Could Sinn Fein actually run a country ?

Plumbthedepths

Marc Wailing Wimp wrote: »

Maybe the only way to get the country over this infantile romance with Sinn Fein and the left is to vote them into power.

Five years of chaos and broken election promises later, people might appreciate that perpetual hurlers on the ditch don't do well when forced onto the pitch.

FF were the main government party '07 to '11 , how did that work out? '11 to '16 FG were in office as the main party one of the main promises I remember being broken was" not another red cent to the banks". Have no time for SF but if you are claiming SF will wreck the gaff and break promises FG/FF already have form for this.

seamus

Yurt! wrote: »

It's how the Murphy case ended up there, bog standard tax offenses. An abuse of process in many people's eyes.

The same people who'll happily turn a blind eye to Slab Murphy's victims who were denied any right to due process.

You'll forgive me if I don't put any stock in their opinions.

Yurt2

seamus wrote: »

The same people who'll happily turn a blind eye to Slab Murphy's victims who were denied any right to due process.

You'll forgive me if I don't put any stock in their opinions.

Nope. I'm in favour of criminal offenses, all criminal offenses, when detected, being proffered in front of a jury. That's the standard that should be upheld. It's a fairly basic point - anything else undermines our justice system. You're wasting your time trying to paint me as some IRA sympathiser.

Some people's brains can't compute that it matters to many that our justice system maintains high standards.

bladespin

quokula wrote: »

We don't have a 2 party system, we have multiple parties covering a wide range of opinions and positions, and an electoral system that allows us to vote for any of them without worrying about wasting our votes. This has regularly produced coalition governments of multiple different parties who represent the view of the voters at that time.

Two parties tend to get more votes than the rest because they have for the most part done a pretty decent job over the years in turning Ireland into one of the best places in the world to live by most metrics, even if it is far from perfect, as nowhere is. But there is absolutely nothing systemic stopping people from choosing different representation if they so wish.

I understand, thank you, but still we very much do have a 2 party system, one way or another FF or FG have lead every government we've had, and not done an amazing job, we've limped from crisis to crisis, we're not a third world country by any stretch, well unless you waiting on a trolley in a HSE hospital.

eagle eye

Mary Lou was a FF'er back in the day so I'd guess they won't be any better than what's gone before them but I understand why people might be willing to give them a chance.

Feisar

No they couldn’t and they know this themselves. Not even running enough candidates to do so

maccored

eagle eye wrote: »

Mary Lou was a FF'er back in the day so I'd guess they won the any better than what's gone before them but I understand why people might be willing to give them a chance.

her family were FF alright. she wasnt a member (according to wikipedia)

Field east

Yurt! wrote: »

There wouldn't have been a NAMA fire sale of vast housing portfolios to vulture funds for one.

Higher house prices. Deliberate FG policy. OWN IT.

FG logic: For housing to be more affordable it needs to be more expensive.

You apparently , do not know why NAMA was formed the first place

topmanamillion

The way the independent/Denis O'Brien start hammering SF around every election would make you think he really doesn't want anyone other than FF/FG in power. His empire was built on a €50,000 bribe to a dodgy FF politician after all.

quokula

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

FF were the main government party '07 to '11 , how did that work out? '11 to '16 FG were in office as the main party one of the main promises I remember being broken was" not another red cent to the banks". Have no time for SF but if you are claiming SF will wreck the gaff and break promises FG/FF already have form for this.

Things happen, like global economic crises, like our biggest export market choosing to destroy their own economy in the name of nationalism, like livestock disease outbreaks, like compromising policies with coalition partners or unexpected changes in consumer activity that can never be 100% accurately predicted.

No government from any party anywhere in the world has ever maintained a full record of implementing every single policy as intended. However, what FFG and most other Irish parties have in common is that, based on the best available knowledge at the time of writing, the plans in their manifesto are real, achievable goals to be pursued.

You don't need to wait for SF to get into government to know nothing they say is worth the paper its written on, because it simply doesn't come close to adding up and they haven't even tried to come up with serious solutions to serious problems.

James Brown

Field east wrote: »

You apparently , do not know why NAMA was formed the first place

I know the result. Some people protected from creditors by bankruptcy had family buy back business and property at a knock down price. One got a company at a knock down price just before, (or after) being awarded a state contract through that company. The state sold off some properties dirt cheap to vulture funds...only to buy them back at a later date.
In short NAMA was about moving money around and enabled many of those who helped cause the crash get back to business quicker like nothing happened.

James Brown

topmanamillion wrote: »

The way the independent/Denis O'Brien start hammering SF around every election would make you think he really doesn't want anyone other than FF/FG in power. His empire was built on a €50,000 bribe to a dodgy FF politician after all.

He's not Indo anymore. It seems to be pro FF like the good old days.

eagle eye

quokula wrote:

No government from any party anywhere in the world has ever maintained a full record of implementing every single policy as intended. However, what FFG and most other Irish parties have in common is that, based on the best available knowledge at the time of writing, the plans in their manifesto are real, achievable goals to be pursued.

No, they put stuff in their manifesto which they never intend to do. The only reason they are in there is to attract votes. We have lots of proof of this.

quokula wrote:

You don't need to wait for SF to get into government to know nothing they say is worth the paper its written on, because it simply doesn't come close to adding up and they haven't even tried to come up with serious solutions to serious problems.

Its got as good a chance of working out as the FF/FG ones do.
I'm not ever voting SF but I'll pull up anybody coming out with horse **** like this.

Field east

Yurt! wrote: »

People have ended up with juryless trials on tax issues on the signature of the government appointed Attorney General. In fact, any individual can end up with a juryless trial for any alleged offense on the endorsement of the AG.

A trial in front of a jury of peers is a fundamental cornerstone of our justice system, and the AG is given far too much power with SCC legislation. It's an extremely unusual system in a common law jurisdiction.

Amnesty, the UN, Mary Robinson (in her former capacity of legal chair at TCD) and the Irish Council of Civil Liberties are among its critics - so, it's not just SF that have something to say.

It was conceived as a draconian measure in ww2 as a blunt instrument to as the government of the day were afraid of republican sympathetic juries during 'the emergency'.

*Not a SF member, and undecided voter.

We need go no further than the Late 21 year old Paul Quinn who was beaten to death by up to 10 locals , apparently over 10 years ago AND NOT ONE SCREED OF EVIDENCE has been fortcoming re who was responsible , etc, etc ,etc.. I wonder why? I myself have direct experience of an individual who witnessed a robbery but would not attend court as a witness because he was afraid of what might happen to him/ his property

Plumbthedepths

quokula wrote: »

Things happen, like global economic crises, like our biggest export market choosing to destroy their own economy in the name of nationalism, like livestock disease outbreaks, like compromising policies with coalition partners or unexpected changes in consumer activity that can never be 100% accurately predicted.

No government from any party anywhere in the world has ever maintained a full record of implementing every single policy as intended. However, what FFG and most other Irish parties have in common is that, based on the best available knowledge at the time of writing, the plans in their manifesto are real, achievable goals to be pursued.

You don't need to wait for SF to get into government to know nothing they say is worth the paper its written on, because it simply doesn't come close to adding up and they haven't even tried to come up with serious solutions to serious problems.

I'm around long enough to know that the majority of what is wrote on all manifestos is meaningless drivel that disappears at the door of coalition talks.
I despise Brendan Howlin for his and his party's behaviour 2011 to '16. However he hit the nail on the head any party promising increased services and lower taxes is taking the public for fools.
FF in 77 to win the election promised to abolish rates, this they did causing enormous damage to the state the effects of which are still felt.

efanton

quokula wrote: »

Things happen, like global economic crises, like our biggest export market choosing to destroy their own economy in the name of nationalism, like livestock disease outbreaks, like compromising policies with coalition partners or unexpected changes in consumer activity that can never be 100% accurately predicted.

No government from any party anywhere in the world has ever maintained a full record of implementing every single policy as intended. However, what FFG and most other Irish parties have in common is that, based on the best available knowledge at the time of writing, the plans in their manifesto are real, achievable goals to be pursued.

You don't need to wait for SF to get into government to know nothing they say is worth the paper its written on, because it simply doesn't come close to adding up and they haven't even tried to come up with serious solutions to serious problems.

Hold on there. I dont think anyone expected any government to do a 100% perfect job of delivering their program for government.
Can you honestly say that FG has even delivered 50%?
I couldnt, in fact I would argue it was not even 30%.

tell me one service that has been fixed in this country, just one out of the dozens possible?
Cant do that, so lets make it even easier. Name one service that has significantly improved?



Likewise FF have done the same thing time and time again.
Its not as if they dont know the result of doing something or not doing something that they have done before.

A government cant use the line that was not in the script so we are not responsible.
If that was case why not have a vote every four year for a program for government, and then let the civil servants just get on with it and deliver it and not have any government at all.
Governments are elected to handle the unexpected, to use best advice when given by the appropriate experts, and to change policies on the fly if what they planned is not having the intended effect. But primarily to actually make a genuine effort to deliver their program for government.
If you are suggesting that FF and FG are not capable of doing that then why are you supporting them?

Idbatterim

the above post nails it and I have said it again and again and again! The expectations here are so low, that all you have to do to retain power is not be totally ****e! not good, not even mediocre, but not absolutely ****e!

Mad_maxx

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

The problem with Sinn Fein is they are saying what people want to hear but don’t seem to be giving any real thought to how achieve this so called change everyone’s bleating on about.

Abolishing taxes for all but the super rich won’t work folks, sorry but that’s the reality.

Where do you expect the money for all this change to come from? We all have to pay our way in life.

And can we all please stop pretending the county was some sort of paradise before FG took power. It wasn’t. Not at all.

FF ran the economy into the ground, FG pulled it back out again by making hard decisions that needed to be made.

The problems with the health system and homelessness are not new and not of FGs making and voting in a new government won’t make them magically disappear.

A little bit of logical thinking please.

Plus in truth people don't want the necessary reform required to "fix" health.

It's a very small country, everyone has a friend or relative in the HSE and no matter how overpaid that friend - relative is or obsolete their job is, if they are let go or wages reduced, we won't be pleased

It's not just consultants who are highly paid

Yurt2

Field east wrote: »

You apparently , do not know why NAMA was formed the first place

I know full well. And I, and you, know full well what was done with the property portfolios under FG. Owwwwwn iiiiiiit.

FrancieBrady

Field east wrote: »

We need go no further than the Late 21 year old Paul Quinn who was beaten to death by up to 10 locals , apparently over 10 years ago AND NOT ONE SCREED OF EVIDENCE has been fortcoming re who was responsible , etc, etc ,etc.. I wonder why? I myself have direct experience of an individual who witnessed a robbery but would not attend court as a witness because he was afraid of what might happen to him/ his property

The only direct witnesses here were Paul Quinn's friends and his girlfriend.

Are you expecting SF to give evidence...how would that work or be admissible?

JohnnyFlash

Jesus, some of the 18 hours a day 1st time SF voters around here would do well to log off for a while. That hole you are digging is so deep you won’t be able to climb out of it.

FrancieBrady

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Jesus, some of the 18 hours a day 1st time SF voters around here would do well to log off for a while. That hole you are digging is so deep you won’t be able to climb out of it.

Have you a point Johnny? that is the question.

Idbatterim

quokula wrote: »

We don't have a 2 party system, we have multiple parties covering a wide range of opinions and positions, and an electoral system that allows us to vote for any of them without worrying about wasting our votes. This has regularly produced coalition governments of multiple different parties who represent the view of the voters at that time.

Two parties tend to get more votes than the rest because they have for the most part done a pretty decent job over the years in turning Ireland into one of the best places in the world to live by most metrics, even if it is far from perfect, as nowhere is. But there is absolutely nothing systemic stopping people from choosing different representation if they so wish.

LOL! LOL! near third world infrastructure, law and order? lol. heath? comedy. Mental health, anything health related? comedy. housing? comedy! A fifty percent marginal tax rate? comedy! The only ones doing bloody good out of it and who are world class by any country standards, is the wasters for life on welfare and , those in social housing are doing fairly nicely for themselves too, near zero rent. You cant look past the insane cost of it. The sheer amount of resources here thrown into the black holes of health, welfare and social housing here , along with a ridiculously small tax net, as good as no property tax , no water charges etc. What do hell for people expect ? I mean FG cant just magic up the money, they have to take a lot of the blame, but the population here at large, dont have a clue!

Ive been saying it for years and its obvious as hell, the finances are falling apart, even with a booming economy! a pre election budget last year and they didnt even give us their insulting tax cuts or throw more at the over the top welfare :rolleyes:

I cant wait to see where all this is headed, in a country that doesnt do decisions and wont reform blatantly insane issues like taxation, I get its politically difficult to do. But if FG had taken any remotely difficult decisions, the country would be in a far better place and they wouldnt have ex voters leaving in their droves

its good when you put "near third world" at the start of the post, it saves time

Yurt2

Idbatterim, you're going to give yourself a seizure one of these days. You'll be found slumped over your laptop, with a thread about Margret Cash open on your browser. Is that how you want to go out?

James Brown

Field east wrote: »

We need go no further than the Late 21 year old Paul Quinn who was beaten to death by up to 10 locals , apparently over 10 years ago AND NOT ONE SCREED OF EVIDENCE has been fortcoming re who was responsible , etc, etc ,etc.. I wonder why? I myself have direct experience of an individual who witnessed a robbery but would not attend court as a witness because he was afraid of what might happen to him/ his property

Seen this?

woohoo!!! wrote: »

Interesting comment by Bertie Ahern in 2007:

The murder in Monaghan last month of Paul Quinn "was not paramilitary but pertained to feuds about criminality that were taking place", the Taoiseach told the Dáil.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/garda-says-quinn-killing-a-criminal-feud-ahern-1.982248?mode=amp

joe40

Yurt! wrote: »

Nope. I'm in favour of criminal offenses, all criminal offenses, when detected, being proffered in front of a jury. That's the standard that should be upheld. It's a fairly basic point - anything else undermines our justice system. You're wasting your time trying to paint me as some IRA sympathiser.

Some people's brains can't compute that it matters to many that our justice system maintains high standards.

What is the situation in other countries especially EU countries in relation to non jury trials.
The special criminal court seems like some kind of sacred cow that can't be touched or criticised in any way, by our political class.
In fact it has been criticised by the UN and amnesty among others.

Field east

suicide_circus wrote: »

to anyone with strong reservations about SF i say this;

If (when) they form part of the next government and they succeed, great! The country will see significant improvement on housing and social inequity etc.

If (when) they form part of the next government and they don't succeed, it will put an end their professional opposition anti everything magic money tree politics for a while at least.

win win.

You are tossing a penny to decide to vote for. and if is the 2nd scenario that is delivered , then my one big worry is ‘ how long will it take the economy to recover and at what cost. The one guarantee is - going according to precident- that FG would be voted back again to restore the economy back to rude health - subject , of course, to it not being part of that gov

tayto lover

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The only direct witnesses here were Paul Quinn's friends and his girlfriend.

Are you expecting SF to give evidence...how would that work or be admissible?

I live in N.Louth Francie.
It’s well known who was responsible but people are afraid to open their mouths.
While Quinn was no angel, nobody deserved to die in such brutal circumstances.
The people who murdered him are connected to the IRA who are connected to SF.
There’s no escaping that fact.

Idbatterim

Deleted User wrote: »

its good when you put "near third world" at the start of the post, it saves time

what would you call it? have you left this country and gone to other "rich " european countries, what do you reckon of their multiple underground lines for city of the same scale as dublin. What do you think of raw sewage overflows into dublin bay. Boil water notices. Raw sewage being discharged into our rivers and oceans, in 2020! the issue with the leixlip water plant recently ,dont go hiding, address this!

Maybe you dont pay a marginal tax rate of FIFTY percent, but I do and you dont think I should expect better than this farce! Your expectations and excuses are why the government do nothing here!