Could Sinn Fein actually run a country ?

is_that_so

Matt Barrett wrote: »

So governments are just for show. Got it.
Did anyone tell FG re: the Apple 13bn?

You keep bringing this up and utterly misrepresenting it. It's been deemed illegal state aid by the Commission and therefore taxable. It also happened on FF's watch. Revenue, the government, Apple and even FF strongly disagree and are appealing it. It's not our money and it will go elsewhere.

jim-mcdee

pjohnson wrote: »

Cant be worse than FG tbf.

You think so? That kind of thinking got Hitler into power. And Pol Pot. And the rest.

James Brown

Mortelaro wrote: »

I think this is the 115th time
That's not our money (if its owed at all to anyone)

Morty, you miss the point.
Seemingly what the ECB says a government must do. Governments are for show when it comes to the EU. Therefore likely FG should give up the Apple 13bn ghost if that's the case.

is_that_so wrote: »

You keep bringing this up and utterly misrepresenting it. It's been deemed illegal state aid by the Commission and therefore taxable. It also happened on FF's watch. Revenue, the government, Apple and even FF strongly disagree and are appealing it. It's not our money and it will go elsewhere.

Not so. You are inferring I am. You said FG had to support bondholders because the ECB said so. If they couldn't disagree on that how come they'll fight for Apple? That's all I'm saying. Who gets it or were it goes wasn't mentioned by me.

James Brown

jim-mcdee wrote: »

You think so? That kind of thinking got Hitler into power. And Pol Pot. And the rest.

Come to think of it a FG TD did liken the water protesters to ISIS :eek:

jimmycrackcorm

smurgen wrote: »

We even paid back junior bondholders of unsecured debt of Anglo against the advice of the IMF and our mortgage rates are still some of the highest in Europe.

Not all...

While most junior bondholders in Anglo agreed in 2010 to accept just a fifth of what they were owed from their investment after the Government threatened to inflict bigger losses on them, a group of these junior bondholders refused to take part and accept any losses.

Field east

xper wrote: »

Most of the discussion in this thread has focused on SF’s economic policies and for good reason, their sums just don’t add up.

But there are other aspects of running a country that their experience and modus operandi don’t lend themselves to, particularly around international affairs. And there are some roles that should give voters serious pause for thought - a SF Minister for Justice? A SF Minister for Defence?

Hopefully, if SF enter gov that it will be given the inocuous ministries of health, housing, communications and finance. It should be definitely be kept far far away fromJustice andDefence!,,,,,,!!!!!!!!!!!!

is_that_so

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Morty, you miss the point.
Seemingly what the ECB says a government must do. Governments are for show when it comes to the EU. Therefore likely FG should give up the Apple 13bn ghost if that's the case.



No so. You are inferring I am. You said FG had to support bondholders because the ECB said so. If they couldn't disagree on that how come they'll fight for Apple? That's all I'm saying. Who gets it or were it goes wasn't mentioned by me.

That was signalled in FF's time back in about 2009, no burning of bondholders and as the putative "regulator" of banking it was their call. Given how much money we had to borrow that was a small price to pay.

smurgen

I'd say they could do an good job for the average citizen.those currently enjoying cosy cartels are going to be finding it tough going.

https://twitter.com/PearseDoherty/status/1224600030075609088?s=19

is_that_so

smurgen wrote: »

I'd say they could do an good job for the average citizen.those currently enjoying cosy cartels are going to be finding it tough going.

https://twitter.com/PearseDoherty/status/1224600030075609088?s=19

The CB actually produced the report on it!

smurgen

is_that_so wrote: »

The CB actually produced the report on it!

And it took someone from SF to change the legislation. All FG and FF do is produce reports and have inquiries. Window dressing exercises.

is_that_so

smurgen wrote: »

And it took someone from SF to change the legislation. All FG and FF do is produce reports and have inquiries. Window dressing exercises.

Do you have a link to that?

James Brown

is_that_so wrote: »

That was signalled in FF's time back in about 2009, no burning of bondholders and as the putative "regulator" of banking it was their call. Given how much money we had to borrow that was a small price to pay.

But how come...

The European Central Bank (ECB) has said it did not block Ireland from burning bondholders in the wake of the financial crash - a decision that helped heap €64bn of bank debt on to the shoulders of taxpayers.

In a letter to Irish MEP Matt Carthy (Sinn Féin), the President of the ECB Mario Draghi said his bank's role in the area of so-called "burden sharing" with bondholders had been "frequently misunderstood and, at times, misrepresented".

Mr Draghi said senior bondholders who had invested in Irish banks were protected primarily as a result of the Irish bank guarantee, which was introduced by the then coalition in September 2008.

The ECB was not consulted about the guarantee, he said.

"The ECB was neither made aware of nor consulted beforehand on the implementation of the Credit Institutions Financial Support Scheme (the bank guarantee), and took a critical view of the two-year guarantee of bank liabilities," Mr Draghi said in a letter dated February 17.

The ECB had no power to order Ireland to protect bondholders, Mr Draghi (inset) said.
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/we-did-not-stop-ireland-from-burning-bondholders-says-ecb-chief-draghi-31004472.html

Also...

Burning bondholders ‘could have saved the State €9bn’
NTMA advised Government of possible savings in March 2011

The failure to impose losses on senior bondholders to recoup some of the cost of the €64 billion bank bailout has been a source of political controversy since Fine Gael and Labour entered Government.

The NTMA estimate of potential savings is higher than previous suggestions about what could have been clawed back.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/burning-bondholders-could-have-saved-the-state-9bn-1.2513067

Seems about right to kick up over the Apple 13bn...whomever or wherever it may go

Field east

marieholmfan wrote: »

An SF minister for Justice might investigate O'Brien and political corruption in general in a way that's a little more in depth than FFFG have.

And when The SF min for justice has sorted out O Brien , he/ she might have a ‘more in depth look at the following for starters
- diesel laundering and loss of revenue
-cattle rustling
- Tom Oliver’s demise
- the prison officer shot outside National boxing stadium - died later from injuries
-garda Jerry McCabe
- the young Quinn chap that was walloped to a pulp
- protection money gangs that contribute to increasing house prices in more ways than one

jimmycrackcorm

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Why should the electorate choose the status quo? A status quo that has seen the gap between rich and poor grow and grow. If you're a landlord, if you're someone in a comfortable position in society then sure, you'd want things to stay the same. Why would somebody not in that position vote to keep things the same? People who are further from owning a home than ever, people forced to rent rooms in dreadful conditions for crazy prices, a public health care system that's being destroyed. Why would you not want something better? There's no guarantees it will be, but you know if you're voting FG or FF you're getting the same thing you always get, the rich getting richer and the poor becoming poorer.

That's a fair point about the status quo. If there is a better option then I and everyone else in the electorate should vote for that no matter who they voted for in three past.

But SF are only making populist promises. Their economic policies are not going to provide growth. Sinn Fein is our brexit party with their promises of sunny Uplands.

suicide_circus

who'd have thought Sinn Fein were the panacea to all the nation's ills

is_that_so

Matt Barrett wrote: »

But how come...

He wasn't in charge at the time. It was Trichet.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/ecb-was-right-to-not-burn-bond-holders-says-european-commission-378330.html

Another link

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/banking-inquiry/article34400184.ece

It did become ECB policy very quickly after Lehmans, in fact worldwide. I also reckon they came down on us hard for the curveball of the guarantee.

Maewyn Succat

topmanamillion wrote: »

The government have collected it from Apple and its sitting in an Escrow account while the government fights its right to hand it back to Apple. Seeing as the EU said its tax Ireland is owed, where do you suggest it might go?

I would imagine it would be divided up between the countries where the Apple products were actually sold in amounts proportionate to the number of sales in each country. Feel free to correct if you know better though.

is_that_so

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Seems about right to kick up over the Apple 13bn...whomever or wherever it may go

Goes to the heart of the credibility of our tax system and that Revenue made that call so I can see why they'd fight it all the way.

For Forks Sake

suicide_circus wrote: »

who'd have thought Sinn Fein were the panacea to all the nation's ills

This eejit for one : https://twitter.com/KarlBrophy/status/1224651273607307265?s=19

:rolleyes:

James Brown

is_that_so wrote: »

He wasn't in charge at the time. It was Trichet.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/ecb-was-right-to-not-burn-bond-holders-says-european-commission-378330.html

Another link

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/banking-inquiry/article34400184.ece

It did become ECB policy very quickly after Lehmans, in fact worldwide. I also reckon they came down on us hard for the curveball of the guarantee.

So we've direct quotes from him speaking on behalf of the ECB, (regardless of his position at the time). Verses an opinion piece referencing ECB advice.

My point goes back to bailing out bondholders and FF/FG/Lab being cool about it. Not forced to by the ECB as you suggested.

Nice of yourself and Morty to concede I never said f*** all about us/the state getting the Apple 13bn either

James Brown

suicide_circus wrote: »

who'd have thought Sinn Fein were the panacea to all the nation's ills

Michael Collins and Eamon De Valera.

Phoebas

Matt Barrett wrote: »

My point goes back to bailing out bondholders and FF/FG/Lab being cool about it.

Bit of a rewrite of history there.

Hurrache

For Forks Sake wrote: »

This eejit for one : https://twitter.com/KarlBrophy/status/1224651273607307265?s=19

:rolleyes:

LOL, I heard that fella. Said it was great and he had a job within days of returning home, but I suppose he's not happy a state provided limo wasn't awaiting him at the airport.

smurgen

Phoebas wrote: »

Bit of a rewrite of history there.

Nope

Xwebstar

How bad could they be?

They know how to shoot a gun, or did

bcklschaps

Well firstly SF will not get an overall majority. They will most likely be in a coalition government with FF. I quite like the idea of SF in government and in a coalition. They have some interesting ideas.


FF can't be trusted in Government alone or without the 'supervision' of a proper party. Independent's are too easily bought off.

FG probably won't go into government with SF.

James Brown

Xwebstar wrote: »

How bad could they be?

They know how to shoot a gun, or did

I'll give you a good quote from a shinner. Apt considering the changing political times:

Give us the future… We’ve had enough of your past… Give us back our country… to live in, – to grow in, – to Love.

bcklschaps wrote: »

Well firstly SF will not get an overall majority. They will most likely be in a coalition government with FF. I quite like the idea of SF in government and in a coalition. They have some interesting ideas.


FF can't be trusted in Government alone or without the 'supervision' of a proper party. Independent's are too easily bought off.

FG probably won't go into government with SF.

The key point for me is the civil war see-saw might become a roundabout. This opens it up for proper change where ever it may come from.

pwurple

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Michael Collins and Eamon De Valera.

The same Michael Collins who was shot dead by the 'RA for being pro-treaty? I don't think you can compare the Sinn Fein he was a member of, and the knee-capping, Jean McConnville-disappearing organisation it became afterwards.

The man would turn in his grave if he could read that.

James Brown

pwurple wrote: »

The same Michael Collins who was shot dead by the 'RA for being pro-treaty? I don't think you can compare the Sinn Fein he was a member of, and the knee-capping, Jean McConnville-disappearing organisation it became afterwards.

The man would turn in his grave if he could read that.

Ha

FrancieBrady

pwurple wrote: »

The same Michael Collins who was shot dead by the 'RA for being pro-treaty? I don't think you can compare the Sinn Fein he was a member of, and the knee-capping, Jean McConnville-disappearing organisation it became afterwards.

The man would turn in his grave if he could read that.

There were more people disappeared in Kerry/Cork alone during independence than there was in the entirety of NI during the most recent conflict/war.

Actual history is your friend.