How about get a degree where there are jobs instead of crying about it.

quokula

Julio Wailing Page wrote: »

I think people should do what makes them happy.

While it’s a nice sentiment, in order to be happy people also need things like food, a roof over their head, transport, medicine when their sick etc etc

If everyone just did what made them happy for a career then we’d have none of those things and society would collapse. There’s a reason why more useful jobs generally pay better.

And I’m aware that there are many contributions to society by talented writers and artists, but I’m not sure how many of those coming out of arts degrees fall into that category.

Always Tired

Always Tired wrote: »

I know my last post was long enough but I just want to add that people who think like the OP annoy me a little because they are so narrow minded they can't understand it, and don't even try.

I mean, I can understand easily why one would choose to be an engineer or IT guy, etc. It offers money, which equals security. If I could do that, why wouldn't I? It would be much easier than to try and struggle as an artist. (Not saying engineering or IT is easy, just easier to make money at for people who are inclined that way) It would certainly, as OP suggests, be preferable to not being able to make money off the only things I am good at, and at the same time unable to deal with the torturous conditions inflicted upon front line workers in unskilled jobs like retail, call centres, hotels/restaurants (all of which I have done for at least 2 years each btw.)

This isn't the first time boards has had a thread like this, with people scoffing about creative people being entitled, wasters, etc. But do you lot not see how you could also be scoffed at for your choices? Because clearly the money and security provided to you by your practical degree or job hasn't made you happy. It hasn't softened your heart. Some of you dont even appear grateful for what you have, spending a large amount of time begrudging people with far less than you for whatever they have, gnashing your teeth about people on the dole stealing your tax and silly shìte like that.

Maybe instead of asking why the artists didn't study a 'jobby' degree, ask yourself why you don't do something creative. It might make you less vindictive and petty!

The most valuable resource we have is our time. So if someone wants to use it to be creative instead of doing something they arent suited to, it makes perfect sense to me. And likewise, if someone wants to work for some big company doing dull and thankless tasks and playing office politics because it allows for them to have a lot of money, I can see the appeal to that too. It certainly feels great to have lots of money. It solves a lot of problems, allows you to fill a lot of desires. I just know it's not for me.

It would be nice if there were more opportunities for artists outside of the cities. Especially considering the cities are not really affordable to artists now. But unfortunately we need less of the attitude displayed in the OP for that to happen.

high five on the sneering about the sneering

oh by the way everyone else is paying for you to be above working, but its ok im sure they all just decided that work was "for them"

con___manx1

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Careful now, there’s a few on here who think the “Arts” degree is the height of enlightenment and not the, giant, waste of time it actually is.

I know a few people who became teachers after doing an arts degree. I hope you have been enlightened.

padd b1975

893bet wrote: »

Playwright John O’Donovan’s new play Flights is on at the Project Arts Centre in Dublin until February 8th, and has its London premiere on February 11th to 29th at Omnibus Theatre.


He done ok. It’s a global economy. He was never gonna stay in Clare.

He has indeed.

He needs to embrace the bohemian lifestyle or develop something resembling a work ethic because he's never really going to make it as a regular blue collar worker with those qualifications.

padd b1975

con___manx1 wrote: »

I know a few people who became teachers after doing an arts degree.

Same here, it used to be called the H. Dip. back in my day, God knows what it's called now.

Yurt2

The arts (as an industry) is actually a big money-spinner. It also lacks security, and the people that make it are often tough as a boot and more resiliant than many here sneering at them from their damp cubicle fantasizing about a better looking wife, a nicer house and drinking themselves to death every weekend trying to forget the misery of it all.

And he's correct on many things, returning to Ireland from abroad is a big fat joke. I'll never forget trying to get quoted for car insurance and being absoultely rode for rent in inferior housing stock coming back from a major world city where the price of a flat was cheaper. Remember folks, the harder you work, the better it will all get (snigger) - it's all how it's supposed to be. Flats are meant to be that expensive, healthcare is meant to be dysfunctional, buying a house was always this way, infrastructure is always sh*te. The problems is you never learned to code you big waster.

Ireland hates people that emigrate. If they're successful, they're smug; if they don't make it they're bums and wasters.
Ireland also hates people that stay. This is Ireland, evreybody hates evreybody else. And every Irishman with these sentiments floating around their brain is always the most cleverest most hardest working boy that ever did live.

Wanderer78

Fccwontletmebe wrote:

Things like this really irritate me. Sense of entitlement culture.

Austerity is well known to cause catastrophic social issues, it can easily be classed as an economically dump idea, and our current situation with issues such as housing and health care are a prime example of its fcuk ups.

Society requires many different types of trained and non trained individuals to function, including individuals who are seen to be non productive, not all humans are left brainers

Yurt2

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Austerity is well known to cause catastrophic social issues, it can easily be classed as an economically dump idea, and our current situation with issues such as housing and health care are a prime example of its fcuk ups.

Society requires many different types of trained and non trained individuals to function, including individuals who are seen to be non productive, not all humans are left brainers

That's commie talk you big waster. Why should I pay my mortgage for my overpirced house when this guy gets to live in a small apartment in London writing plays?? LOOK AT HIS HAT. I'm voting Fine Gael again.

Wanderer78

Yurt! wrote:

That's commie talk you big waster.

Hahaha thanks

Now where's my free stuff!

Yurt2

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Hahaha thanks

Now where's my free stuff!

Shave your sideburns and get a job deleting snuff pron and be-headings from Facebook. You'll live in a bedsit in Harolds Cross with a load of Nepalese lads and you'll like it.


MY TAXES

Wanderer78

Yurt! wrote:

Shave your sideburns and get a job deleting snuff pron and be-headings from Facebook. You'll live in a bedsit in Harolds Cross with a load of Nepalese lads and you'll like it.

Heaven

Fccwontletmebe

Cut welfare to food stamps and a 50 euro penny's voucher every year.

Wanderer78

Fccwontletmebe wrote: »

Cut welfare to food stamps and a 50 euro penny's voucher every year.

you re too generous, give them knives, guns, and maybe some drugs, hopefully they ll kill each other, and we ll be entertained by it all

Raconteuse

Fccwontletmebe wrote: »

Cut welfare to food stamps and a 50 euro penny's voucher every year.

If you were laid off, I doubt you'd be content with the above while looking for a new job.

mariaalice

The man can study anything he likes the and arts is as valid a study option as any other, however, to expect to work in publishing and live in rural Clare is a little silly without a huge amount of effort. I don't know where he went to college UL maybe but he should have been involved in the arts scene making contacts, volunteering in some art centers and theaters figuring out how to get some grants and keep grinding away at it if he wanted to stay in Clare.

It also to do with the living abroad section of the Irish times there are an awful lot of articles like his I have read much worse ones.

mariaalice

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/how-the-civil-service-became-a-hotbed-of-great-irish-writing-1.3374347

That is an interesting article, how people did the boring stuff and worked as a civil servants while pursuing the arts and some became very well known.

mariaalice

To anyone who say the arts are not worth studying this is a peom I love by one of the civil servant poets not well know.

Warning its about the death of a mother.



Years After

And yet we managed fine.

We missed your baking for a time.
And yet we were not better off
without cream-hearted sponges cakes,
flaky, rhubarb-oozing pies.

Linoleum-tiled rooms could no longer
presume on your thoroughgoing scrub;
and yet me made up for our neglect,
laid hardwood timber floors.

Windows shimmered less often.
And yet we got around to
elbow-greasing them eventually.
Your daily sheet-and-blanket

rituals of bed making were more
than we could hope to emulate
And yet the duvets we bought
brought us gradually to sleep,

Declan and Eithne (eleven
and nine respectively at the time)
had to survive without your packed
banana sandwiches, wooden spoon

deterrent, hugs, multivitamins.
And yet they both grew strong;
you have unmet grandchildren
in-laws you never knew.

Yes, we managed fine, made
breakfasts and made love,
took on jobs and mortgages,
set ourselves up for life.

And yet. And yet. And yet.


.

Dennis O’Driscoll (1954–2012) was born in Thurles, Co. Tipperary

lozenges

Clareman wrote: »

2009 wasn't a great year anywhere, in the mid-west Dell was after announcing that it was closing the factory BUT there was loads of minimum wage jobs available. My guess is that John thought a minimum wage in Clare was below him because he had a Masters but that was ok in London.Probably didn't help that he was straight out of college with little experience.

He literally said in the article that he would have been happy to take a job in a shop. So presumably minimum wage. Don't get the impression he thought anything was 'beneath him'

lozenges

lozenges wrote: »

He literally said in the article that he would have been happy to take a job in a shop. So presumably minimum wage. Don't get the impression he thought anything was 'beneath him'

part of the point of the thread is pointing out that you dont just rock up and get a job, even a crap one, in a recession

kids, get a real degree

lozenges

[Deleted User] wrote: »

part of the point of the thread is pointing out that you dont just rock up and get a job, even a crap one, in a recession

kids, get a real degree

I did an extremely practical degree with essentially guaranteed employment after. I still think the world would be a much poorer place if it was filled with people who did 'real degrees'. Accountants and management graduates everywhere and noone with any appreciation of classics, literature, history, languages? No thanks..

lozenges

lozenges wrote: »

I did an extremely practical degree with essentially guaranteed employment after. I still think the world would be a much poorer place if it was filled with people who did 'real degrees'. Accountants and management graduates everywhere and noone with any appreciation of classics, literature, history, languages? No thanks..

......what a lamentable and narrow view you take of people who can separate what they do for a living from what they can appreciate besides.

KiKi III

What degrees do you think the writers of most of your favourite TV shows, films and books did?

El_Duderino 09

[Deleted User] wrote: »

each and every IT article about the problems of generation emigration has a bang of whiney entitlement tbh

who cares, lads. who cares.

I find it interesting to see how attitudes have changed. You watch reeling in the years and nobody slags off the ones emigrating. They lamented they rural towns gutted of young people. Now you see people take the p1ss out of emigrants and laugh at their sense of entitlement.

FWIW, the bloke in the article has a very modest life from what I can tell. He’s glad his bed sit isn’t damp or mouldy, works a part time paid job plus unpaid internships but is still branded “entitled”. Old people with houses and pensions and stable jobs for life with steady wage growth over the years, would Sh1t a brick if they had to live like a modern young person. Zero hour contracts wages not even matching inflation for lower paid, no job security, paying such high rent (to older people to top up their earnings) no pension to look forward to and no reasonable prospect of buying a home or starting a family.

Genuinely interesting to see how the young today are the public punching bag for everyone to take out their frustration on. It’s no wonder the young people put up with it. It’s all they’ve ever known.

tritium

In general degrees in literature are not something that industry actively seeks- if someone gets a career with one it tends to be a general rather than technical role, understandably so since it lacks the skills needed for certain positions. That’s fine but anyone doing those qualifications should be aware of this. It’s value for getting on a career ladder is quite niche: if you're looking to work in retail, experience matters more, if you’re looking to work in something very technical you lack the skills. That’s not to say it’s worthless but it’s value isn’t in terms of looking to become a CEO. Generally if you want to be a playwright you work for yourself and hope your work is good enough to be noticed. It was the path trodden by Beckett and Joyce so nothing new there

mariaalice

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I find it interesting to see how attitudes have changed. You watch reeling in the years and nobody slags off the ones emigrating. They lamented they rural towns gutted of young people. Now you see people take the p1ss out of emigrants and laugh at their sense of entitlement.

FWIW, the bloke in the article has a very modest life from what I can tell. He’s glad his verdict isn’t damp or mouldy but is still branded “entitled”. Old people with houses and pensions and stable jobs for life with gratanter wage growth over the years, would Sh1t a brick if they had to live like a modern young person. Zero hour contracts wages not even matching inflation for lower paid, no job security, paying such high rent (to older people to top up their earnings) no reasonable prospect of buying a home or starting a family.

Genuinely interesting to see how the young today are the public punching bag for everyone to take out their frustration on. It’s no wonder the young people put up with it. It’s all they’ve ever known.

Disagree with you mostly but there is a bit of dumbing down on the young going on.

Its to do with lack of reticence and the slight woe is my tone of some of the articles versus the just getting on with it life of the older generation.

Unemployment was 20% in the 1980s and pla lived in damp dangerous accommodation.

marieholmfan

Think he's doing alright. Poor as a churchmouse but writing plays and having one produced. Obviously no interest in Dublin so he went to London.



He's doing OK.

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I find it interesting to see how attitudes have changed. You watch reeling in the years and nobody slags off the ones emigrating. They lamented they rural towns gutted of young people. Now you see people take the p1ss out of emigrants and laugh at their sense of entitlement.

FWIW, the bloke in the article has a very modest life from what I can tell. He’s glad his bed sit isn’t damp or mouldy, works a part time paid job plus unpaid internships but is still branded “entitled”. Old people with houses and pensions and stable jobs for life with steady wage growth over the years, would Sh1t a brick if they had to live like a modern young person. Zero hour contracts wages not even matching inflation for lower paid, no job security, paying such high rent (to older people to top up their earnings) no pension to look forward to and no reasonable prospect of buying a home or starting a family.

Genuinely interesting to see how the young today are the public punching bag for everyone to take out their frustration on. It’s no wonder the young people put up with it. It’s all they’ve ever known.

El_Duderino 09

mariaalice wrote: »

Disagree with you mostly but there is a bit of dumbing down on the young going on.

Its to do with lack of reticence and the slight woe is my tone of some of the articles versus the just getting on with it life of the older generation.

Unemployment was 20% in the 1980s and pla lived in damp dangerous accommodation.

What specifically do you disagree with?

The bloke IS ‘getting on with it’. He’s working a paid job part time ABD working jobs for free to get experience. Did many of the ones in the 80s expect to work for free when they emigrated? Would the 80s construction workers ever offer work a hod carrier for 6 months for free? But this bloke is entitled.

He is grateful for his modest life without damp or mould in his bed sit, but still he’s entitled. Entitled to what? What does he think he’s entitled to? He doesn't think he’s entitled to be paid for his work, he doesn’t think he’s entitled to a job at all. He doesn’t think he’s entitled to a lavish lifestyle. So what do you think he’s claiming entitlement to?

The only entitlement I see is when a young person expresses their concerns, an entitlement to slag them off and put them down.

So, to what does the bloke imply he’s entitled?

El_Duderino 09

marieholmfan wrote: »

Think he's doing alright. Poor as a churchmouse but writing plays and having one produced. Obviously no interest in Dublin so he went to London.



He's doing OK.

He doesn’t say any different. He seems hard working and determined and very grateful for how things are going. That’s something to be ridiculed according to lots of posters.

mariaalice

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

What specifically do you disagree with?

The bloke IS ‘getting on with it’. He’s working a paid job part time ABD working jobs for free to get experience. Did many of the ones in the 80s expect to work for free when they emigrated? Would the 80s construction workers ever offer work a hod carrier for 6 months for free? But this bloke is entitled.

He is grateful for his modest life without damp or mould in his bed sit, but still he’s entitled. Entitled to what? What does he think he’s entitled to? He doesn't think he’s entitled to be paid for his work, he doesn’t think he’s entitled to a job at all. He doesn’t think he’s entitled to a lavish lifestyle. So what do you think he’s claiming entitlement to?

The only entitlement I see is when a young person expresses their concerns, an entitlement to slag them off and put them down.

So, to what does the bloke imply he’s entitled?

He is not entitled he is bit delusional wanting a career in publishing and the arts while living in rural Clare and as I said its not the worst article of its kind.

El_Duderino 09

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I find it interesting to see how attitudes have changed. You watch reeling in the years and nobody slags off the ones emigrating. They lamented they rural towns gutted of young people. Now you see people take the p1ss out of emigrants and laugh at their sense of entitlement.

FWIW, the bloke in the article has a very modest life from what I can tell. He’s glad his bed sit isn’t damp or mouldy, works a part time paid job plus unpaid internships but is still branded “entitled”. Old people with houses and pensions and stable jobs for life with steady wage growth over the years, would Sh1t a brick if they had to live like a modern young person. Zero hour contracts wages not even matching inflation for lower paid, no job security, paying such high rent (to older people to top up their earnings) no pension to look forward to and no reasonable prospect of buying a home or starting a family.

Genuinely interesting to see how the young today are the public punching bag for everyone to take out their frustration on. It’s no wonder the young people put up with it. It’s all they’ve ever known.

couple things

is yerman "young"? dont see his age

the reasons for everyone leaving in the 80s aint the reasons now. and if you had to leave to be a skivvy from free third-level ireland in 2009 then thats on you. and im not sure that the irish times were running such frequent pieces from domhnhaihils and saoaoaoairseaias in 1984 lamenting the ****hole they left and how it hasnt cuddled them home upon their return

people have not had it easy nor soft in ireland while the people who got their choice of a free degree (or their choice of no degree) departed for sunnier, better climes.

not mention you come home now for a few bob on the plane, which wasnt the case back then.

so no, its really no comparison between exporting our young with nothing to give them but the option to stay away for years and work manual jobs, and the travails of a fella who wants to be a playwright but nobody in london or clare has seen his genius yet.