Thinking of Voting Sinn Fein - Should I?

is_that_so

Sweet.Science wrote: »

SF have promised to lower the pension age back to 65(lets forget they raised it in NI for a second )

They are also scrapping the USC charge for earnings under 30k

They are building thousands of houses

Increasing childcare subsidies

Thats to name a few


Can someone tell me where they are getting the extra few billion from?

It's €7bn more but the other two are promising the shop as well.
SF are also promising to abolish the LPT - a cool €482m. All of this will apparently be done off the back of higher CT on MNCs . The Fiscal Council has been giving health warnings about the sustainability of this for two years. They will also put a tax or taxes on "rich" people. FF 1977 is a good year to look at for this type of manifesto.

machaseh

El Tarangu wrote: »

If I understand correctly, you are from the Netherlands, and are only a recent arrival in Ireland; as such, you probably weren't around to remember a member of the PIRA murdering a Garda in the course of robbing a post office van.

A letter written in prison by one of the scumbags responsible for this outrage was read out loud at the Sinn Féin Ard Fheis, and received rapturous cheers and applause.

And this wasn't 30 years ago - it was in 2003. And the person who read out the letter is still in SF, and indeed is running in this election, and may well get a seat.

Which is a roundabout way of replying to the OP - I wouldn't vote for them, personally.

I don't know the context behind that crime. Supporting a murderer is not a good thing, no, but then again nobody is perfect. FF/FG are responsible for many more deaths on a daily bases that shouldn't be necessary; people dying in the ER or due to infections in the terrible public hospitals. People becoming homeless due to the housing crisis and being killed due to mental problems or due to the adverse conditions that living on the streets and sleeping rough bring. Unnecessary deaths of drug addicts due to lack of proper treatment. Biker deaths due to inadequate biking infrastructure. Road accidents due to inadequate infrastructure and a lack of public transportation options. Etc. Etc. etc.

El Tarangu

Idbatterim wrote: »

meh, FFG are responsible for deaths on a daily basis, in hospitals, law and order. Oh and how many committed suicide during the last recession and are still doing it now, because of their appalling mismanagement!

Suicide is a sensitive and complex area - the suicide rate in Ireland peaked in 2001, when the celtic tiger was booming, so it's difficult to draw a through-line between the crisis and the suicide.

Anyway, your ridiculous false equivalence would only work if FF or FG read out the details of individual suicides at their Ard Fheiseanna, to the cheers and high-fives of their respective memberships.

scrumqueen

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Where I came from, if you had a problem with anti social behavior from a resident in your community , you went to Sinn Fein.

They sorted it out all right.

Usually resulted in someone getting brutally beaten with bats or shot in the knee. Not to mention the murdering of innocent people they firmly connected with. They are very good at that.


How anyone could consider them to lead this country is beyond me.

Well with SF in charge it may well put paid to the gangland problem and general lawlessness that currently abounds :pac:

dashcamdanny

scrumqueen wrote: »

Well with SF in charge it may well put paid to the gangland problem and general lawlessness that currently abounds :pac:

I would not be surprised if they were somehow already involved in it.

El Tarangu

machaseh wrote: »

I don't know the context behind that crime. Supporting a murderer is not a good thing, no, but then again nobody is perfect.

A member of an Gardaí Síochána was murdered in cold-blood by criminals robbing a post office van; I'm not sure what additional context is required to make a value judgement on the people who carried out this crime.

Though if you have the type of moral flexibility on the question of murdering people that your quote seems to indicate, perhaps Sinn Féin is indeed the party for you, after all.

NIMAN

To be honest, I think maybe it's time they got into government and had to make the tough decisions.

It is so easy to be the hurler on the ditch, slagging off every government, claiming you could fix all the problems. Maybe now is their time to have a go or at least be part of a coalition having a go.

Hulk Hands

Every business in Belfast, from a big hotel to a small shopkeeper just trying to survive, has to pay protection money to one of the paramilitary groups. Sinn Fein are not only in league with these people, they have used this group as a source of funding and have actively allowed it during their time in power. Imagine being a nationalist small business owner in the North and feeling no choice but to vote for them, the people meant to be keeping you safe from crime. Every big decision made has to go through Ard Comhairle up north, meaning unelected people will be making the decisions.

How on earth do people think voting for this is ok? I get that people want a change, but there's plenty of other options without supporting whats close to a criminal group. That's not even getting into their spending promises which the dept of finance has deemed reckless.

Iscreamkone

Hello Mary Lou
Goodbye jobs

jimgoose

AulWan wrote: »

A Sinn Fein canvasser got very flustered with me on the doorstep yesterday when I said I couldn't in good conscience vote for his candidate as Sinn Fein's economic policies did not add up.

He started almost shouting me down then, so then just to piss him off (he called while I was having dinner) I mentioned Paddy Holohan's recent comments - his reply was "Paddy Holohan is not our candidate".

The only conversation I have with SF canvassers is to bark "Who told you to come inside that gate? Fuck off. Fuck off now, or I'll call the Gardaí!".

firemansam4

Zetor19 wrote:

At this stage let them have their chance, can’t be any worse than the other shower of corrupt *****.

Deleted User wrote:

Vote for them, OP. They literally (in the literal sense) cannot be worse than we've had before.

I see many people saying this, on this site, other social media and in real life.

And it is actually quite irritating because this kind of statement is just completely wrong.

We can actually get a lot worse believe it or not, talk to someone from one of the poorer Eastern European countries on how worse things can actually be here.

This is by no means saying that the current problems in the health service and the homeless crisis is acceptable, just that anyone thinking things can't get any worse here are completely wrong.

BTW I myself still haven't decided who I'm voting for myself yet.

Geuze

Riskymove wrote: »

the lists are just the proposals around tax

The 20bn is what they say they will spend over current committed amounts (I believe over a 5 year term) so presumably are based on some level of growth

1.4 bn in extra tax, half of which is merely a change in the timing of CT payments

22bn of extra spending 2021-25, that's 4.4bn pa

Ah come on now, it would need huge economic growth to bring in 3bn extra each year.

"Fully costed by the DoF"...............is it really..........

maccored

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Where I came from, if you had a problem with anti social behavior from a resident in your community , you went to Sinn Fein.

They sorted it out all right.

Usually resulted in someone getting brutally beaten with bats or shot in the knee. Not to mention the murdering of innocent people they firmly connected with. They are very good at that.


How anyone could consider them to lead this country is beyond me.

you must have come from a weird place.

where I come from, due to lack of support form the RUC, if there was anti social behaviour you went to SF. The person then got a verbal warning to stop acting the maggot. If they continued they then got a second verbal warning. If they ignored that, then yes - they got a beating. Ignore the beating and you'd be liable to lose your kneecaps - but you'd want to be a bit stupid to go that far.

The police force were useless. If you were a nationalist, they didnt give a ****e what happened you. Most anti social scumbags got the message after one warning.

In an ideal world, it would have been nice to have a police force that would do something about anti social behaviour, but that didnt exist where i grew up.

Then again, that was 35 years ago and in the middle of a conflict. maybe you should get your head out of the past and move on a bit, no?

Balf

finjoe wrote: »

for the rest of us in rural ireland with post offices, shops & pubs, NO taxis or public transport - cant wait to get rid of FF & FG, I actually dont care for the arguments against SF, its time, and thankfully so, the electorate are copping on and going to give SF a chance...what has the ordinary man to loose, the powers that be will try and frighten us about the possible fleeing out of Ireland of big business if coporation tax is upped, and it should be upped, what they are not telling us though in getting these big companies in here, the politicians are being wined/dined and "looked after", both personally and their families, thats why the current anf former lot dont want any change, they are, I am convinced personally being rewarded by these companies, sure why else would any large company want to come here, low tax and low tax only.....fighting the Apple Tax is an absolute disgrace and two fingers to ordinary tax payer of this country, 13 bn being refused and the ordinary man to the pin of his/her collar???...I think that got people thinking here...its all big business with FF and FG, always has been and always will be..if you want change vote for change, dont mind the sticker of the party, give someone else a go..it cannot and will not be anyworse for ordinary people, the top boys might be affected but we will soon see how loyal they are to the Irish..if they are not, well goodbye....

I expect SF will do well in mobilising the anti-punctuation, pro stream of consciousness vote.

Riskymove

Geuze wrote: »

Ah come on now, it would need huge economic growth to bring in 3bn extra each year.

"Fully costed by the DoF"...............is it really..........

I have no idea, I was simply pointing out that all the manifestos are based on some element of growth and do not necessarily outline exactly how they will fund things

FG is at around 16bn extra for 5 years for example and do at least outline their reasoning

Idbatterim

NIMAN wrote: »

To be honest, I think maybe it's time they got into government and had to make the tough decisions.

It is so easy to be the hurler on the ditch, slagging off every government, claiming you could fix all the problems. Maybe now is their time to have a go or at least be part of a coalition having a go.

niman I agree, but lets be honest, FFG sure as fcuk havent made any tough decisions!

BarryD2

Diceicle wrote: »

I'm looking for some other perspectives on the pros and cons of voting Sinn Fein for a floating-voter like myself.

Ultimately, I think the system is in need of radical change and maybe SF is the best-worst way to get that ball rolling????

For each & every policy that Sinn Féin have, you've got to look at it through a special pair of glasses. Whilst it gets hidden at times like this, their over riding objective is to get a 32 county Ireland, by whatever means. So everything they say has to be seen through this filter. Everything.

A UI is of course a legitimate & worthwhile aspiration but it should not dictate any aspect of prosperity and society in this Republic.

By rights, SF should do the hard road and work towards building a peaceful consensus in NI that a UI is the best way forward. But if they can short circuit/ circumvent that by engineering it some other way, then that's fair game in their book. Even if that means destabilising politics & society in the Republic.

So think clearly and look through these glasses before you cast your vote.

Mango Joe

For as long as I can remember Sinn Fein have been glibly promising everybody, everything, always.

But they never have an actual realistic means of delivery and their childish, concocted sums never add up.

- They're also far too close and cozy with the some of the most odious Characters this Country has ever produced.

machaseh

Hulk Hands wrote: »

Every business in Belfast, from a big hotel to a small shopkeeper just trying to survive, has to pay protection money to one of the paramilitary groups. Sinn Fein are not only in league with these people, they have used this group as a source of funding and have actively allowed it during their time in power. Imagine being a nationalist small business owner in the North and feeling no choice but to vote for them, the people meant to be keeping you safe from crime. Every big decision made has to go through Ard Comhairle up north, meaning unelected people will be making the decisions.

How on earth do people think voting for this is ok? I get that people want a change, but there's plenty of other options without supporting whats close to a criminal group. That's not even getting into their spending promises which the dept of finance has deemed reckless.

What do we care about what happens in Belfast? I for one don't give one single sh*te. I'm in Dublin, not in Belfast.

machaseh

El Tarangu wrote: »

A member of an Gardaí Síochána was murdered in cold-blood by criminals robbing a post office van; I'm not sure what additional context is required to make a value judgement on the people who carried out this crime.

Though if you have the type of moral flexibility on the question of murdering people that your quote seems to indicate, perhaps Sinn Féin is indeed the party for you, after all.

Send me some links to articles on what happened and I'll be able to give my proper opinion on this matter.

Jinglejangle69

I see they have conveniently changed their open border policy which was always a big part of their beliefs.

They are pure populism just like the water charges they were initially in favour of until they seen which way the tide went, similar to how they voted for the bailout.

Promising all this stuff to everyone.

Anyway people are believing it so best of luck to them.

Fol20

finjoe wrote: »

for the rest of us in rural ireland with post offices, shops & pubs, NO taxis or public transport - cant wait to get rid of FF & FG, I actually dont care for the arguments against SF, its time, and thankfully so, the electorate are copping on and going to give SF a chance...what has the ordinary man to loose, the powers that be will try and frighten us about the possible fleeing out of Ireland of big business if coporation tax is upped, and it should be upped, what they are not telling us though in getting these big companies in here, the politicians are being wined/dined and "looked after", both personally and their families, thats why the current anf former lot dont want any change, they are, I am convinced personally being rewarded by these companies, sure why else would any large company want to come here, low tax and low tax only.....fighting the Apple Tax is an absolute disgrace and two fingers to ordinary tax payer of this country, 13 bn being refused and the ordinary man to the pin of his/her collar???...I think that got people thinking here...its all big business with FF and FG, always has been and always will be..if you want change vote for change, dont mind the sticker of the party, give someone else a go..it cannot and will not be anyworse for ordinary people, the top boys might be affected but we will soon see how loyal they are to the Irish..if they are not, well goodbye....

It can’t be any worse, yet if all the jobs go or investment into the country is slowed or stifled due to extra taxation for reits or large mnc. Why do you not think this is better?

What we need is stability and growth. Not backward thinking that hinders growth. All of the above is what sf brings to the table.

If the only reason you can say for sf as a reason to enter power is “ah sure, they can’t be any worse than fg or ff”. This is not a reason to elect anyone. And doesn’t have any logic to it. I would prefer to keep the status quo as we know what we have vs the unknown.

kevcos

I hope SF get elected so the cloud cuckoo land/TAL/up da 'ra get a full term of living under a wannabe socialist government.

Disclaimer.
I no longer live in Ireland.

machaseh

Fol20 wrote: »

It can’t be any worse, yet if all the jobs go or investment into the country is slowed or stifled due to extra taxation for reits or large mnc. Why do you not think this is worse?

What we need is stability and growth. Not backward thinking that hinders growth. All of the above is what sf brings to the table.

If the only reason you can say for sf as a reason to enter power is “ah sure, they can’t be any worse than fg or ff”. This is not a reason to elect anyone. And doesn’t have any logic to it. I would prefer to keep the status quo as we know what we have vs the unknown.

The status quo is literally killing people. The status quo has to change.

The housing crisis, the healthcare system, the bad public transportation, etc. etc. This all needs to change.

By continuing to vote for FF/FG allt he time, nothing will change for the better.

Hulk Hands

machaseh wrote: »

What do we care about what happens in Belfast? I for one don't give one single sh*te. I'm in Dublin, not in Belfast.

What is to stop them from turning a blind eye to IRA activities in Ireland if they get in power. You can see this from their opposition to the Special Criminal Court. Or worse than turning a blind eye, actively encouraging criminal activity.

The IRA have no freedom fight in the republic. They do however, have plenty of opporunity to profit from robbing ATM's, Banks and looking for business protection money as is routine up north. Are these the people you want protecting you from crime in Government?

wolfe

Pearse Doherty going to romp home in Donegal and bring McLaughlin with him at the expense of Pringle....according to bookies.

Diceicle

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

I see they have conveniently changed their open border policy which was always a big part of their beliefs.

They are pure populism just like the water charges they were initially in favour of until they seen which way the tide went, similar to how they voted for the bailout.

Promising all this stuff to everyone.

Anyway people are believing it so best of luck to them.

I dont disagree with much of that tbh.
However, would a spell in government, and the realities that come with that not be good for them.
As regards the Open Borders bit - up until 2020 they have been. Have they changed their mind or gotten a better handle onto what their slice of the electorate actually want?
I think that they have, up until now, misread what their voters want - and I have heard it more than once from the talking heads on RTE and podcasts that SF are one of the most distant from their voters in terms of policy - as its hard to believe that the average working class voter want more (or unlimited) immigration and more of the same globalisation.

horsebox1977

Hulk Hands wrote: »

Every business in Belfast, from a big hotel to a small shopkeeper just trying to survive, has to pay protection money to one of the paramilitary groups. Sinn Fein are not only in league with these people, they have used this group as a source of funding and have actively allowed it during their time in power.

Any evidence to back this up?

Fol20

machaseh wrote: »

The status quo is literally killing people. The status quo has to change.

The housing crisis, the healthcare system, the bad public transportation, etc. etc. This all needs to change.

By continuing to vote for FF/FG allt he time, nothing will change for the better.

People are ok with change as long as it benefits them positively. Instead of using emotive terms. Please back up a cause and effect with logic.

Our government tax mnc and reits very little as the positives they bring far outweigh the negatives. Apple employ 6000 staff in Ireland. That means 6000 people are paying paye tax, prsi and are not draining the economy of dole. This doesn’t include all of the extra secondary jobs this creates. Please tell me why Ireland is so great for business because the bottom line is what is important to every business. We are an expensive nation to employ, we have unions, very strong labour laws. So again why would a large global corporation choose Ireland over India if we don’t offer incentives of our own.

They want to tax high net worth individuals. Some Americans disavow their American citizenship to avoid paying tax. High net worth individuals will always find ways around this so the last thing any nation wants is for high net worth individuals to leave as they take their capital with them, pay tax to another nation and let’s face it. It is not the ordinary people that pay the bulk of the tax it is the top 10pc and if they move. We are really big trouble. The top 10pc(who are highly mobile) pay 61pc of taxes - https://igees.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Income-Dynamics-Mobility-in-Ireland-Evidence-from-Tax-Records-Microdata.pdf

Jinglejangle69

Do people still believe we will get 13 billion fro. apple and its all ours???

Seriously gullible people.