020 28.247
United States May 9, 2020 26.313
Switzerland Apr 17, 2020 25.522
United Kingdom May 9, 2020 25.461

What is that list? What makes a country eligible for that subset of countries?

Quin_Dub

hetuzozaho wrote: »

What is that list? What makes a country eligible for that subset of countries?

Every country in the world is listed (I think they need to have had 5 deaths to qualify) - I just limited the table to those with greater than 25 tests/100k

Another useful resource is the Johns Hopkins site

lawrencesummers

Quin_Dub wrote: »

I stand corrected , as of yesterday they stand at 26th in the world in terms of "Tests per Thousand" of Population

ergo - If you are a citizen in one of the 25 countries above the US in that table you have a greater likelihood of either having had a test or being able to access one if you think you need one.

For example you are twice as likely to have had a test in Denmark than you are in the US (~53 vs. ~26).

It's also no surprise to see the UK at the bottom in testing rates either given how things are going there.

Country Date Total tests per thousand
Iceland May 8, 2020 155.953
Bahrain May 9, 2020 104.816
Luxembourg May 9, 2020 87.005
Lithuania May 10, 2020 67.558
Denmark May 9, 2020 53.345
Israel May 7, 2020 50.348
Estonia May 9, 2020 47.772
Portugal May 5, 2020 47.655
Qatar May 10, 2020 44.348
Italy May 9, 2020 41.584
Latvia May 10, 2020 40.606
Belgium May 8, 2020 39.803
New Zealand May 9, 2020 39.468
Russia May 10, 2020 37.335
Norway May 8, 2020 36.14
Switzerland May 9, 2020 35.772
Austria May 10, 2020 35.143
Spain May 7, 2020 34.76
Germany May 3, 2020 32.891
Australia May 9, 2020 31.194
Ireland Apr 28, 2020 30.996
Slovenia May 9, 2020 30.221
Singapore May 4, 2020 30.016
Canada May 10, 2020 28.387
Czech Republic May 9, 2020 28.247
United States May 9, 2020 26.313
Switzerland Apr 17, 2020 25.522
United Kingdom May 9, 2020 25.461

Apples and oranges, some of those countries have tiny populations in geographically far smaller regions so it’s much easier to get testing completed.

hetuzozaho

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Every country in the world is listed (I think they need to have had 5 deaths to qualify) - I just limited the table to those with greater than 25 tests/100k

Another useful resource is the Johns Hopkins site

Apologies I thought you were saying the UK were at the bottom of some list:

Quin_Dub wrote: »

It's also no surprise to see the UK at the bottom in testing rates either given how things are going there.

But then the list just seemed to be arbitrarily cut off at the UK for no reason

Quin_Dub

notobtuse wrote: »

You think everyone here wants to be tested, tested, tested? It' been my experience most don't. Id say the majority just want to get back to work. Wearing those damn masks probably does more to prevent the spread of the virus than all the dictorial business shutdowns and isolation orders by our governors who fancy themselves kings and queens

I don't want to be be tested , but it's nice to know that if I need one I can get one pretty easily here. That is not the case in the US as is repeatedly reported

"Wear a Mask" you say? - How about the example being set at the top on that front.

When you have Pence refusing to be seen on camera at a meeting ,demanding that all of the other people who were correctly wearing masks take them off before he'd come out.

What message is that sending out to people?

ohnonotgmail

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Apples and oranges, some of those countries have tiny populations in geographically far smaller regions so it’s much easier to get testing completed.

do you understand what the "tests per thousand" metric actually means?

hetuzozaho

Quin_Dub wrote: »

I don't want to be be tested , but it's nice to know that if I need one I can get one pretty easily here. That is not the case in the US as is re

Exactly, and my understanding is the testing capacity is vital in us getting open up and being able to manage our "new normal" etc

Quin_Dub

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Apples and oranges, some of those countries have tiny populations in geographically far smaller regions so it’s much easier to get testing completed.

Certainly for some of them that's true but not for Russia or Australia who are both a good deal ahead of the US on testing rates.

The main point is that the Trump claim of "Best in the world" or whatever is patently, demonstrably false.

ohnonotgmail

hetuzozaho wrote: »

Apologies I thought you were saying the UK were at the bottom of some list:



But then the list just seemed to be arbitrarily cut off at the UK for no reason

all the data you could possibly hope for https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-testing

hetuzozaho

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

all the data you could possibly hope for https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-testing

Cheers I have the data, I was just questioning the statements:

Quin_Dub wrote: »

So as a US citizen you are (far) less likely to have had a test or be able to get a test than most other countries around the world.

Quin has confirmed they were mistaken.

and

Quin_Dub wrote: »

It's also no surprise to see the UK at the bottom in testing rates either given how things are going there.

with the list cut off at UK.


As they didn't bear true against the data I am seeing.

We've enough misleading information from Trump every night

Quin_Dub

hetuzozaho wrote: »

Cheers I have the data, I was just questioning the statements:

Quin has confirmed they were mistaken.

and

with the list cut off at UK.


As they didn't bear true against the data I am seeing.

We've enough misleading information from Trump every night

Nope - Not mistaken at all - That statement is still absolutely valid.

There are 25 other countries in the world today where you are more likely to have had a test than the US , some by several multiples.

osarusan

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Nope - Not mistaken at all - That statement is still absolutely valid.

There are 25 other countries in the world today where you are more likely to have had a test than the US , some by several multiples.

That also means there are what...170 countries where you are less likely to have had a test than in the US.

So this statement isn't true:

So as a US citizen you are (far) less likely to have had a test or be able to get a test than most other countries around the world.

That's the point being made.

hetuzozaho

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Nope - Not mistaken at all - That statement is still absolutely valid.

Didn't mean to put words in your mouth but I felt you agreed that your statement:

"So as a US citizen you are (far) less likely to have had a test or be able to get a test than most other countries around the world."

was not true.

As when I asked how you concluded this you said

Quin_Dub wrote: »

I stand corrected

Quin_Dub

osarusan wrote: »

That also means there are what...170 countries where you are less likely to have had a test than in the US.

So this statement isn't true:


That's the point being made.

Fair enough , I'll concede the point on "most" -

They are also below the OECD Average for testing



Fundamentally , they are not "best" in terms of testing by any reasonable interpretation of the data

lawrencesummers

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Certainly for some of them that's true but not for Russia or Australia who are both a good deal ahead of the US on testing rates.

The main point is that the Trump claim of "Best in the world" or whatever is patently, demonstrably false.

It sure is false, but it’s comparing apples and oranges.

Comparisons with Canada, Australia, China are relevant because they are multi cities high density and rural low density Modern countries with good infrastructure and large geographic regions, but you could cycle the length of Luxembourg and Iceland in a day.

lawrencesummers

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

do you understand what the "tests per thousand" metric actually means?

I’m sorry you may see the relationship between geographical population densities, infrastructure capabilities and the logistical abilities of certain countries to be irrelevant to the testing capacity of a nation but I can assure you it is relevant.

Just stick to the headlines if the words underneath are to complex.

ohnonotgmail

lawrencesummers wrote: »

It sure is fakes, but it’s comparing apples and oranges.

Comparisons with Canada, Australia, China are relevant because they are multi cities high density and rural low density Modern countries with good infrastructure and large geographic regions, but you could cycle the length of Luxembourg and Iceland in a day.

and the US is behind both australia and canada on testing rates per capita per day. So what useful metric are the US the "best" at?

ohnonotgmail

lawrencesummers wrote: »

I’m sorry you may see the relationship between geographical population densities, infrastructure capabilities and the logistical abilities of certain countries to be irrelevant to the testing capacity of a nation but I can assure you it is relevant.

Just stick to the headlines if the words underneath are to complex.

population densities, infrastructure capabilities and the logistical abilities are very important. so with the advantages in infrastructure capabilities and logistical abilities that the US should have why are they doing so poorly compared to similar countries?

lawrencesummers

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

and the US is behind both australia and canada on testing rates per capita per day. So what useful metric are the US the "best" at?

You should really read people’s posts before you try and instigate a debate / argument / discussion.

People (not you obviously, just in general) can look really dumb sometimes when they pose a question to elaborate on something that was never actually said.

Quin_Dub

lawrencesummers wrote: »

It sure is fakes, but it’s comparing apples and oranges.

Comparisons with Canada, Australia, China are relevant because they are multi cities high density and rural low density Modern countries with good infrastructure and large geographic regions, but you could cycle the length of Luxembourg and Iceland in a day.

Don't disagree - There are obvious reasons why it's easier to get to a high testing rate in somewhere like Iceland compared to the US , however it's Trump that is claiming to be "Greatest in the world" etc. etc.

We also have the startling disconnect between what the WH considers necessary for them to safely continue to operate in the current environment and what they are prepared to facilitate for the rest of the US.

Whilst I get that it's the White House and all that, how is it really any different to any other mid-sized Office environment?

I'm guessing that there are a couple of hundred people in and around the White house on any given day. Countless office buildings just like that throughout the US.

Why do the WH feel they need to have daily testing of all staff along with vigorous contact tracing , but that no one else needs to have anything remotely close to that available to them? "A frankly ridiculous suggestion" according to Kayleigh McEnaney the other day.

ohnonotgmail

lawrencesummers wrote: »

You should really read people’s posts before you try and instigate a debate / argument / discussion.

People (not you obviously, just in general) can look really dumb sometimes when they pose a question to elaborate on something that was never actually said.

so what useful metrics are the US "best" at? Please note that most overall is a useless metric and tells us nothing.

lawrencesummers

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Don't disagree - There are obvious reasons why it's easier to get to a high testing rate in somewhere like Iceland compared to the US , however it's Trump that is claiming to be "Greatest in the world" etc. etc.

We also have the startling disconnect between what the WH considers necessary for them to safely continue to operate in the current environment and what they are prepared to facilitate for the rest of the US.

Whilst I get that it's the White House and all that, how is it really any different to any other mid-sized Office environment?

I'm guessing that there are a couple of hundred people in and around the White house on any given day. Countless office buildings just like that throughout the US.

Why do the WH feel they need to have daily testing of all staff along with vigorous contact tracing , but that no one else needs to have anything remotely close to that available to them? "A frankly ridiculous suggestion" according to Kayleigh McEnaney the other day.

They are pretty easy points to address, firstly his False claims are Down to two things, being a compulsive liar and being allowed by numerous facets of the US to get away with being a compulsive liar.

Second point on why the WH gets preferential testing, I don’t have an issue with that, the person(s) at the wheel (no matter how bad a driver) need to be given the best medical care.

Joe the postman getting sick won’t have as much an impact as a countries leader becoming incapacitated.

What it doesn’t excuse though is flouting the recommendations on mask wearing which their ego can’t get past. Leading by example is a big thing, but Donald thinks he is bigger.

It also doesn’t excuse work places not having their own practices in place for safety of employees, donald is promoting a do as I say not as I do approach, but his entire life has been about his own self importance and his superiority to all, so it’s not going to change now.

lawrencesummers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

so what useful metrics are the US "best" at? Please note that most overall is a useless metric and tells us nothing.

Look I’m sorry, I just can’t. I’m spending my day being reasonable, mature and rational and I just can’t turn all those things off and discuss something with you that I never said.

Goodbye.

notobtuse

One third of the deaths from the coronavirus in the US happen in nursing homes, yet people in nursing homes represent only about 1% of the US population. Data shows such nursing home deaths now account for more than half of all fatalities in 14 states. A high majority of nursing home COVID-19 deaths occur in the northeast. 20% of deaths in NY from the coronavirus were in nursing homes, 51% in PA, 40% NJ, 24% in CT and 55% in MA. What do these states have in common one might ask? Most have democratic governors who have forced nursing homes to take in coronavirus patients. The governors of NY, NJ and PA should be indicted on charges of criminal negligent homicide for causing many of these nursing home deaths. They know nursing homes have been the least equipped facilities capable of handling COVID-19. Two very unscrupulous and shadowy groups have been on a rampage in the last several years buying up as many nursing homes in the northeast as they can. Their modus operandi, after buying them, in an attempt to make them solvent and profitable, is to fire the majority of staff, set up a family member to run the nursing homes, staff the nursing homes with the minimal about of staff per nursing home population as state mandates provide (not taking into consideration call-offs) and staffing them with unqualified minimum wage workers and non-industry cheap international labor that can’t speak English. The federal and state governments mostly ignore what has been going on in the nursing home industry because it is a pain in their side. And many nursing homes would rather pay any fine they do get rather than correcting deficiencies because it is cheaper. Also, nursing homes for the first month, or more, of the outbreak/pandemic wouldn’t even provide staff with the necessary protective equipment to do their jobs.

Bottom line, Trump is correct, it’s time to get America back to business, because so much COVID-19 deaths are isolated to nursing homes. My idiot PA governor (where 51% of our coronavirus related deaths are in nursing homes) has now extended his business closures and stay-at-home and isolate mandate to June 4. We can’t recall our governor here but the legislature could remove him. Our legislature needs to do their job and get rid of our self-appointed king, who has nothing to fear because, by law, he isn’t allowed to run again for governor (limit 2 terms).

Maybe someone who works in the US nursing home industry might be able to comment on what I noted. Oh, wait... that’s me.