Thinking of Voting Sinn Fein - Should I?

endacl

Sweet.Science wrote: »

SF have promised to lower the pension age back to 65(lets forget they raised it in NI for a second )

They are also scrapping the USC charge for earnings under 30k

They are building thousands of houses

Increasing childcare subsidies

Thats to name a few


Can someone tell me where they are getting the extra few billion from?

I presume me? Because their voting base don’t have the cash...

machaseh

Mortelaro wrote: »

That presupposes things can change
What do you do when they can't and won't?
What do you do when the builders won't come home because the cost of living is too high compared to wherever they are
What do you do when the nurses won't come home because the cost of living is too high and they can't get a house?
What do you do when all unions demand the deal the nurses get to persuade them home?
What do you do when income tax take falls because theres no incentive to do overtime due to tax rises?
What do you do when the EU tell you to cease and desist breaching your 3% budget deficit limit as a result?

Rose tinted beer goggles looking at Mary Lou and seeing a super model won't tell you what to do
What do you do?

How about lowering the rent and building affordable housing , mister corporate right winger?

machaseh

endacl wrote: »

I presume me? Because their voting base don’t have the cash...

How about :

- apple and other big corporations
- the highest earners and billionaires (nope not yourself buddy )
- EU funds which are currently not fully being tapped into due to incompetent politicians

And for the love of God I hope they will legalize , tax and regulate cannabis
The sheer amount of tax money one could earn from that would be astounding. But I don't know Sinn feins stance on that.

I Am The Law

endacl wrote: »

I presume me? Because their voting base don’t have the cash...

About time too.

Wanderer78

christy c wrote:

I don't think it's really possible, nor would it really make sense. There are many reliefs available (mostly justified IMO).

I disagree there, the idea of partial payments with stocks and shares, then utilise the use of sovereign wealth funds from there, has been proposed by David mcwilliams a long time ago, he's had very positive feedback on this, including from organisations such as the financial times, the ft believing, this is an extremely good way of dealing with the issue, but unfortunately Ireland, currently isn't open to such ideas, and we re backing ourselves into a corner, producing strong oppositions on the matter. I personally do believe this will become an extremely serious issue going forward, eventually forcing us to enact rather radical policies, which potentially could introduce severe instabilities into our economy

machaseh

rdwight wrote: »

Machaseh, on the slim possibility that you are not a troll...



I presume you are aware that for SF the aspiration of a United Ireland trumps all other policies?






How policing gets done is a function of political power in all states. If you want an example of how SF, in power, could undermine security then google "Special Criminal Court"

One of the cases you'll find referred to in the SCC Wikipedia entry is the Jerry McCabe murder.

If you want to know how SF viewed this murder goggle "mcauley ferris". While you're at it, google "Martin Ferris" and "Dessie Ellis" to see how distanced SF are from the IRA. And while you're at it, google "Whitey Bulger" to see the kind of Irish-American patriots who supported Martin Ferris in his the quest for a United Ireland.

I don't know about the Netherlands, but in Ireland we have, as far as I know, only one statue to a person who died during World War II. Unfortunately it is to a Nazi collaborator. Unfortunately he is a particular hero of Mary Lou's.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2003/sep/07/bloodysunday.northernireland

It particilarly irks me because I often pass the statue. Around the corner from Fairview Park is a (much smaller) memorial plaque to Jack Nalty, who died in Spain fighting the same fascists that Sean Russell was happy to collaborate with a couple of years later. If you read the article you will notice that, yes, Mary Lou managed to present herself at its unveiling. Hypocrisy in action.
https://rebelbreeze.wordpress.com/2018/09/27/east-wall-remembers-anti-fasciist-brigadista-jack-nalty/

Are there any statues to Nationaal-Socialistische Beweging members in the Netherlands. How would you feel about a modern political leader who paid homage to such a statue?

and so on... and so on... and so on..

I fully support Irish reunification. I'll look into those articles later when I have the time. But to be quite honest with you, this strange obsession with the past is something I never understood about the Irish.

I prefer to look at the future. And I see Sinn Féin as by far the best way forward.

In the Netherlands discussions about politics are about their plans and the here and now, and not about whatever they might have done in world war two
Nobody cares honestly. We are progressive and not stuck in the past like the Irish are.

I honestly don't give a sh*te about which revealing of a statue of some historical figure Mary Lou attended . I care about her policies for Ireland which will make my life here better. Maybe even to the extent that I could stay and perhaps get a passport once my country finally sinks into the sea (as no, we are not oblivious to climate change ). As the country is run right now I can't see myself staying for much more than two years

Mortelaro

machaseh wrote: »

How about lowering the rent and building affordable housing , mister corporate right winger?

What if you haven't quarter enough skilled builders to do that and they dont want to come back,,which is the case

How much grace do you give SF to fix that problem (whilst they're creating others) ,5 years? 10?

It's not right wing you know to mention the herds of elephants in the room when it comes to notions of snap your fingers,Sing hallelujah and so many things will change under Sinn Féin, they can't and they wont
It would be less boring I suppose until the bill arrives

christy c

Wanderer78 wrote: »

I disagree there, the idea of partial payments with stocks and shares, then utilise the use of sovereign wealth funds from there, has been proposed by David mcwilliams a long time ago, he's had very positive feedback on this, including from organisations such as the financial times, the ft believing, this is an extremely good way of dealing with the issue, but unfortunately Ireland, currently isn't open to such ideas, and we re backing ourselves into a corner, producing strong oppositions on the matter. I personally do believe this will become an extremely serious issue going forward, eventually forcing us to enact rather radical policies, which potentially could introduce severe instabilities into our economy

Using my example of the company losing €1m in one year, the idea of taxing them at 12.5% in the following years doesn't make sense. It's just appealing to people who don't want to look in to the detail.

Wanderer78

christy c wrote: »

Using my example of the company losing €1m in one year, the idea of taxing them at 12.5% in the following years doesn't make sense. It's just appealing to people who don't want to look in to the detail.

i trust the opinions of people such as mcwilliams to crunch the figures, id imagine most large corporations could easily afford to pay 12.5% revenue annually, without it seriously affecting their business model, i do think this should be partially paid in stocks and shares, as most wealth in such corporations is stored in this format, i.e. its a wealth we re not currently tapping into, and we might also convince them to stay around longer, if we re effectively forced to increase the overall rate in the future, even though id imagine it would introduce its own issues

El Tarangu

machaseh wrote: »

And for the love of God I hope they will legalize , tax and regulate cannabis.
[..]But I don't know Sinn feins stance on that.

Well, you will be happy to know that Sinn Féin take a very pragmatic approach to the monetisation possibilities offered by the drugs trade.

Fol20

machaseh wrote: »

How about lowering the rent and building affordable housing , mister corporate right winger?

And how do you suggest this. We all want something but how do we get there is the important question.

joe40

Mortelaro wrote: »

What if you haven't quarter enough skilled builders to do that and they dont want to come back,,which is the case

How much grace do you give SF to fix that problem (whilst they're creating others) ,5 years? 10?

It's not right wing you know to mention the herds of elephants in the room when it comes to notions of snap your fingers,Sing hallelujah and so many things will change under Sinn Féin, they can't and they wont
It would be less boring I suppose until the bill arrives

Every political party face the same problems.
I don't think anyone really thinks Sinn Fein have some magic bullet to solve all our problems and we all know manifesto are aspirational. That combined with the fact there will be a coalition of some sort no one party will get to implement all their policies.
I'm giving Sinn Fein a vote this time, I agree high earners should pay more tax.
The corporation tax is fine but all companies should pay. Ireland as a tax have won't be tolerated much longer by the EU.
At the same time, regardless of who is in government the problems we have are complex with no easy answers.

Fol20

machaseh wrote: »

How about :

- apple and other big corporations
- the highest earners and billionaires (nope not yourself buddy )
- EU funds which are currently not fully being tapped into due to incompetent politicians

And for the love of God I hope they will legalize , tax and regulate cannabis
The sheer amount of tax money one could earn from that would be astounding. But I don't know Sinn feins stance on that.

I agree with you on weed. Make it safe and tax the bejesus our of it. Mind you based on policies we still have here and the sniggering going on by mm when lv said he took some doesn’t shine a good light for this to ever happen.

christy c

Wanderer78 wrote: »

i trust the opinions of people such as mcwilliams to crunch the figures, id imagine most large corporations could easily afford to pay 12.5% revenue annually, without it seriously affecting their business model, i do think this should be partially paid in stocks and shares, as most wealth in such corporations is stored in this format, i.e. its a wealth we re not currently tapping into, and we might also convince them to stay around longer, if we re effectively forced to increase the overall rate in the future, even though id imagine it would introduce its own issues

You are not addressing the point. If you set up a company and loose 1m in year 1, then make 1m in year 2, you have made no profit over the lifetime of the company. To charge your company €125,000 in the second year would not make sense and doing so would only appeal to people who don't know what they are talking about.

Nobody is needed to crunch numbers here in this simple example.

Wanderer78

christy c wrote: »

You are not addressing the point. If you set up a company and loose 1m in year 1, then make 1m in year 2, you have made no profit over the lifetime of the company. To charge your company €125,000 in the second year would not make sense and doing so would only appeal to people who don't know what they are talking about.

Nobody is needed to crunch numbers here in this simple example.

id imagine in most large corporations, your exercise is meaningless, but i do get your logic, most large corporations would have multiples of billions in net worth in assets such as stock and shares. i dont think the financial workings of such large corporations can be simplified into an exercise such as you ve proposed

Diceicle

christy c wrote: »

How? Only way I could see to do that would be to tax 12.5% of accounting profit, but there is potential problems with that (possible differences between IFRS and FRS 102?).

Also do you not allow companies to carry forward losses? Sounds harsh.

David McWilliams proposes developing a sovereign wealth fund by instead of taking the 12.5%. (well, trying to get that) that we should be taking shares in the likes of twitter, fb, Google etc
It's an interesting idea.

christy c

Wanderer78 wrote: »

id imagine in most large corporations, your exercise is meaningless, but i do get your logic, most large corporations would have multiples of billions in net worth in assets such as stock and shares. i dont think the financial workings of such large corporations can be simplified into an exercise such as you ve proposed

No, but I was using a simple example for illustrative purposes. It could be that the Irish arm looses 100k one year, and then makes 1m the following year. In which case they'd be taxed on 900k. So calling for 12.5% to satisfy people who don't know what they are taking about is pointless.

christy c

Diceicle wrote: »

David McWilliams proposes developing a sovereign wealth fund by instead of taking the 12.5%. (well, trying to get that) that we should be taking shares in the likes of twitter, fb, Google etc
It's an interesting idea.

I'm not familiar with his proposal, but is he saying take shares in lieu of cash? Interesting idea alright, but you can imagine people like Pearse Doherty with "Twitter paid zero cash on 100 million profit".

Wanderer78

christy c wrote: »

No, but I was using a simple example for illustrative purposes. It could be that the Irish arm looses 100k one year, and then makes 1m the following year. In which case they'd be taxed on 900k. So calling for 12.5% to satisfy people who don't know what they are taking about is pointless.

so companies should pay less than 12.5%, if their profits fall? how many large corporations cant pay the 12.5%? i do think the partial payment of stocks and shares is potentially a far more stable model for both corporations and governments.

who doesnt know what theyre talking about?

jos28

I think that voting for SF is futile. They are fielding around 40 candidates, even if every one of those are deemed elected they still need another 40 to form a government. Either FG or FF will be the largest party after the election, they won't play with SF so it's pointless.
SF TDs will be opposition TDs with no power - simple

christy c

Wanderer78 wrote: »

so companies should pay less than 12.5%, if their profits fall? how many large corporations cant pay the 12.5%? i do think the partial payment of stocks and shares is potentially a far more stable model for both corporations and governments.

who doesnt know what theyre talking about?

I've just explained how a company could end up paying less than 12.5% in one year based on losses in prior years, nothing legally or morally wrong with that.

What do you want them to pay 12.5% of? Accounting profit? And FRS 102 or IFRS?

I'd say most people do not know what they are talking about when it comes to corporate tax matters, because they don't have a need to know. Same as I could not tell you how to treat a medical problem for example.

Wanderer78

christy c wrote: »

I'm not familiar with his proposal, but I'd he saying take shares in lieu of cash? Interesting idea alright, but yooi can imagine people like Pearse Doherty with "Twitter paid zero cash on 100 million profit".

its well worth looking into, its a very interesting idea, hes been expanding it since he came up with it, but unfortunately, ireland currently isnt open to such radical ideas in such matters, we ve decided keeping the status quo, the status quo is best, i suspect this wont end well for us all

amadangomor

Mother of murdered Paul Quinn on Newstalk there. If anyone is thinking of voting for them don't forget about the scumbag murdering thugs who still have control of this party.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Paul_Quinn

"On 20 October 2007, a native of Cullyhanna, County Armagh, Paul Quinn, then 21 years old, was lured to a farm at Tullycoora, near Oram in County Monaghan, where three of his friends were held hostage. When he arrived at the farm, a group of some ten or more men beat him with iron and nail-studded bars for upwards of half an hour, breaking every major bone in his body. Quinn was taken at around 18:00 to Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital, Drogheda, where he died two hours later."

pjohnson

amadangomor wrote: »

Mother of murdered Paul Quinn on Newstalk there. If anyone is thinking of voting for them don't forget about the scumbag murdering thugs who still have control of this party.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Paul_Quinn

:pac:

Accusations must be true.

More recently look at what FG have done and vote for anyone but FG.

thequarefellow

jos28 wrote: »

I think that voting for SF is futile. They are fielding around 40 candidates, even if every one of those are deemed elected they still need another 40 to form a government. Either FG or FF will be the largest party after the election, they won't play with SF so it's pointless.
SF TDs will be opposition TDs with no power - simple

I hear this kind of argument a lot and I find it a little strange. Surely you should vote in favour of a party or candidates that push policy that you agree with regardless of whether they will win or not? I don't care that Sinn Fein will not have enough candidates to form a government. I mean, surely if enough candidates voted for them they could form a coalition government with others. Or at the least a healthy opposition. A coalition is what we are looking at anyway if we follow the polls. They have my vote anyway. I simply can't vote for a party that lets a blatant fraudster and lier like Alan Farrell stand (among many other reasons). And when I think of Michael Martin's Fianna Fail I still, and always will, shudder at the thought of Bertie Ahern.

christy c

Wanderer78 wrote: »

its well worth looking into, its a very interesting idea, hes been expanding it since he came up with it, but unfortunately, ireland currently isnt open to such radical ideas in such matters, we ve decided keeping the status quo, the status quo is best, i suspect this wont end well for us all

Yeah could be worth looking in to.

Would be better for individuals if Corporate tax rates could be agreed globally, but that's not going to happen in my lifetime. But Ireland would take a hit economically as we would no longer be "out bidding" other countries.

amadangomor

pjohnson wrote: »

:pac:

Accusations must be true.

More recently look at what FG have done and vote for anyone but FG.

Away with you with the fake naivity:rolleyes:. Truth is that these scumbags still have a say in a supposedly democratic party

Fann Linn

amadangomor wrote: »

Mother of murdered Paul Quinn on Newstalk there. If anyone is thinking of voting for them don't forget about the scumbag murdering thugs who still have control of this party.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Paul_Quinn

"On 20 October 2007, a native of Cullyhanna, County Armagh, Paul Quinn, then 21 years old, was lured to a farm at Tullycoora, near Oram in County Monaghan, where three of his friends were held hostage. When he arrived at the farm, a group of some ten or more men beat him with iron and nail-studded bars for upwards of half an hour, breaking every major bone in his body. Quinn was taken at around 18:00 to Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital, Drogheda, where he died two hours later."

Did ye go to the PSNi or Gardai with this info that you have?

pjohnson

amadangomor wrote: »

Away with you with the fake naivity:rolleyes:. Truth is that these scumbags still have a say in a supposedly democratic party

So is conspiracy of past events the best FG have?


Suppose they cant really use much from their time in charge :pac:

jos28

thequarefellow wrote: »

I hear this kind of argument a lot and I find it a little strange. Surely you should vote in favour of a party or candidates that push policy that you agree with regardless of whether they will win or not? I don't care that Sinn Fein will not have enough candidates to form a government. I mean, surely if enough candidates voted for them they could form a coalition government with others. Or at the least a healthy opposition. A coalition is what we are looking at anyway if we follow the polls. They have my vote anyway. I simply can't vote for a party that lets a blatant fraudster and lier like Alan Farrell stand (among many other reasons). And when I think of Michael Martin's Fianna Fail I still, and always will, shudder at the thought of Bertie Ahern.

I suppose the point I was trying to make is that they will not be able to form part of a coalition as the main parties will not go into Government with SF. At the end of the day it's a numbers game whether we like it or not. No matter how healthy an opposition exists, those in opposition don't have power.