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Could Sinn Fein actually run a country ?

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    #572
    Yurt2
    Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Mortelaro wrote: »
    His conviction was overturned
    Many jury convictions have been overturned
    Who convicted by the SCC is in jail or served their time that is innocent in the opinion of the person to whom I first asked the question


    He was granted a presidential pardon on at the request of the minister of justice, it was not overturned by the courts. A most unusual set of circumstances and a big fat glowing example of a miscarriage of justice delivered by the SCC. One of the judges presiding over the case met him privately and said he was in no doubt about his innocence.


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    #573
    Yurt2
    Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Mortelaro wrote: »
    You are not answering the question
    Who has the SCC convicted,that failed to be overturned is innocent
    That's the standard you and SF need to justify abolishing it
    Take your time


    Lol, I don't' have to answer your question. What did you have for breakfast this morning? Answer that for me

    Jury trials are the gold standard for delivering justice in the common law tradition.


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    #574
    marieholmfan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,744 ✭✭✭marieholmfan


    JohnnyFlash wrote: »
    The hardcore supporter of SF doesn’t give a rats ass about Paul Quinn or McCabe or any of the rest of the victims of the IRA. Some of them probably miss the campaign of terrorism and violence and what it stood for.

    Then they get upset when it turns out others do have an issue with a party who up until recently was giving standing ovations to lads who planted bombs that blew up innocent men, women, and children.
    So Woke!
    Where can I buy your newsletter!


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    #575
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    Mortelaro wrote: »
    His conviction was overturned
    Many jury convictions have been overturned
    Who convicted by the SCC is in jail or served their time that is innocent in the opinion of the person to whom I first asked the question

    His conviction was not overturned - he was released after serving 4 or 5 years on humanitarian grounds after a worldwide campaign, years later he was pardoned by Mary Robinson (who had been one of his most vocal supporters)

    The case is a damning indictment of the abuse possible with the SCC setup. He was beaten, imprisoned, almost dies in jail and suffered lifelong medical issues - all down to corrupt police and a court system which simply doesn't require any proof!

    It's not some shining example of how it's actually fit for purpose, because they let him out.....eventually.

    Come on now, behave yourself!


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    #576
    Mortelaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭Mortelaro


    Yurt! wrote: »
    He was granted a presidential pardon on at the request of the minister of justice, it was not overturned by the courts. A most unusual set of circumstances and a big fat glowing example of a miscarriage of justice delivered by the SCC. One of the judges presiding over the case met him privately and said he was in no doubt about his innocence.

    It was overturned by a minister of Justice based on new evidence
    Now back to the original question, is there anyone currently in jail or by now released who shouldn't be on account of the SCC
    Name them
    For that is the case you need to make,otherwise you have last nights clanger where it looks like SF's policy is based on IRA dislike of the SCC (for obvious reasons)
    Take your time


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    #577
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    I thought the UN, civil rights organisations also had an issue with the SCC and not just SF . Am I wrong?


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    #578
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    Jinglejangle69 wrote: »
    Was talking to someone who was in Sweden last week.

    No litter on the streets, no j walking, people were leaving their bikes down and just walking off safe they won't be robbed.

    The whole country has respect for each other and crime is miniscule.

    That's why they don't mind paying high taxes, because its not just going to paying for free houses for wasters.

    The whole country works together.

    Its time we started looking at the attitude of some of our citizens as well as government.

    But noone will dare speak the truth.

    Ireland has a sizable cohort of people who all know their "entitlements" but very few know their "responsibilities".


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    #579
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    Mortelaro wrote: »
    I
    For that is the case you need to make,otherwise you have last nights clanger where it looks like SF's policy is based on IRA dislike of the SCC (for obvious reasons)
    Take your time

    Do you think they are the same obvious reasons that the UN human rights committee have called for it to be dissolved for, or what about Amnesty International? Or are they calling for different obvious reasons?

    Take your time!


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    #580
    Mortelaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭Mortelaro


    sbsquarepants wrote: »
    His conviction was not overturned

    Come on now, behave yourself!
    I'm well aware with Nickys position
    Fact is he was pardoned on the instructions of a minister for justice which is a recognised tool outside of the court of criminal appeal and I agree with it

    Question I asked remains outstanding


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    #581
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    Plumbthedepths wrote: »
    I thought the UN, civil rights organisations also had an issue with the SCC and not just SF . Am I wrong?

    Anyone with a passing interest in civil rights should have an issue with the SCC.


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    #582
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    Mortelaro wrote: »
    I'm well aware with Nickys position
    Fact is he was pardoned on the instructions of a minister for justice which is a recognised tool outside of the court of criminal appeal and I agree with it

    Question I asked remains outstanding

    So your position is that the Nicky Kelly case actually proves that the system works?
    Is that honestly what you're telling us?


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    #583
    Mortelaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭Mortelaro


    sbsquarepants wrote: »
    Do you think they are the same obvious reasons that the UN human rights committee have called for it to be dissolved for, or what about Amnesty International? Or are they calling for different obvious reasons?

    Take your time!

    My own view is you bring that to a referendum
    SF wont do that because they know it would lose
    Democratic opinion usually trumps UNHRC and amnesty international who let's face it,arent in a hurry to name who's currently jailed by the SCC that shouldn't be,either


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    #584
    TuringBot47
    Registered Users Posts: 991 ✭✭✭TuringBot47


    sbsquarepants wrote: »
    Nicky Kelly is the one that springs to mind first anyway.

    A 40 year old case about a Sinn Fein member... got it.
    A case that's older than at least 50% of the posters on boards I'd say.

    It was always going to be one of your buddies.
    Eamonn Noel Kelly (born 9 January 1951), known as Nicky Kelly, is an Irish politician from Arklow in County Wicklow. He was born Edward Noel Kelly from Graiguenamanagh, County Kilkenny. A member of Official Sinn Féin


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    #585
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    efanton wrote: »
    Complete and utter bull, and you know it.
    THe Apple case has gone through every court in the land, to the European courts and in every instance it has been proven that Apple did not pay the full amount. Our government now has the audacity to use even more tax payers money to challenge those rulings.

    Show me the policy document that states SF intended to adjust our corporation tax. It doesn't exist, I know because over the last week or so I have gone back found every single SF policy document and election manifesto over the last 10 years and read them.
    I assume you have gone to the same effort and will easily be able to produce said document.

    Time to prove your point and post the link or bow out gracefully.

    Surely Apple making €104 BILLION profit in Ireland would mean that we all have multiple Macs, iPads, Iphones, Iwatches, etc and nothing else.


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    #586
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    Mortelaro wrote: »
    My own view is you bring that to a referendum
    SF wont do that because they know it would lose
    Democratic opinion usually trumps UNHRC and amnesty international who let's face it,arent in a hurry to name who's currently jailed by the SCC that shouldn't be,either

    The UN was also against Ireland's position on abortion, a referendum confirmed the UN's position. If those that are in favour of the SCC and so sure of the public's support a ref would just confirm their position and inform the UN and civil rights organisations of same. Works both ways.


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    #587
    Yurt2
    Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Mortelaro wrote: »
    It was overturned by a minister of Justice based on new evidence
    Now back to the original question, is there anyone currently in jail or by now released who shouldn't be on account of the SCC
    Name them
    For that is the case you need to make,otherwise you have last nights clanger where it looks like SF's policy is based on IRA dislike of the SCC (for obvious reasons)
    Take your time

    False. Public pressure following an RTE report moved the minister to request the pardon, which was granted by the president. Your use of the word 'evidence' and 'overturned' makes it sound like it was relitigated in court and the individual had his innocence affirmed by normal means. It most certainly was not. Essentially it was left to the president to undo the miscarriage of justice. And the facts of the case were widely known for years.

    You wanted an example of someone convicted in the wrong and you got a textbook example of a miscarriage of justice related to the SCC. Checkmate. Move on.


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    #588
    Finty Lemon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,532 ✭✭✭Finty Lemon


    Single issue parties struggle in government.

    SF are a single issue party i.e. drive the Prods into the sea by any means necessary.

    Everything else is just expendable populism. I you believe for a second that they have any real interest in health, education or environment you are quite naïve


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    #589
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    TuringBot47 wrote: »
    A 40 year old case about a Sinn Fein member... got it.
    A case that's older than at least 50% of the posters on boards I'd say.

    It was always going to be one of your buddies.

    He's not my buddy.

    Are you suggesting it's OK to beat and imprison innocent people once they're Sinn Fein supporters. Because again, you are showing exactly what's wrong with the SCC set up.

    It is not OK to fake evidence, beat confessions out of people and jail them in the full knowledge that they are innocent, even if you don't like their politics.

    That's not justice, that's tyranny. I'd say you'd be the first to condemn Saudi Arabia or somewhere like that for barbarity in the exact same set of circumstances.

    Don't be pretending it's OK!


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    #590
    Yurt2
    Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    TuringBot47 wrote: »
    A 40 year old case about a Sinn Fein member... got it.
    A case that's older than at least 50% of the posters on boards I'd say.

    It was always going to be one of your buddies.

    He wasn't in SF for what it's worth.


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    #591
    Mortelaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭Mortelaro


    Plumbthedepths wrote: »
    The UN was also against Ireland's position on abortion, a referendum confirmed the UN's position. If those that are in favour of the SCC and so sure of the public's support a ref would just confirm their position and inform the UN and civil rights organisations of same. Works both ways.

    They should campaign to Put it to a referendum then and stop trying to sneak in such a fundamental policy hidden by other domestic issues
    My question as to naming who is in jail which let's face it would become central to a referendum still hasn't been answered
    Thats because as evidenced last night,drill down into SF's relationship with the IRA and it remains their awkward Achilles heel


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    #592
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    Finty Lemon wrote: »
    Everything else is just expendable populism. I you believe for a second that they have any real interest in health, education or environment you are quite naïve

    You're right i suppose,

    I mean it's not as if they live here, have kids in school, get sick and need treatment or need to breathe air like the rest of us:rolleyes:


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    #593
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    Mortelaro wrote: »
    They should campaign to Put it to a referendum then and stop trying to sneak in such a fundamental policy hidden by other domestic issues
    My question as to naming who is in jail which let's face it would become central to a referendum still hasn't been answered
    Thats because as evidenced last night,drill down into SF's relationship with the IRA and it remains their awkward Achilles heel

    Surely though you realise it's just not SF that have an issue with the SCC. It may be obvious what SF's problem is but the problem other organisations have are more to do with proper justice and the protection of human rights.


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    #594
    Mortelaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭Mortelaro


    Yurt! wrote: »

    You wanted an example of someone convicted in the wrong and you got a textbook example of a miscarriage of justice related to the SCC. Checkmate. Move on.

    When all you have is an actual miscarriage of justice that was overturned,you are struggling
    Now back to my question which actually was who is in jail now or served a sentence that wasnt overturned and shouldn't have been jailed by the SCC


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    #595
    Yurt2
    Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Mortelaro wrote: »
    When all you have is an actual miscarriage of justice that was overturned,you are struggling
    Now back to my question which actually was who is in jail now or served a sentence that wasnt overturned and shouldn't have been jailed by the SCC

    It wasn't overturned. He was granted a presedential pardon in extraordinary circumstances. Please please tell me you understand the distinction.

    You tried to play gotcha and now you have egg on your face. And you've shifted your question because you look silly.


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    #596
    TuringBot47
    Registered Users Posts: 991 ✭✭✭TuringBot47


    sbsquarepants wrote: »
    He's not my buddy.

    You're dragging up a 40 year old cold case.
    Likely all the guards and judges of that case are long retired.
    sbsquarepants wrote: »
    Because again, you are showing exactly what's wrong with the SCC set up.

    You're comparing a random internet poster with a chief superintendent.

    Anyway, Sinn Feins deep roots in terrorism and criminality are only one aspect of many of why they should not be in government.


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    #597
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Plumbthedepths wrote: »
    Surely though you realise it's just not SF that have an issue with the SCC. It may be obvious what SF's problem is but the problem other organisations have are more to do with proper justice and the protection of human rights.
    Sure. But they're not blanket calling for its abolition. They have all in effect recognised that the SCC was valid and had a purpose, but that it should now be re-examined to ascertain if that purpose still exists.

    Sinn Féin have always wanted to outright abolish it. This, "we want a review" stance is very new and smells a little bit like a trojan horse.

    It's worth noting that there is no perfect system. Jury trials frequently make the wrong call. There's an argument that some individuals will get a fairer trial in a closed non-jury court than an open one with a jury.

    The court processes should be continually tweaked and re-evaluated. It can always be improved. But anyone living in this country knows that the threats that the SCC was set up to protect against, still exist. There is no safe haven for witnesses or juries, so the safety of these individuals must balanced against the rights of another individual to a jury trial.


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    #598
    Yurt2
    Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    TuringBot47 wrote: »
    You're dragging up a 40 year old cold case.
    Likely all the guards and judges of that case are long retired

    Eh, a poster was trying to be a snark and asking for an example of the SCC convicting an innocent person, and it just so happens that the SCC delivered probably the most notable miscarriage of justice in the history of the state.


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    #599
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,280 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    Plumbthedepths wrote: »
    Surely though you realise it's just not SF that have an issue with the SCC. It may be obvious what SF's problem is but the problem other organisations have are more to do with proper justice and the protection of human rights.

    What body or organisation in Ireland thats not associated with the IRA or gangland criminality has an issue with the SCC ?


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    #600
    Mortelaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭Mortelaro


    Yurt! wrote: »
    It wasn't overturned. He was granted a presedential pardon in extraordinary circumstances. Please please tell me you understand the distinction.

    You tried to play gotcha and now you have egg on your face. And you've shifted your question because you look silly.

    I understand 3 things,the pardon request was at a government prerogative with good reason, a justice tool
    The example is the only one you have in 48 years and it was dealt with which is not a bar to jump for abolition
    And 3 you haven't answered my question regarding who other than Nicky you'd release
    You need to justify your case with a lot more than 1 in 48 years and one that hasn't been dealt wit
    So name them
    Build your case
    Go for the referendum, let the public hear the facts


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    #601
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,668 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    Finty Lemon wrote: »
    Single issue parties struggle in government.

    SF are a single issue party i.e. drive the Prods into the sea by any means necessary.

    Everything else is just expendable populism. I you believe for a second that they have any real interest in health, education or environment you are quite naïve

    as are you going by this post


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