How about get a degree where there are jobs instead of crying about it.

lainey_d_123

LirW wrote: »

Not every employer is happy with the idea of mainly remote staff and if you have a mortgage to pay you won't make ends meet with 5 hours of English teaching a day when you're trained in a field that translates poorly into remote work.
There are enough people out there depending on their jobs that have to fight for a single remote day per week.
I feel your view comes from someone single with very few commitments while mine is not single with many commitments.
A young grad has little problem being flexible and moving around, a mature grad faces different challenges.

I do understand where you're coming from but most of these things are choices. I have few commitments because I prioritised trying to get into a stable career path. I made plenty of sacrifices for that, including not having had kids yet (and maybe never will now) and having to move away from my entire support network.

I can see why someone would choose to commute over teaching English online if their job paid much better, but why isn't the fella who has proudly been on the dole for the last three years doing something like this? There are people all over the world doing bits and pieces of work to pay the bills so they can do their creative stuff on the side. My cousin sells her artwork online (and for quite a bit of money) and she does it on top of a full time job. She lives in rural Co. Fermanagh, hardly a mine of opportunities and networking. I used to house share with quite a successful musician (he was flown out to play all over the world) and he had a part time job in Starbucks to make sure he could pay his rent.

I know it's not the same for everybody but there are very few situations in which it's OK for an able-bodied, college educated adult to choose to be on the dole for years on end rather than work.

Airyfairy12

The problem isnt the degrees, the problem is that employers in Ireland dont value educated workers.
or example. I have a friend who completed an undergrad in fine art and a masters in museum management. She lives in an are where there are allot of local big and small galleries and museums, she got an internship in one of them when she finished college but cant get paid work. These same galleries take volunteers and blow ins on CE schemes to do the job she's fully experienced and qualified to do, she's also really passionate about working in that field but they wont employ anyone to take the job. They will employ family or close friends - qualified or not, like most things in Ireland everything is a closed circle.
Another friend who has a BA in art and textiles with a teaching qualification didnt get an art teaching job that she interviewed for in her local adult learning center, the job went to someone who had no qualifications, they knew someone on the panel and had connections to management in the center.
Also, keep in mind, an arts degree shows someone has discipline and ability to work and learn independently, think creatively and will have very good writing and research skills, these are all valuable skills for most jobs that employers overlook.
If employers where actually willing to give people a chance and offer qualified people paid jobs, we'd see a massive reduction in unemployment of graduates.

Airyfairy12

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

If employers where actually willing to give people a chance and offer qualified people paid jobs, we'd see a massive reduction in unemployment of graduates.

Of course They would... but that's not going to happen because fresh graduates are usually too foolish to prepare properly for employment. They rely on their degree, or initial portfolio of work to carry them forward.

Employers want employees that do more than the average graduate. They want to see someone who breathes passion and skill into their chosen career. But most of all, they want to see someone who has made some sacrifices to be there. That they've been willing to be different. Not by being a Goth or some alternative behavior, but to show that they've gone beyond the limits of their major course study.

I've a friend who owns a gallery, and she's always complaining at the lack of truly original work. Most "artists" who come to her, are copying someone elses style. It's like the Chinese approach to technology. Take something like the iPhone, reverse engineer it, and then release a pile of copies with minor changes.

It's the same with graduates. When I handled hiring for my firm (Finance), we were looking for graduates who had sought experience while being in University. We didn't want graduates who had simply passed exams, or even those top of their class. We wanted those who had interned in their first year of summer holidays. Those who had tried publishing papers on financial strategy on internet magazines. Those who put some passion into their career progression before graduation was even on the table. Invariably, we ended up hiring people who weren't in the top of their class, but showed greater potential for growth.

The point is that Irish graduates look at a degree as being a golden key. That the degree is all they need for employment, and that they shouldn't need to do much more beyond that. (I'm not talking about Student union, or charity volunteering which is useless) In the US, or Asia, students will go out of their way to find ways to acquire and promote skills/experience that is not available within their major.. Irish graduates (typically) don't.

vriesmays

Deleted User wrote: »

I've a friend who owns a gallery, and she's always complaining at the lack of truly original work. Most "artists" who come to her, are copying someone elses style.

Same with Ireland's cinema and indie bands.

Yurt2

Someone who publishes financial strategy documents online during their summer break from college instead of chasing tail in California is destined to be divorced and alone by their mid-40s, sitting in a corner cubicle with a damp air of sadness around them. Possibly doing their best to keep their alcohol problem a secret from their co-workers.

HR automatons might like seeing that guff on a CV, but I'd rather work with someone with a well-rounded personality.

samjames

I'm a qualified joiner but looking back I would like to have done a degree in Psychology and followed that path,

Ash.J.Williams

banie01 wrote: »

An arts degree and a master's in Literature!
Well done...

The foresight to realise that such esoteric qualifications are of fúck all use in gaining somewhat local employment in a rural part of Co Clare...

Well that doesn't say much for an arts degree is shaping one for actual adulthood!

I could do more with his degree than he could

Yurt!

Yurt! wrote: »

Someone who publishes financial strategy documents online during their summer break from college instead of chasing tail in California is destined to be divorced and alone by their mid-40s, sitting in a corner cubicle with a damp air of sadness around them. Possibly doing their best to keep their alcohol problem a secret from their co-workers.

Rubbish. It's an outdated perception. The guy who prepares for employment, gets better opportunites, makes more money, gets invited to more events, does better at networking, and generally gets exposed to more opportunities for personal growth.

I've seen it happen. Your summer break guy is suited to sales, and probably still limps around from the series of STDs he got by playing. The financial strategy guy will go partner, and he'll get laid because companies/managers will want to retain him.

HR automatons might like seeing that guff on a CV, but I'd rather work with someone with a well-rounded personality.

Sure, but the truth is that you're talking about unrealistic people. Most people have a personality regardless of whether they've studied hard or played hard.

Yurt2

Deleted User wrote: »

Rubbish. It's an outdated perception. The guy who prepares for employment, gets better opportunites, makes more money, gets invited to more events, does better at networking, and generally gets exposed to more opportunities for personal growth.

I've seen it happen. Your summer break guy is suited to sales, and probably still limps around from the series of STDs he got by playing. The financial strategy guy will go partner, and he'll get laid because companies/managers will want to retain him.



Sure, but the truth is that you're talking about unrealistic people. Most people have a personality regardless of whether they've studied hard or played hard.

It's the people with the soft-skills that stay the course. If you want someone in a silo doing a linear job without breaking any proverbial teacups, fine, hire the kid that gave himself rickets spending all summer writing some esoteric finance paper that maybe a half a dozen people on a subreddit read.

If you want someone to grow with your company and lead, hire the person with a well-rounded personality, enough braincells to adapt and learn reasonably quickly, and crucially, someone that people in your company want to work alongside and that clients like dealing with.

The correct hire is rarely example 1, and it's almost always example 2.

cloudatlas

samjames wrote: »

I'm a qualified joiner but looking back I would like to have done a degree in Psychology and followed that path,

Careful according to the people on this thread that is whingeing. Whingeing also takes place in my local Irish bar in the U.K. every weekend when someone asks 'so what brings you here?'.

riclad

Many writers and singers worked in cafe,s , shop,s retail before they could make a living .
i read article today on salon.com ,it said any people in america have student debt after getting a degree 80k plus .
i don,t think you can call your self a playright unless you have at least one play performed on a stage by a professional company .
The problem i see is if most adults have a degree well then it,s value is limited ,if its not a technical or science degree .

Yurt!

Yurt! wrote: »

It's the people with the soft-skills that stay the course. If you want someone in a silo doing a linear job without breaking any proverbial teacups, fine, hire the kid that gave himself rickets spending all summer writing some esoteric finance paper that maybe a half a dozen people on a subreddit read.

If you want someone to grow with your company and lead, hire the person with a well-rounded personality, enough braincells to adapt and learn reasonably quickly, and crucially, someone that people in your company want to work alongside and that clients like dealing with.

The correct hire is rarely example 1, and it's almost always example 2.

It entirely depends on the industry and what skills are required. My background is finance which tends to require solid knowledge of general practices, and some technical skills for people who want to skip the low level positions. Soft skills are useful, but they're of lesser importance.

The reason I know this is because coming out of university, I was lacking in soft skills. I have a shaking disorder which had encouraged me to be shy, and withdrawn from social interactions. While my scores for my diploma were rather pathetic, I had a lot of knowledge from my own reading and my understanding of the scope for financial practices was better than many already working.

The thing is that those soft skills were something relatively easy to learn. For my first few positions, soft skills were of secondary importance. I was emphatic due to my experiences from being an outsider, and I was good at reading people from my attempts to avoid attention. When I became a manager, I learned most of the soft skills needed, and the remainder came through experience.

When hiring, the various companies I worked for tended to aim for the same types of graduates. Solid technical skills, and a good general awareness. The sales types generally weren't wanted because they tended to be flaky. Same with high personality types who tended to miss important details which resulted in expensive mistakes.

The point of all this is that different industries seek a variety of attitudes... but those who focus so much on their degrees that they learn little else, generally, get placed behind those who wandered a bit.... unless it's a highly technical subject like accounting or law.

Airyfairy12

Deleted User wrote: »

Of course They would... but that's not going to happen because fresh graduates are usually too foolish to prepare properly for employment. They rely on their degree, or initial portfolio of work to carry them forward.

I dont know what you mean? How are fresh graduates foolish? They may be lacking in real working experience but they cant get experience if employers wont give them any. I dont think they expect their degrees to be a golden ticket but it should at least help them get a job at a junior level. They most definitely have more experience and better knowledge starting out than someone starting out without a degree so I dont see them as foolish, we all have to start somewhere.

Deleted User wrote: »

Employers want employees that do more than the average graduate. They want to see someone who breathes passion and skill into their chosen career. But most of all, they want to see someone who has made some sacrifices to be there. That they've been willing to be different. Not by being a Goth or some alternative behavior, but to show that they've gone beyond the limits of their major course study.

Surely if someone decides to live with little to no income to study a particular subject area, spend thousands doing so while also engaging in unpaid work experience, it shows dedication, passion and sacrifice.
Dont know where goths come into it?

Deleted User wrote: »

I've a friend who owns a gallery, and she's always complaining at the lack of truly original work. Most "artists" who come to her, are copying someone elses style. It's like the Chinese approach to technology. Take something like the iPhone, reverse engineer it, and then release a pile of copies with minor changes.

What does this have to do with graduates not being able to get work? You dont have to go to art college to be a practicing artist, most art graduates would prefer to go into teaching, lecturing, design areas, curating, gallery ownership like your friend, museum work, residencies and work as paid artists through the council where allot of them, if lucky enough, get funded to give workshops in schools and communities. Often they will make art on the side, outside their day job working hours - I think this shows allot of dedication and passion to be fair.

Deleted User wrote: »

It's the same with graduates. When I handled hiring for my firm (Finance), we were looking for graduates who had sought experience while being in University. We didn't want graduates who had simply passed exams, or even those top of their class. We wanted those who had interned in their first year of summer holidays. Those who had tried publishing papers on financial strategy on internet magazines. Those who put some passion into their career progression before graduation was even on the table. Invariably, we ended up hiring people who weren't in the top of their class, but showed greater potential for growth.

Students and graduates cant get experience if no one will give it them, the ones who get the experience are often the ones who have connections - through no merit of their own or theyre in financial positions to engage in unpaid internships - often being supported by their families. It's unfair, it doesnt show a lack of passion or drive on the other graduates part, just shows theyre not as privileged, its harder for them. The graduates with the financial support and connections sail through.

Deleted User wrote: »

The point is that Irish graduates look at a degree as being a golden key. That the degree is all they need for employment, and that they shouldn't need to do much more beyond that. (I'm not talking about Student union, or charity volunteering which is useless) In the US, or Asia, students will go out of their way to find ways to acquire and promote skills/experience that is not available within their major.. Irish graduates (typically) don't.

The reason for that is because Ireland is full of nepotism, most of the graduates that are acquiring experience and skill are doing so because their parents know someone who can give them the experience. In the US and Asia college education is valued by employers, theyre willing to give graduates the experience they need which promote their skills.

Do you think maybe when these graduates are applying to jobs in your company, thats them actually trying to get the skills and experience they need. When every employer is like you and has the same attitude as you, where does that leave the young graduates? Every door is shut. Their only option is to go abroad where their education is valued.
There used to be a time when employers would take on inexperienced staff and help them learn.
Now companies wont take the time to do this, instead they expect educated and experienced employers while also ****ting all over young people and their degrees, they have to start out somewhere just like you did at one time.

Airyfairy12

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

I dont know what you mean? How are fresh graduates foolish? They may be lacking in real working experience but they cant get experience if employers wont give them any. I dont think they expect their degrees to be a golden ticket but it should at least help them get a job at a junior level. They most definitely have more experience and better knowledge starting out than someone starting out without a degree so I dont see them as foolish, we all have to start somewhere.

Its' well known that many degrees are out of date, or missing modules that are important for the particular positions that students want. Instead, of studying outside of classes, seeking mentors, etc they simply focus on their course content believing that the name of their degree will be enough.

They're foolish in not planning ahead. In year two, most students should already be researching the companies they want to work for, understand the positions they want, and what skills are required for those positions... and contact the companies to establish a link to find out anything that might improve their chances of obtaining employment. Few students prepare properly.

Surely if someone decides to live with little to no income to study a particular subject area, spend thousands doing so while also engaging in unpaid work experience, it shows dedication, passion and sacrifice.
Dont know where goths come into it?

Sure. It does show all of those things... but your response is different to what I stated... I said that students need to show that they've done more than simply studying for a degree. "that they've gone beyond the limits of their major course study"

The goth reference is about superficial changes based on appearances. It was something common when I was in University. People who acted out in University but the moment they graduated they switched completely. It was a superficial movement for many people...

What does this have to do with graduates not being able to get work?

The next paragraph explained my example.

You dont have to go to art college to be a practicing artist <snip>

My posts were in relation to graduates in general and in particular to business/finance.. Which i assumed was obvious. I wasn't talking about arts majors because I've never been one or worked in that industry (although I have handled their accounts before)

Students and graduates cant get experience if no one will give it them, the ones who get the experience are often the ones who have connections - through no merit of their own or theyre in financial positions to engage in unpaid internships - often being supported by their families. It's unfair, it doesnt show a lack of passion or drive on the other graduates part, just shows theyre not as privileged, its harder for them. The graduates with the financial support and connections sail through.

Students get hung up on experience as if it's a necessary requirement. It's not. Most companies are aware that students have limited opportunities to gain useful experience.. which is why interviews usually focus on exploring what students know, and more importantly, what they don't know. Finding out what the company would need to teach the graduate before they're ready to work independently.

The reason for that is because Ireland is full of nepotism, most of the graduates that are acquiring experience and skill are doing so because their parents know someone who can give them the experience. In the US and Asia college education is valued by employers, theyre willing to give graduates the experience they need which promote their skills.

Rubbish. That's just an excuse. nepotism? It's relatively rare in comparison with the overall population of country. There were 300 students in my major, and perhaps, 4 of them had companies lined up through their family connections (yes, we kept in touch to compare jobs/salaries acquired).

Do you think maybe when these graduates are applying to jobs in your company, thats them actually trying to get the skills and experience they need. When every employer is like you and has the same attitude as you, where does that leave the young graduates? Every door is shut. Their only option is to go abroad where their education is valued.

Except, of course, that the companies I worked for didn't look for experience from Graduates because graduates generally don't have any. Internships rarely count as useful experience unless they did it in the company they're applying to. The companies I worked for sought students who had attempted to learn more than what their universities deigned to teach them. That they showed an awareness of the industry, our competitors, and the challenges facing the company. Basically students who did some research. You seem to want to find excuses for students...

There used to be a time when employers would take on inexperienced staff and help them learn.
Now companies wont take the time to do this, instead they expect educated and experienced employers while also ****ting all over young people and their degrees, they have to start out somewhere just like you did at one time.

I've done corporate training, and mentoring. Companies will still take on inexperienced staff and train them up. What they won't do is take someone who doesn't have a clue... apart from what's in their textbooks. Companies want students who make a bloody effort.

vriesmays

samjames wrote: »

I'm a qualified joiner but looking back I would like to have done a degree in Psychology and followed that path,

You'd be studying years for a job and doing unpaid voluntary work. A psychology degree isn't enough., Most in your classes will be women. The more interesting areas in psychology have no jobs in Ireland. Vacancies are mostly in counselling and child work. You'd be restricted in the hours you can work meaning an average wage.

marieholmfan

Yurt! wrote: »

Someone who publishes financial strategy documents online during their summer break from college instead of chasing tail in California is destined to be divorced and alone by their mid-40s, sitting in a corner cubicle with a damp air of sadness around them. Possibly doing their best to keep their alcohol problem a secret from their co-workers.

HR automatons might like seeing that guff on a CV, but I'd rather work with someone with a well-rounded personality.

I know a guy who spent his summers researching banking law when he was in his very early 20s. Multi Multi millionaire now with a pleasant wife and reasonably normal if very pampered children.


That said the premise of the whole conversation is rubbish and driven by jealousy.

The subject of the article isn't whining and has a job. Playwright. His play is on in the Project.

marieholmfan

One Post Wonder wrote: »

Yer man wants to be a writer? Well yeah then of course he'll have to slum it. And then either make it as a writer or eat a lead sandwich. Maybe he'll do both like Hemingway? Art comes from suffering.

Ffs, that lad is soft.

He's done it.
His play is on the project right now.

banie01

optogirl wrote: »

If you heard a young child saying that their dream job was to be a writer/journalist/editor/copywriter etc but they weren't going to try because they are from a rural part of Co Clare would you feel that they were incredibly prudent in coming to such a conclusion or a bit sad that they felt that way?

You seem to be a little confused as to what went on with the person in the OP.

One can be a successful writer anywhere in the world, being an editor is slightly or copywriter is slightly harder to do on a remote basis.

The OP did his degree/masters and then got the hump because he was unable to find 1st of all suitable employment.
Now unless I'm missing something, I don't know how many publishing houses have editorial or copywriting staff based in West Clare?
Do you?
How much local employment would be available to him in west Clare to allow him to fully exercise his qualifications?

Then he couldn't gain "any" form of employment in Clare.
In a competitive and largely seasonal employment market, he couldn't secure employment.

Why?
Why were any other applicants better suited than him?

Anyone can gain any qualification they wish, expecting to have a masters in litreature provide you a job in your locale, when your locale is a rural village much less a publishing powerhouse...

Is in the most gentle of terms niave.

Chase your dreams, of course!
But when you can't make thatdream of being a writer/editor/playwright come through in deepest darkest Clare!

Its not Society's fault that you might eventually have to fúck off to a locale where demand for such skills exist rather than hoping to make a breakthrough in the Wesht.

I don't see why you couldn't be a writer in West Clare..

banie01

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't see why you couldn't be a writer in West Clare..

Neither do I It can be done anywhere as can earning a living from it if one has talent or connections.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't see why you couldn't be a writer in West Clare..

Pretty much. I'm working on my third book. I haven't reached the point where my writing supports me, but I do know people who have done so.

It could just be that he's unwilling to sell himself. Anyone wanting to write a book that will generate some sort of income needs to be aware, and willing to play up to those who buy books.

vriesmays

A bookshop in Grafton Street is selling his book of plays so the lad's a success.

i dont know if that statement is necessarily true, for any given value of success

but he got his name in the paper anyways

donaghs

marieholmfan wrote: »

He's done it.
His play is on the project right now.

He still needs to earn a living though. People may not want to admit it, but theatre is a bit of a niche interest these days (unless its something like "Ross O'Carroll Kelly" or Panto). From the article it sounds like his writing isn't bringing in the dough.

ILoveYourVibes

Fccwontletmebe wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/abroad/austerity-forced-me-out-of-ireland-now-i-don-t-know-how-to-return-1.4157890?fbclid=IwAR2qVpxxaaO54E-O2vWFjkhfgRKTRO8Q90BQ_GtLgDVmQTqlgzCGUZuaq7s

Things like this really irritate me. Sense of entitlement culture.

He immigrated rather than be on the dole. What is entitled about that?

vriesmays

To get a stage play produced in Ireland's current me-too, gender quota, waking the feminists climate in theatre is quite an achievement.

nkl12xtw5goz70

donaghs wrote: »

From the article it sounds like his writing isn't bringing in the dough.

It's not easy supporting yourself from writing fiction these days. Donal Ryan (The Spinning Heart) went back to his job in the public service after estimating that was getting around 40 cents for each copy of his book sold — not enough to pay the bills, even though his novel ended up on the Leaving Cert curriculum. Beyond mega-successes like J. K. Rowling or George R. R. Martin, the riches disappear quickly, and there just isn't the money in a writing career anymore that people imagine. Many writers end up teaching in MFA programs or taking up writer-in-residence positions at universities so that they can make ends meet.

El_Duderino 09

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

He immigrated rather than be on the dole. What is entitled about that?

Instead of getting money for free, he moved away from home, worked part time for money and part time for free as an intern. And still some people say he’s entitled.

They were cross when they thought he was a loser who’d never actually achieve getting a play produced. They were equally cross when they heard his hard work and sacrifice was beginning to pay off and he’s getting a play produced.

Begrudgers gonna’ begrudge.

Galwayguy35

Only thing that annoyed me was him thinking he is trendy with the hat on the top of his head, it just makes him look like a gimp.

Galwayguy35

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Only thing that annoyed me was him thinking he is trendy with the hat on the top of his head, it just makes him look like a gimp.

To be honest, i was more irritated when he considered moving to London as emigrating.. It's like moving to Dublin after living in the Midlands. The idea that he sacrificed so much to move to.... bam!... England. Yup. :rolleyes: it's just pathetic.