How about get a degree where there are jobs instead of crying about it.

KiKi III

vriesmays wrote: »

Artists Paul Gauguin was a stockbroker and Jeff Koons worked in Wall Street. Novelists Charles Dickens worked in a factory and Arthur Conan Doyle was a doctor. Composers Alexander Borodin was a chemist while Iannis Xenakis was an architect. Poets Robert Burns and Walt Whitman were both civil servants.

And I think they’d all agree that it’s a helluva lot harder to focus on creative pursuits when you also have a demanding full-time job.

KiKi III

I did an Arts degree that wasn’t very demanding. Most of my friends did Law and spent a lot of time in the library.

I wrote for the student paper in that time, I was involved in various societies and I was (hold back your contempt) involved with the SU.

An awful lot of what I learned during my degree (most of in fact) happened outside of lecture theatres. I don’t think that would have been possible in more demanding courses that get you “real jobs”. Though I have been gainfully employed consistently since graduation.

And I partied like a motherf*cker. Learned some life lessons from that too.

vriesmays

Have you bought your own house yet wth that arts degree.

KiKi III

vriesmays wrote: »

Have you bought your own house yet wth that arts degree.

No, but I hope to this year, and at that will buy at roughly the same age as friends who studied law, finance, engineering.

I could have bought over the last few years down home, but hoping to buy in Dublin which is difficult for reasons outside of my Arts degree.

vriesmays

When your law/finance/engineering friends are middle-aged they will be earning a lot more than now. Like most arts graduates you'll still be earning the same salary as now.

KiKi III

vriesmays wrote: »

When your law/finance/engineering friends are middle-aged they will be earning a lot more than now. Like most arts graduates you'll still be earning the same salary as now.

I love how you’re able to make this assessment of my personal finances while knowing exactly nothing about me except that my undergrad was an Arts degree. You don’t need a degree at all with a crystal ball like that.

Herb Powell

Fucck economic worship, the economy is a load of balls, the rich are getting richer while the rest of us "clearly aren't working hard enough" and argue about it.

Fucck off like.

vriesmays

KiKi III wrote: »

I love how you’re able to make this assessment of my personal finances while knowing exactly nothing about me except that my undergrad was an Arts degree. You don’t need a degree at all with a crystal ball like that.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-7473067/People-liberal-arts-worst-paid-professionals-UK.html

NSAman

vriesmays wrote: »

When your law/finance/engineering friends are middle-aged they will be earning a lot more than now. Like most arts graduates you'll still be earning the same salary as now.

That crystal ball will let you down again.

The auld Arts Degree is very useful in getting you prepared in life. Was it a waste of time for me? Nope.

And I do "very" nicely thank you compared to those that studied law/finance/architecture/engineering etc...;)

Any degree can be used as a stepping stone for career progression. The only people bound/tied to their major are the people lacking imagination and the ambition to succeed. I know a variety of people with Arts degrees who are working in managerial or other business/media roles.

I think the point is more that those who do art, or another soft degree, tend to stick to their major, and thus it's difficult for them to gain positions which pay well. It entirely depends on their interests. I have a friend who has a Degree in Fine art, but doesn't paint. She works for the national council and operates a gallery. Decent salary there. Whereas I know two other individuals with similar degrees who focused on producing Art, and they're on a minimum income, with occasional spikes of revenue. I also know people with Business and Finance degrees, working for KFC, and earning below the average for their degrees.

But any degree can be used to gain a position that pays well. At the end of the day, it depends on what the person focuses themselves on.

Ray Palmer

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Any degree can be used as a stepping stone for career progression etc...

It may help with HR or requirements to get an interview but not sure it is going to actually teach you anything helpful with working.

I studied civil engineering but ended up working in IT. More knowledge and experience of a graduate in computer sciences for a working environment.

As I consult I talk to a lot of different users at different levels in companies with differing education levels. Having a degree of any sort doesn't make you capable.

I worked with one women who was a part time lecturer assistant in an arts course. She actually became a lecturer later. I could simply not understand how incapable she was. The job involved working in a call centre and as a supervisor on shifts she had to monitor progress and make reports. Pretty straight forward system that counted individuals output on different projects. She had tto add up the information and state the average output and say how far the project was.
She didn't have to calculate the details but fill it into an excel sheet. She couldn't understand what she was doing. No idea what averages were and would fill in the detail wrong every time. We had to create a system so things would turn red when it was obviously wrong. Things like a project was 20% complete going to 400% done in one shift. She could only do things be wrote. She ended up with a massive book with minute detail on how to do things. If she didn't write it down she couldn't figure out what to do. They eventually let her go after giving her so many chances.

Generally I found those with arts degrees only had little or no understanding hard details and calculations. The very concepts of averages, medians etc... lost on them. Some were really good with people and others not but the degree didn't help them
This is life often

https://youtu.be/BKorP55Aqvg

Yurt2

vriesmays wrote: »

When your law/finance/engineering friends are middle-aged they will be earning a lot more than now. Like most arts graduates you'll still be earning the same salary as now.

Arts graduate here. I probably earn more than you. Vulgar thing to say, but you're being vulgar yourself so it's worth highlighting to you.

vriesmays

You think stating fact is vulgar. Read the link from above - is your degree really worth it.

Yurt2

vriesmays wrote: »

You think stating fact is vulgar. Read the link from above - is your degree really worth it.

Yes. Everyone in my cohort did very well for themselves; which isn't captured in your Daily Mail article.


Facts aren't vulgar, your attitude and ignorance is.

vriesmays

What ignorance. It's fact that most arts graduates don't earn as much as other graduates. Your and your silly friends don't affect the results of thousands of others.

Ray Palmer

Ray Palmer wrote: »

It may help with HR or requirements to get an interview but not sure it is going to actually teach you anything helpful with working.

Apart from technical degrees (engineering, science, medicine etc), extremely few degrees teach anything helpful with regards to working. It's simply too easy for degrees to fall behind the progression curve.

My own degree in Financial Management was useful for explaining concepts, but everything I have ever used while working (credit control, AR/AP, Negotiations, Management) I learned after I had left university.

I studied civil engineering but ended up working in IT. More knowledge and experience of a graduate in computer sciences for a working environment.

As I consult I talk to a lot of different users at different levels in companies with differing education levels. Having a degree of any sort doesn't make you capable.

I'd agree because that's not what I said...

Ray Palmer

Yurt! wrote: »

Yes. Everyone in my cohort did very well for themselves; which isn't captured in your Daily Mail article.


Facts aren't vulgar, your attitude and ignorance is.

I work with the civil servants at the moment. They have a grade employment structure. The 2nd lowest level has mostly hired arts degree people as new hires. The older staff doing the same jobs mostly don't have leaving certs.

There is a fast path process for those with degrees so they can be promoted quicker. They stopped allowing those with arts degrees from going to fast path without proving capable at the job first now.

When I was studying and doing 35 hrs in class with another 20hours on project work my friends doing arts had a lot less college time. They all work minor clerical jobs as do their former class mates.

My experience directly contradicts your claims along with what is reported about the degrees. Hard to find what you are saying is believable.

vriesmays

vriesmays wrote: »

What ignorance. It's fact that most arts graduates don't earn as much as other graduates. Your and your silly friends don't affect the results of thousands of others.

Well, lets see the statistics then. My guess is that you're dismissing others based on an assumption rather than definite knowledge.

I assume that this will include those with an Arts degree, who have since gotten a secondary non-related Masters? like a MBA/MBM, etc?

Ray Palmer

Ray Palmer wrote: »

I work with the civil servants at the moment. They have a grade employment structure. The 2nd lowest level has mostly hired arts degree people as new hires. The older staff doing the same jobs mostly don't have leaving certs.

There is a fast path process for those with degrees so they can be promoted quicker. They stopped allowing those with arts degrees from going to fast path without proving capable at the job first now.

When I was studying and doing 35 hrs in class with another 20hours on project work my friends doing arts had a lot less college time. They all work minor clerical jobs as do their former class mates.

My experience directly contradicts your claims along with what is reported about the degrees. Hard to find what you are saying is believable.

Ahh well, If we're all going to use personal experience as proof, I supervised the hiring of staff for two companies, and we accepted applications from people with Arts degrees from a variety of disciplines who would have ended up in roles such as Finance, management, Advertising, CRM, logistics.. Once hired, I was part of the mentoring, and training of those applicants, which usually involved a 4 week on site training program. That program would be considered a probation period to determine the applicants true ability, rather than their study/passing of a degree.

We knew that we would be up-skilling people once they were hired... because most graduates had few useful skills and a lot of misconceptions about what was involved in work. This would apply to essentially any degree holder regardless of how specialized they were...

Except, again, for technical positions such as accounting, auditing, etc.

Ray Palmer

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Apart from technical degrees (engineering, science, medicine etc), extremely few degrees teach anything helpful with regards to working. It's simply too easy for degrees to fall behind the progression curve.

My own degree in Financial Management was useful for explaining concepts, but everything I have ever used while working (credit control, AR/AP, Negotiations, Management) I learned after I had left university.



I'd agree because that's not what I said...

Some degrees called arts degrees are really science degrees. Economics arts degrees for example is actual a science degree as economics is a science. People generally are talking about arts degrees as study literature and dead languages

When I was studying we were taught how to use archaic methods as the principles didn't change. There was software about then that would do it all. The lecturer mean while told us that using a computer to do it was not worth it as you wouldn't have the time on the mainframe system to get it to work out the equations. He didn't believe us when we told him the PCs in the next room had the program and the answers were instant. He was close to retirement and had been lecturing about 20 years. We still got the knowledge on what it was doing so I get learning more after starting work but many arts student come out with no practical understanding and some seem to not even have memory of primary education like basic maths.

I am terrible and languages so I get some skills aren't natural but calculating percentages and averages is basic basic maths.

completedit

Just got a Masters in Economics. Not an ace student by any means but would have thought the “signal” of doing such a course would have made me a bit more employable.

Ray Palmer

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Ahh well, If we're all going to use personal experience as proof, I supervised the hiring of staff for two companies, and we accepted applications from people with Arts degrees from a variety of disciplines who would have ended up in roles such as Finance, management, Advertising, CRM, logistics.. Once hired, I was part of the mentoring, and training of those applicants, which usually involved a 4 week on site training program. That program would be considered a probation period to determine the applicants true ability, rather than their study/passing of a degree.

We knew that we would be up-skilling people once they were hired... because most graduates had few useful skills and a lot of misconceptions about what was involved in work. This would apply to essentially any degree holder regardless of how specialized they were...

Except, again, for technical positions such as accounting, auditing, etc.

Other companies and organisations I worked for also did mentoring. The stopped hiring arts graduates as they took so much more effort and training. Many had trouble doing a 40 hour week.

They weren't disciplined in basic work. If the civil service has an issue with their output and skills it is really bad. You can be practically be a corpse and get promoted there.

vriesmays

Deleted User wrote: »

Well, lets see the statistics then. My guess is that you're dismissing others based on an assumption rather than definite knowledge.

I assume that this will include those with an Arts degree, who have since gotten a secondary non-related Masters? like a MBA/MBM, etc?

Your guess is wrong and if you did a technical degree you wouldn't be guessing at this stage of your life.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/arts-graduates-earn-less-than-any-other-group-after-college-1.3355333


https://www.studyinternational.com/news/arts-graduates-earning-less-counterparts-degrees/

https://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0503/785721-employment-graduates/

An Claidheamh

“Meanwhile, I see contemporary artists emigrating again, even now. The promised arts funding didn’t come - it never comes.“

Forget housing and health, his “contemporary artists” are suffering, not getting their handouts.

Why should this “artist” personally get funding?

Why should he not have to compete with others for it, like every other industry?


One must remember two things about these formulaic articles, the rich poser hipster types the IT is trying to cater for and that the subject contacts the IT about their “misery” of the old country, not the other way round.

He is after all posing in his photograph.


There is something so cringey about the victim complex of middle class Irish who go to London, it’s as if they don’t have enough ambition to go to the US and it’s everyone else’s fault.
You would swear they are knee up in tarmacadam or being arrested for their accent.


I don’t buy for one second he could not get a job in a shop in Ireland, when we have record unemployment and require immigrants for our service industry.
He didn’t want to work in Starbucks, at least not near those he went to school with.

The guy and the IT’s emigration generation are not victims, they are snobs.
He even tries to use the mental health card.

The very last sentence gives it away, he’s trying to promote himself.

Self entitled arrogant twat ( he’s not even the worst they have had) gives Arts graduates a bad reputation.

vriesmays

The best bit is if he had moved to USA there would be a ready market for his plays with all the Irish studies colleges departments there.

vriesmays

vriesmays wrote: »

Your guess is wrong and if you did a technical degree you wouldn't be guessing at this stage of your life.

Guessing doesn't stop at any stage...

I have two Bachelors, an MBA, and I'm working towards a PHD. :rolleyes:

And I've no complaints about what I've achieved with them.

Edit: Your three articles all relate to the same report.

https://static.rasset.ie/documents/news/graduates.pdf

My guess would be pretty accurate since I don't think you read the actual report, simply relying on the articles. It's worth taking a look, since it does reflect some of what I said, and little of what you did...

Those who rely on their basic undergraduate Arts degree do get paid less than other majors. However few graduates of Arts consider their degree relevant to their employment, and so will do other more advanced degrees.. which are considered relevant to their employment. The advanced degree holders earning more, on average.

Although, you seem to think I'm defending Arts graduates.. I'm not. I think it's naive/short-sighted to do a major which doesn't provide decent opportunities for employment.. (unless you've got other sources of income to support you)

vriesmays

If you're not defending arts graduates then stop posting on this thread because every one of your posts is saying arts graduates can earn the same as other graduates when they don't and never will without doing further study in a different area.

LRNM

What is it with STEM people and their raging desire to devoid the world of all art, literature, emotion, humanity and knowledge?



So glad I'm not one of you sheep types who think the only desire in life is your salary and being a computer toucher for a living.

The same knobjockeys who think Irish and History should be replaced by programming in schools.

vriesmays

vriesmays wrote: »

If you're not defending arts graduates then stop posting on this thread because every one of your posts is saying arts graduates can earn the same as other graduates when they don't and never will without doing further study in a different area.

For someone talking about ignorance, you're showing an amazing amount of it yourself. Read back over the thread, since it's obvious you've focused on only the last one or two pages.... :rolleyes:

And I didn't say "that arts graduates can earn the same as other graduates"..

Care to go back over my posts and find where I did? Get an actual quote, not your reinterpretation...

PommieBast

LRNM wrote: »

What is it with STEM people and their raging desire to devoid the world of all art, literature, emotion, humanity and knowledge?

At my alma-mater it was a reaction to all the student politics grandstanding by non-STEM types.



I think the Libertarian Society trying to get in an arms dealer as guest speaker in response to a CAAT motion was a bit spiteful though.