Opening a Coffee Shop in the back of a Bookshop

PickYourName

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Lots of keyboard warriors here

Pot, kettle and black, methinks.....

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

As for the INdo article, yes, sales of real books are increasing, but...

So, you accept the point that your assertion about book sales was wrong? Adding a qualifier doesn't make it any more correct, by the way.

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Were I the bookshop owner I would show him the door as clueless and for insulting my customers.

I think anyone reading what you say will make their own judgements about who's clueless here.....

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Location is key (footfall has an input on location).

Let's see: "[someone] asserting that footfall is the key to success for a coffee shop, it is misleading and in this case plain stupid" yet "location is key". I think there's something I'm missing here. What makes a good location, then, and why is that key yet footfall isn't? On second thoughts, don't bother answering that.

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Had any of you (other than Antoin and Bandara) some (any?) knowledge of the business you might have (a) answered him on food regs

Yes, I do have some knowledge of the business and I did give advice on the question that was asked.

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

or (b) quoted reports on retail / high street, the symbiosis of the High St. with coffee shops, the influence on sales and footfall, etc. Nope, you simply did not know.

Why on earth would I do that? The OP wasn't asking about sales or footfall; all I was doing was pointing that out to others who were giving that unasked for advice and the fact that what he was being told on the topic was plain wrong (your assertion about book sales being in decline being a prime example).

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Or, perhaps (had you heard of it) you might have mentioned the Portas Report which specifically mentions coffee shops (a bit outdated but bits are relevant), or even the Allegra Strategies, Project Café15 EU Report. Go off and Google them, I’m not wasting my time.

My advice is based on years of experience of running coffee shops, and from conversations with a relative who's a bookshop owner, not based on something a I read in a report I found on Google. Is that the extent of your knowledge of the area? Oh, the irony about your comment on keyboard warriers.......

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

The project as described is a failure before it even gets off the ground (or a food licence).

Why so? Because all of the other cafes within book shops are failures? You should set yourself up as a consultant to tell them where they're all going wrong, so. By the way, what's a "food licence"?

05eaftqbrs9jlh

While I know nothing about business, I like the cut of the OP's jig. I would happily patronise the bookshop described. I'd appreciate a pm if you wanted to share where it was. Supporting local businesses like yours is so important, especially when you're making a grand gesture to stand out and attract custom in the face of idle cynicism and negativity. Remain cautiously optimistic!

gomgat

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

by his own admission he serves instant coffee at events and as a socialist, not a capitalist, just wants to make ‘a few bob’. So at these events he has an ideal opportunity to impress, a captive audience, potential customers, and yet he serves them instant coffee? What a key to success! Were I the bookshop owner I would show him the door as clueless and for insulting my customers.

.

You've just lost ANY and all credibility. You are just vindictive now. The bookshop owner and me served the bookshop owner's own instant coffee, because a kettle with instant coffee is all we have so far, since there are no coffee machines yet because THE COFFEE SHOP does not exist yet!!! The reason I mentioned the instant coffee was because you mentioned coffee spilling on the books!!!!
You're not adding anything of substance to this thread, even Bandara has apologised and offered sound help and advice, whilst you are just being insulting and calling me clueless without knowing anything about my background!!! Go away.

gomgat

Jessa Thousands Pink wrote: »

While I know nothing about business, I like the cut of the OP's jig. I would happily patronise the bookshop described. I'd appreciate a pm if you wanted to share where it was. Supporting local businesses like yours is so important, especially when you're making a grand gesture to stand out and attract custom in the face of idle cynicism and negativity. Remain cautiously optimistic!

Thanks, I'll send you a PM

gomgat

Bandara wrote: »

Hi Gomgat,

I apologise if my reply, although I meant well by it, has led to a derailment of your original post. I suppose we can become a bit jaded here sometimes, as so many times someone posts looking for advice and then just goes awol and the time that some of us experienced people have given towards replying etc has been wasted. They posters were just bored and tyre kicking on a pipe dream they were never had any real intention to carry out.

Where are you based ? If you are in Dublin I would like to extend an invitation to meet me in a coffee shop/daytime restaurant that I operate, and we can go thru anything and everything you would like to know. Both on practical Day to Day issues you will face, and in terms of surviving in the business. (There is of course no such thing as a ‘stupid question’ in a scenario like yours - so you can bring a list of anything you wish to ask).

If you feel this may be of use to you please let me know and we can arrange. I do feel it may be beneficial to you. I’m not claiming to be some kind of guru, but I would be happy to help if I can.

Best regards,
Bandara.

That's a very kind offer. I'm not based in Dublin, no, but if I am in Dublin in the next month or so, I will send you a PM and take you up on your very kind offer.

gomgat

Trojan wrote: »

gomgat, can you do us a favour and post some updates on how this goes over the next year or so? It would be really useful for folks who are considering these types of businesses - there are some other threads in this forum with updates over time and it's really helpful to see the evolution of the business & owner's thinking (e.g. ShowerGem, iCabbi, etc).

I will do so

pedroeibar1

I think that this thread is a good example of the level to which this forum has descended.
Here we have a dreamer asking for advice on licencing for a coffee shop in an alcove at the back of a bookshop. He, having told us about his success at serving instant coffee, provides no pertinent information on kitchen, seating, toilets, etc. Not an iota of an idea of what is involved but expects everyone to identify an easy route for HB approval and to congratulate him on his acumen and project. Then, he gets upset when a few pertinent facts are pointed out and, supported by a few losers, goes on the attack instead of asking why several posters – politely or bluntly – state the obvious.
Despite several mentions by me, nobody has bothered to point the OP in the direction of the Clondalkin coffee shop thread. Instead they post silly posts trolling me. He, of course, is too entitled or self-important to use the ‘search’ function.
What really shows up the OP’s ignorance and his failure to succeed ultimately in the venture is his stupid response to Bandara’s offer. (“if I am in Dublin in the next month or so, I will send you a PM”). Any serious person in the OP’s position would do everything possible to get the advice of an expert like Bandara, particularly when it’s offered free of charge. I’d have a meeting arranged already. But then, as the OP also admits, he is a socialist not a capitalist and only wants to make a few bob. I'm not holding my breath to read about his 'grand opening'!!

PickYourName

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

I think that this thread is a good example of the level to which this forum has descended.

You seem completely oblivious to the fact it's you who is dragging it down with your gratuitous insults

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Here we have a dreamer asking for advice on licencing for a coffee shop in an alcove at the back of a bookshop.

No he didn't. There's no such thing as a "license for a coffee shop", which if you knew the first thing about what you are talking about, you would know. The OP has clearly done a lot of research already and asked for some specific practical advice from those who had the knowledge and experience to offer.

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

He, having told us about his success at serving instant coffee, provides no pertinent information on kitchen, seating, toilets, etc. Not an iota of an idea of what is involved but expects everyone to identify an easy route for HB approval and to congratulate him on his acumen and project.

No, he didn't. What planet are you on that you could possibly derive such a meaning from a fairly straightforward query?

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Then, he gets upset when a few pertinent facts are pointed out and, supported by a few losers, goes on the attack instead of asking why several posters – politely or bluntly – state the obvious.

Personally, I think he's been remarkably restrained. Do you derive pleasure from heaping abuse and scorn on people? Am I one of the losers, by the way? Your "stating the obvious" by the way is simply a set of assertions based on ignorance of the relevant industries.

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Despite several mentions by me, nobody has bothered to point the OP in the direction of the Clondalkin coffee shop thread.

How do you know? Out of interest, I for one took a look. Plenty of interesting stuff there OK: much good practical advice, but also much opinion like yours from those who clearly have no knowledge or experience to back it up.

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Instead they post silly posts trolling me. He, of course, is too entitled or self-important to use the ‘search’ function.

I'm genuinely curious: why are you bothering to write what you do? It's hardly to offer advice, or give any genuine help. Are we supposed to be impressed by your superior knowledge and insight? Why the gratuitous insults? All you're doing is showing yourself up for all to see and believe me, it is not a pretty picture.

gomgat

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

I think that this thread is a good example of the level to which this forum has descended.
Here we have a dreamer asking for advice on licencing for a coffee shop in an alcove at the back of a bookshop. He, having told us about his success at serving instant coffee, provides no pertinent information on kitchen, seating, toilets, etc. Not an iota of an idea of what is involved but expects everyone to identify an easy route for HB approval and to congratulate him on his acumen and project. Then, he gets upset when a few pertinent facts are pointed out and, supported by a few losers, goes on the attack instead of asking why several posters – politely or bluntly – state the obvious.
Despite several mentions by me, nobody has bothered to point the OP in the direction of the Clondalkin coffee shop thread. Instead they post silly posts trolling me. He, of course, is too entitled or self-important to use the ‘search’ function.
What really shows up the OP’s ignorance and his failure to succeed ultimately in the venture is his stupid response to Bandara’s offer. (“if I am in Dublin in the next month or so, I will send you a PM”). Any serious person in the OP’s position would do everything possible to get the advice of an expert like Bandara, particularly when it’s offered free of charge. I’d have a meeting arranged already. But then, as the OP also admits, he is a socialist not a capitalist and only wants to make a few bob. I'm not holding my breath to read about his 'grand opening'!!

You love assumptions.
1. Assuming I haven't searched or read the Clondalkin thread (I have, extensively). Darc19 also pointed me towards that thread in a PM, but by the time it was kindly pointed out to me, I had already read it. No search or anything on the Clondalkin thread, however useful, could give me information on the specific question I asked in my original post. A post that you still don't seem to have read properly or comprehend.
2. Assuming no successful Cafe owner close to me (not in Dublin) has offered me advice. They have, not that I am ungrateful for Bandara's offer.
3. I never mentioned my "success" in serving instant coffee, that's something you made up in your head completely. I merely mentioned that we served instant coffee and that no-one, bar the bookshop owner, ever spilled coffee on the books.
4. You assume that I am male. I am, but I love the way you assume everything.

You point out that me and the other posters are what's wrong with this forum, when it is in fact you who are the one bringing everything down. And you call me entitled and self-important ? Perhaps you should go hold a mirror up.

You have not offered or contributed anything of use, bluntly or otherwise. I took all the other criticisms on board, but yours have no substance. Why do you keep wasting your precious time replying to my thread if you are so sure that I am going to fail? Go live your life. I ask you once more and I ask you nicely, please stop replying on my thread.

Axwell

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

I think that this thread is a good example of the level to which this forum has descended.
Here we have a dreamer asking for advice on licencing for a coffee shop in an alcove at the back of a bookshop. He, having told us about his success at serving instant coffee, provides no pertinent information on kitchen, seating, toilets, etc. Not an iota of an idea of what is involved but expects everyone to identify an easy route for HB approval and to congratulate him on his acumen and project. Then, he gets upset when a few pertinent facts are pointed out and, supported by a few losers, goes on the attack instead of asking why several posters – politely or bluntly – state the obvious.
Despite several mentions by me, nobody has bothered to point the OP in the direction of the Clondalkin coffee shop thread. Instead they post silly posts trolling me. He, of course, is too entitled or self-important to use the ‘search’ function.
What really shows up the OP’s ignorance and his failure to succeed ultimately in the venture is his stupid response to Bandara’s offer. (“if I am in Dublin in the next month or so, I will send you a PM”). Any serious person in the OP’s position would do everything possible to get the advice of an expert like Bandara, particularly when it’s offered free of charge. I’d have a meeting arranged already. But then, as the OP also admits, he is a socialist not a capitalist and only wants to make a few bob. I'm not holding my breath to read about his 'grand opening'!!

For all the good advice you give your attitude towards users the rest of the time stinks and isn't needed around here. The level the forum has 'descended to' as you put it is determined by all users, yourself included - calling people losers, suggesting people are idiots not capable of using the search function or posting a link to a thread. The same thread you mention but don't actually post a link to yourself either, while all the time you seem well able to use it when researching someone's post history before posting a response to belittle them or their idea. Very helpful and mature indeed..talking about people going on the attack when you are the one doing the name calling. Time you took a break from the forum as you seem to think having some years in business and knowledge allows you just insult people who are starting out and equate it to harsh truths. If the level of the forum has descended beyond your liking then feel free to find another one elsewhere to post on.

Darc19

What some people don't realize is "success" is measured in different ways by different people.

Similarly some people will degenerate companies that provide low level jobs.

Here's two examples

Bookstore - Woodbine books in Kilcullen. Great LOCAL bookstore. Great selection of books but would hardly support good salaries for the owners. However, the owners have made their money in a previous career and this is their dream and it is successful in relation to their projections.

Jobs - have a read of the threads on Center parcs, longford. Many were hoping and praying for abject failure. Most also pointing to part-time low paid jobs. They employ HUNDREDS of local people. Many simply don't want full time jobs. Adult company, comradery, and a basic pay is sufficient for them and having been there, they either are great at acting or genuinely like their jobs - even at €11/hour.

When I retire early in about ten years, I plan to be a professional MC. I won't charge many of the events and certainly will not make enough to pay for my lifestyle (decent pension will help) - so will that mean I am not successful? No but If I'm not asked back, I'll feel failure.

So success is not always about how much money you make and some posters need to understand that.

beauf

gomgat wrote: »

...
My question is about the Environmental health aspects and what will be needed for this. That's why I didn't go into the nature of the business itself and the validity of the business.

Can't help you with any of that. But I wish you well. I love a cup of tea in a bookshop.

I'll add that our favourite coffee\tea shops, are those that do ordinary food to high standard. Have good kids choices. They generally have a version of an ordinary sandwich or food that we go there specially for. Also a friendly, high standard of service.

gomgat

Darc19 wrote: »

What some people don't realize is "success" is measured in different ways by different people.

Similarly some people will degenerate companies that provide low level jobs.

Here's two examples

Bookstore - Woodbine books in Kilcullen. Great LOCAL bookstore. Great selection of books but would hardly support good salaries for the owners. However, the owners have made their money in a previous career and this is their dream and it is successful in relation to their projections.

Jobs - have a read of the threads on Center parcs, longford. Many were hoping and praying for abject failure. Most also pointing to part-time low paid jobs. They employ HUNDREDS of local people. Many simply don't want full time jobs. Adult company, comradery, and a basic pay is sufficient for them and having been there, they either are great at acting or genuinely like their jobs - even at €11/hour.

When I retire early in about ten years, I plan to be a professional MC. I won't charge many of the events and certainly will not make enough to pay for my lifestyle (decent pension will help) - so will that mean I am not successful? No but If I'm not asked back, I'll feel failure.

So success is not always about how much money you make and some posters need to understand that.

Well, exactly. Pedroeirbar calls me a dreamer, yet I clearly stated that I expect modest enough returns and a loss in the first year.

Everyone going for full-on capital gain success in unsustainable. Not everything is a competition.

gomgat

beauf wrote: »

Can't help you with any of that. But I wish you well. I love a cup of tea in a bookshop.

I'll add that our favourite coffee\tea shops, are those that do ordinary food to high standard. Have good kids choices. They generally have a version of an ordinary sandwich or food that we go there specially for. Also a friendly, high standard of service.

Thanks for your well wishes ! Friendly, that's definitely us and as for high standard, we will do our utmost best to consistently deliver the best we can.

I'm liking the idea of ordinary food to a high standard. Feel good, down-home goodness in a lovely friendly, inspiring setting is what we transpire to be.

beauf

I say that because a number of Cafes and Coffee shops we actually avoid because of the menu is too exotic for many people. A lot of book shop customers will have a kids who also love books. Our trip to the local coffee shop usually includes trip to the book shop first.

gomgat

beauf wrote: »

I say that because a number of Cafes and Coffee shops we actually avoid because of the menu is too exotic for many people. A lot of book shop customers will have a kids who also love books. Our trip to the local coffee shop usually includes trip to the book shop first.

Yeah, too exotic and too much choice, some people have serious anxiety about making a choice in the face of too many options. You see it all the time on, for instance Gordon Ramsay's show, where he simplifies the menu (and I have no big dreams of being Ramsay, just in case certain people on this thread want to accuse me of that too :D)

As for the kids thing, yeah the Bookshop is very popular with kids and we plan on having a few very special items and activities for the kiddies.

looksee

Can I suggest that you please don't get one of those deafeningly noisy coffee machines, they shatter atmosphere and stop conversation. Every coffee shop out there can do fancy lattes etc, maybe go in a different direction with real tea, plunger coffee, and some peace And a choice of gluten free beyond brownies and syntho stuff pre-wrapped in a factory. Good luck with your project, it sounds great!

PickYourName

gomgat wrote: »

Yeah, too exotic and too much choice, some people have serious anxiety about making a choice in the face of too many options. You see it all the time on, for instance Gordon Ramsay's show, where he simplifies the menu (and I have no big dreams of being Ramsay, just in case certain people on this thread want to accuse me of that too :D)

We're definitely on the same wavelength: agree 100% on choice. We focus on quality rather than choice; for example, we only do one or at most two types of sandwich at lunchtime, one type of soup and so on. It's been very successful for us.

duploelabs

looksee wrote: »

Can I suggest that you please don't get one of those deafeningly noisy coffee machines, they shatter atmosphere and stop conversation. Every coffee shop out there can do fancy lattes etc, maybe go in a different direction with real tea, plunger coffee, and some peace And a choice of gluten free beyond brownies and syntho stuff pre-wrapped in a factory. Good luck with your project, it sounds great!

In order to produce the pressure to extract the oils and flavinoids from the coffee, as well as the steaming of milk, the machines will always be loud.

As for the offering, there's certainly a business model that buys in their produce off site with a minimal area for food prep is viable, almost a kiosk-type set up, and they would certainly suit a book shop environment, three of my clients who I supply are that size, but what is essential to their commercial survival is their turnover of customer and footfall so I'd recommend that OP do some proper surveys on the footfall in their bookshop and compare them to a local kiosk-type setup, if a local one exists

gomgat

looksee wrote: »

Can I suggest that you please don't get one of those deafeningly noisy coffee machines, they shatter atmosphere and stop conversation. Every coffee shop out there can do fancy lattes etc, maybe go in a different direction with real tea, plunger coffee, and some peace And a choice of gluten free beyond brownies and syntho stuff pre-wrapped in a factory. Good luck with your project, it sounds great!

Well ... I totally agree with you in principle and have actually thought about it. Reality is that espresso based drinks are extremely popular, so we probably wouldn't survive if we don't do them. A lot of the noise are from the electric grinders. We're thinking of having manual grinders, and should be able to manage that with them with the volumes we expect. But, a lot of other places do not offer other types of Coffee (most don't understand the difference between a Black coffee and an Americano), where we will, so not every order will be a noisemaker hahhaa.

Decent GF and Plant based options are absolutely high on our priority list as are options for people with allergies. I am intolerant to Milk, not lactose intolerant, but intolerant/mildly allergic to the actual milk proteins. It's so hard for me when I go to Cafes to find decent milk-free options. I mean most now offer milk alternatives for an extra charge, but try to find a menu where milk isn't an ingredient in almost every item, especially where I'm from.

PickYourName

looksee wrote: »

Can I suggest that you please don't get one of those deafeningly noisy coffee machines, they shatter atmosphere and stop conversation. Every coffee shop out there can do fancy lattes etc, maybe go in a different direction with real tea, plunger coffee, and some peace And a choice of gluten free beyond brownies and syntho stuff pre-wrapped in a factory. Good luck with your project, it sounds great!

That's a really good point about noise in the context of a bookshop. To mitigate that, I'd go for an automatic grinder, chosen for its noise level. That screaching sound you sometimes hear from coffee machines when milk is being foamed is just someone who is using way too much steam and overheating the milk: a training issue. In other words, it's perfectly possible to get espresso based coffees at a resonable noise level.

Gluten-free is tricky: we spent ages trying to source some, including from specialist suppliers, but found it very hard to get any we liked - some were like eating sawdust, and they were all poor sellers. We eventually gave up and after a lot of time in development, started making our own. They fly out the door now.

gomgat

duploelabs wrote: »

In order to produce the pressure to extract the oils and flavinoids from the coffee, as well as the steaming of milk, the machines will always be loud.

As for the offering, there's certainly a business model that buys in their produce off site with a minimal area for food prep is viable, almost a kiosk-type set up, and they would certainly suit a book shop environment, three of my clients who I supply are that size, but what is essential to their commercial survival is their turnover of customer and footfall so I'd recommend that OP do some proper surveys on the footfall in their bookshop and compare them to a local kiosk-type setup, if a local one exists

Yeah, the flavinoids extracted only to be destroyed by Milk hahaha.
Yep, definitely, we are busy doing a survey of footfall in the Bookshop. It is quite the hub of activity, I do firmly realise that that wouldn't always translate to custom in the coffee shop. I'd like to see percentage-wise how that would translate, I'm researching that at present.

bennyineire

looksee wrote: »

Can I suggest that you please don't get one of those deafeningly noisy coffee machines, they shatter atmosphere and stop conversation. Every coffee shop out there can do fancy lattes etc, maybe go in a different direction with real tea, plunger coffee, and some peace And a choice of gluten free beyond brownies and syntho stuff pre-wrapped in a factory. Good luck with your project, it sounds great!

Plunger coffee , are you high
I'm guessing you are not a coffee drinker, plunger coffee is crap at the best of times and nobody will buy it that's for sure.

I like this idea and have seen it in the UK, GOOD coffee and books. Sounds great to me

rob316

Pre packaged food? For an indie coffee shop I'd see that pretty much unacceptable and I presume others would too.

I see nothing else wrong with what your proposing but I'd reconsider that part.

gomgat

bennyineire wrote: »

Plunger coffee , are you high
I'm guessing you are not a coffee drinker, plunger coffee is crap at the best of times and nobody will buy it that's for sure.

I like this idea and have seen it in the UK, GOOD coffee and books. Sounds great to me

Whilst plungers aren't great there are other noiseless methods of decent extraction, the AeroPress being a prime example. Plungers are better than perculators in my opinion, but the key is water temperature.

gomgat

rob316 wrote: »

Pre packaged food? For an indie coffee shop I'd see that pretty much unacceptable and I presume others would too.

I probably didn't make myself clear with what I mean with pre-packaged food, I mean food that isn't being cooked from scratch, as that would require a full kitchen and change of usage planning permission. I mean high quality food from a decent supplier put together in a loving way

duploelabs

rob316 wrote: »

Pre packaged food? For an indie coffee shop I'd see that pretty much unacceptable and I presume others would too.

I see nothing else wrong with what your proposing but I'd reconsider that part.

Food created off site seems the only viable option, how that comes packaged is moot

PickYourName

To get back to your original query, just some further thoughts on EHOs…
When to initiate contact? Depends on your level of experience, but if you don’t have much I would say as early as possible, but go well prepared. By that, I mean have the layout worked out in sketch form of where you plan to have everything: no expensive architect drawings, as you may have to rework everything. Do as much background research as possible and have some questions ready. In other words, go early, but be prepared.

They will almost certainly bring up the following issues:

- Storage of everything you need: issues such as temperature, separation etc.
- Sinks, location and use.
- Waste: where is it held until collection?
- Waste water: I’m not totally sure, but you probably won’t need a grease trap if you don’t have a full kitchen. I’m sure there’s a grey area about what a “full kitchen” is though.
- Pest control: what’s your strategy?

Although it seems to be getting better, EHOs aren’t always consistent with each-other. That last issue for example, some will insist on engaging an outside pest-control company, others (far more sensibly) are happy to accept a plan that relies on blocking any potential access and (documented) regular inspections.

Most of them are reasonable, and will even make suggestions to save you cash. You very much want to be seen to be on their side, though, and be seen to be working with them to a common goal.

One other thing: it’s probably worth getting a declaration from your local council that no planning permission is needed. We did this, and were glad we did when someone objected to what we were doing: it shut down the objection immediately.

duploelabs

gomgat wrote: »

I probably didn't make myself clear with what I mean with pre-packaged food, I mean food that isn't being cooked from scratch, as that would require a full kitchen and change of usage planning permission. I mean high quality food from a decent supplier put together in a loving way

Where are you based? I am sure both Bandara and I could advise on local suppliers

PickYourName

gomgat wrote: »

Yep, definitely, we are busy doing a survey of footfall in the Bookshop. It is quite the hub of activity, I do firmly realise that that wouldn't always translate to custom in the coffee shop. I'd like to see percentage-wise how that would translate, I'm researching that at present.

It would be a tricky enough survey to do, but why not attempt one in a bookshop that already has a coffee place? Or speak to the owner?

It would give some flavour of what a reasonable % would be, although it wouldn't be without flaws (very dependent on number of tables for example).