Another attack on london - Mod warnings in OP

Dante7

This is the guy who carried out the attacks and was killed by the police. Little more than a child, brainwashed by a destructive ideology.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-london-46592539?__twitter_impression=true

Better Than Christ

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

religion of peace strikes again.

That's exactly the kind of ignorance that Irish people in the UK faced in the '70s and '80s.

There are a couple of billion Muslims in the world. If it wasn't (for almost all of its adherents) a peaceful religion, we'd know all about it.

Nijmegen

So the report is that this is a recently released prisoner who was in on extremist charges. The prime ministers office has released a statement quoted on the guardian pointing out that there’s no powers to keep this person in prison after serving just half their sentence. Of course the most recent London Bridge attack was a prisoner also.

There is a pretty serious question that bears thinking about in relation to how you properly rehabilitate these people and what to do if they are not properly rehabilitated or do not seriously engage in rehabilitation.

To be honest in the context of justice this is not too dissimilar to what you should be doing with convicted criminals of many stripes, from sex offenders who refuse to engage while in prison to burglars with 150 previous convictions. The friction between their rights and the rights of other citizens not to suffer them.

I suspect in this case the pendulum will swing towards US-style long term incarceration. And to be honest as someone who regularly visits cities like London, my immediate reaction is positive towards that view. How and ever, as an Irish person I can also imagine UK authorities taking liberties with those sorts of powers.

Snake Plisken

Nijmegen wrote: »

So the report is that this is a recently released prisoner who was in on extremist charges. The prime ministers office has released a statement quoted on the guardian pointing out that there’s no powers to keep this person in prison after serving just half their sentence. Of course the most recent London Bridge attack was a prisoner also.

There is a pretty serious question that bears thinking about in relation to how you properly rehabilitate these people and what to do if they are not properly rehabilitated or do not seriously engage in rehabilitation.

To be honest in the context of justice this is not too dissimilar to what you should be doing with convicted criminals of many stripes, from sex offenders who refuse to engage while in prison to burglars with 150 previous convictions. The friction between their rights and the rights of other citizens not to suffer them.

I suspect in this case the pendulum will swing towards US-style long term incarceration. And to be honest as someone who regularly visits cities like London, my immediate reaction is positive towards that view. How and ever, as an Irish person I can also imagine UK authorities taking liberties with those sorts of powers.

Absolutely this is the way these Islamic State terrorists need to be kept locked up! No remorse or refuse engage in de-radicalization programs then you don't get released! Cops need to raid whatever Mosque brainwashed this guy and arrest those involved!
I'd also say with the UK out of Europe they can get a lot more Hardline with said terrorists!

Harry Palmr

Snake Plisken wrote: »

Absolutely this is the way these Islamic State terrorists need to be kept locked up! No remorse or refuse engage in de-radicalization programs then you don't get released! Cops need to raid whatever Mosque brainwashed this guy and arrest those involved!
I'd also say with the UK out of Europe they can get a lot more Hardline with said terrorists!

The UK is still a member of the Council of Europe and the European Court of Human Rights so nothing much changes with the exit from the EU AFAIK

Nijmegen

Snake Plisken wrote: »

Absolutely this is the way these Islamic State terrorists need to be kept locked up! No remorse or refuse engage in de-radicalization programs then you don't get released! Cops need to raid whatever Mosque brainwashed this guy and arrest those involved!
I'd also say with the UK out of Europe they can get a lot more Hardline with said terrorists!

Yeah but when does that swing into cops fingering randomers under political pressure to show they’re doing something and you get the Brentford Mosque Four or the London Bridge Seven?

Dante7

Snake Plisken wrote: »

Absolutely this is the way these Islamic State terrorists need to be kept locked up! No remorse or refuse engage in de-radicalization programs then you don't get released! Cops need to raid whatever Mosque brainwashed this guy and arrest those involved!
I'd also say with the UK out of Europe they can get a lot more Hardline with said terrorists!

Fascist! The majority of adherents to Islam do not want to kill us. Just because a few hundred million of them do think that it is ok to murder apostates and other innocent people, doesn't mean that we have anything to worry about. This guy was under close police surveillance and only managed to stab three and put one in intensive care and spread more terror. There's no problem.

Edgware

Nijmegen wrote: »

Yeah but when does that swing into cops fingering randomers under political pressure to show they’re doing something and you get the Brentford Mosque Four or the London Bridge Seven?

Gob****ery

Cordell

Better Than Christ wrote: »

That's exactly the kind of ignorance that Irish people in the UK faced in the '70s and '80s.

There are a couple of billion Muslims in the world. If it wasn't (for almost all of its adherents) a peaceful religion, we'd know all about it.

Yes, all major religions are generally peaceful, but some are less peaceful than others, with a particular one being the least peaceful.

And given that it's THE religion of peace, then why aren't the extremists extremely peaceful?

Boggles

They need to stop glorying these cretins by calling them "terrorists".

I don't agree with much of what Trump has to say, but he summed it up perfectly when he said they were just sad pathetic murdering losers.

jmayo

MakingMovies2 wrote: »

Some far right nutter most likely. Disgruntled that brexit isn't turning into some white supremacist wet dream. This sort of thing is Boris Johnson's and farages legacy upon the world.

Well that wasn't so prescient now was it. :rolleyes:

BTW given the history of these attacks over the last couple of decades the odds are firmly stacked in favour of it being an extremist islamist.

I do hope you don't gamble because you will be a bookies dream.

MakingMovies2 wrote: »

Neither do I but farage and Johnson stoked up the cave dwellers with this brexit fantasy and we'll all pay for it. Europe is becoming increasingly illiberal, the clocks going back.

Yet another islamist carries out yet another terror attack, just after being released from prison for trying to carry out terrorist activities, and the problem is the right.

Fook me but some people really have their fooking heads up their ...

Doctors room ghost wrote: »

Mental health services in the uk and Ireland have failed terribly and the results are visible every single day.

Yeah because all these bast***s are mentally ill. :rolleyes:

That is an insult to people who really are suffering with mental illness and who don't bloody well go out and try kill multiple people.

Boggles wrote: »

They need to stop glorying these cretins by calling them "terrorists".

I don't agree with much of what Trump has to say, but he summed it up perfectly when he said they were just sad pathetic murdering losers.

Would that apply to all these attacks or just the islamist ones ?

Cordell

Given that there is a political agenda and/or ideology behind their motives, they are in fact terrorists. Sad pathetic murdering terrorists but still terrorists. There is no glory in being one, and in their own radical community they will be martyrs no matter how we call them.

Hector Savage

Better Than Christ wrote: »

That's exactly the kind of ignorance that Irish people in the UK faced in the '70s and '80s.

There are a couple of billion Muslims in the world. If it wasn't (for almost all of its adherents) a peaceful religion, we'd know all about it.

Yes you are right, it is a tiny tiny percentage of Muslims that actually carry out these attacks - the problem is the % of Muslims in the Islamic world (and I include the western Muslim populations) is extremely worrying - minorities still, but quite high from such a huge population.. check some polls out - or don't - you probably think this is all made up nonsense.

http://markhumphrys.com/polls.islam.html

FTA69

I’ve made similar arguments on other threads but here goes:

1) There is undoubtedly a problem with radicalism amongst a small section of British Muslims. This doesn’t equate with the kaleidoscope of people and communities in British Islam being terrorists or being supportive of it or being in on it.

2) This stuff is a relatively recent phenomenon. There have been Muslims in Britain in numbers for well over 100 years and this craic only started a number of years ago.

3) This hard radical and ultra fanatical version of Islam isn’t a definition of the religion as a whole; it’s being pushed and promoted via the Gulf across developing countries. The states that push and fund it are also firm allies of the UK and USA.

4) This salafist stuff thrives in contexts of poverty, exclusion, unemployment and the like. There’s a reason radicalisation one prison is a thing.

5) We should have a defining set of secular values and the idea of ‘multiculturalism’ being everyone doing whatever the f*ck they want needs to go out the window.

WrenBoy

Better Than Christ wrote: »

That's exactly the kind of ignorance that Irish people in the UK faced in the '70s and '80s.

There are a couple of billion Muslims in the world. If it wasn't (for almost all of its adherents) a peaceful religion, we'd know all about it.

We are knowing about it, these attacks are almost bi-weekly now and those are just the "successful" ones that occur in the west, we don't hear about the prevented ones and the ones that happen worldwide. Its wilful ignorance at this stage or maybe just blind idealism that people don't want to accept that another religion orders them to be persecuted.

suicide_circus

FTA69 wrote: »

5) We should have a defining set of secular values and the idea of ‘multiculturalism’ being everyone doing whatever the f*ck they want needs to go out the window.

bingo. this hippy dippy cultural relativism simply doesn't work. we need red lines.

Edgware

Don't worry. Priti Patel is coming to the rescue

Lord Fairlord

FTA69 wrote: »

I’ve made similar arguments on other threads but here goes:

1) There is undoubtedly a problem with radicalism amongst a small section of British Muslims. This doesn’t equate with the kaleidoscope of people and communities in British Islam being terrorists or being supportive of it or being in on it.

2) This stuff is a relatively recent phenomenon. There have been Muslims in Britain in numbers for well over 100 years and this craic only started a number of years ago.

3) This hard radical and ultra fanatical version of Islam isn’t a definition of the religion as a whole; it’s being pushed and promoted via the Gulf across developing countries. The states that push and fund it are also firm allies of the UK and USA.

4) This salafist stuff thrives in contexts of poverty, exclusion, unemployment and the like. There’s a reason radicalisation one prison is a thing.

5) We should have a defining set of secular values and the idea of ‘multiculturalism’ being everyone doing whatever the f*ck they want needs to go out the window.

There is a problem with Islam and violence going back to Mohammed though.

Boggles

jmayo wrote: »

Would that apply to all these attacks or just the islamist ones ?

All attacks, glorifying it encourages other attackers.

No matter what cretinous "reasons" they have.

take everything

It's bizarre that this guy is obviously a walking timebomb, serves a couple of years, gets out and resumes his activities.

And people on here saying the response to this ongoing threat is fascistic.

MakingMovies2

take everything wrote: »

It's bizarre that this guy is obviously a walking timebomb, serves a couple of years, gets out and resumes his activities.

And people on here saying the response to this ongoing threat is fascistic.

He had served his sentence and was a free man. What was supposed to happen next? Lock him up indefinitely for being a Muslim?

silverharp

MakingMovies2 wrote: »

He had served his sentence and was a free man. What was supposed to happen next? Lock him up indefinitely for being a Muslim?

he was on a watch list, should terrorists ever be let out if they just go back to their day job

MakingMovies2

silverharp wrote: »

he was on a watch list, should terrorists ever be let out if they just go back to their day job

So what do you suggest? Locking people up forever?

Edgware

It's the 78 virgins I have sympathy for

ghost of ireland past

Islam is a political movement, not a religion.

It shouldn't receive legal protections, and we should be free to speak about it, and to tell the truth about it.

FTA69

Lord Fairlord wrote: »

There is a problem with Islam and violence going back to Mohammed though.

Oh give over. You’re talking about the 600s for Christ’s sake. Entire civilisations were enslaved in Africa or wiped out in South America under the guise of ‘Christianising the natives’. All religions historically have inherent links to violence.

There is a nasty and intolerant version of Islam on the rise and ironically it’s modern and has a deep hostility to far older expressions of culture and faith in the Islamic world.

MakingMovies2

Edgware wrote: »

It's the 78 virgins I have sympathy for

Are you one of them?

FTA69

ghost of ireland past wrote: »

Islam is a political movement, not a religion.

More nonsense. Honest to God there’s a set of talking points and phrases you come across on conspiracy theory and far right media and they come up like clockwork on these threads.

tdf7187

ghost of ireland past wrote: »

Islam is a political movement, not a religion.

It shouldn't receive legal protections, and we should be free to speak about it, and to tell the truth about it.

Your second point is in odd conflict with your first. Ironically, your outlandish statement that Islam en masse is not a religion would feed into those within Islam who want to ban criticisms of it. But you're probably not smart enough to have thought this through, are you, Gemma?

ghost of ireland past

You say it's nonsense. What if I disagree?

Why does a religion specify legal penalties for various things? That's the function of politics, not religion.

If a religion acts like a political party then it should be regulated as such, and legal protections should be removed.

The alternative is the violence that we see.