"The Battle of Brexit is over; the Battle of Irexit is about to begin"

ancapailldorcha

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Surely they need to accept they are resource barren territories that need to barter away their independence to a larger entity going by your logic.

Quote me where I said this please.

eagle eye

eagle eye wrote: »

It's unbelievable that people can't understand that many want to remain Irish and not be called Europeans.

Where do you get the idea that "people" can't understand that?

I'd say, far more people want to identified as being Irish, than those wanting to be identified as European. For myself, I'm both Irish and European. I don't see any reason to separate the two.

eagle eye

Deleted User wrote:

I'd say, far more people want to identified as being Irish, than those wanting to be identified as European. For myself, I'm both Irish and European. I don't see any reason to separate the two.

Well we as a nation are very well received around the globe as Irish. There isn't the same love for other European countries so I like that our identity is Irish only.

Kermit.de.frog

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Quote me where I said this please.

It's implicit in everything you have typed in your last post.

Once again you've hit a wall and can't give a counter argument so you evade.

Kermit.de.frog

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

So the EU needs the trappings of statehood because Ireland is a "resource-barren island"?

Is that it, is that the argument?

So tell me what you think of Iceland and Singapore, for example, as small independent countries.

Surely they need to accept they are resource barren territories that need to barter away their independence to a larger entity going by your logic.

Iceland has an incredibly small population, and already hit the failed state mark. And Singapore has a major manufacturing industry, in addition to the financial services which have been established over centuries... Any other small countries you want to compare Ireland to? Perhaps ones with a similar history and geographical issues? Yup. Iceland is the closest, and that country hit the bottom fast, and has been struggling to come back from it, with a population of just 350k.

ancapailldorcha

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

It's implicit in everything you have typed in your last post.

Once again you've hit a wall and can't give a counter argument so you evade.

More silly nonsense you've invented to argue against so. Grand.

eagle eye

eagle eye wrote: »

Well we as a nation are very well received around the globe as Irish. There isn't the same love for other European countries so I like that our identity is Irish only.

What are you basing that on?
We don't even appear on a gallup global perceptions poll:
https://news.gallup.com/poll/1624/perceptions-foreign-countries.aspx

eagle eye

eagle eye wrote: »

Well we as a nation are very well received around the globe as Irish. There isn't the same love for other European countries so I like that our identity is Irish only.

Again.. there's no reason to separate that identity.. unless you can tell why we should?

It doesn't have to be one or the other.

Kermit.de.frog

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

More silly nonsense you've invented to argue against so. Grand.

You've nothing to argue, made no effort at a coherent response, so instead you try to insult the poster.

Good day to you sir.

ancapailldorcha

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

You've nothing to argue, made no effort at a coherent response, so instead you try to insult the poster.

Good day to you sir.

I'm not going to have you pretend that I said things that I did not say.

I've asked to make your own argument for Irexit. You can't. I'd ask you to show where Irish identity is being subsumed by a European one and based on your above feelings posts I daresey there'd be nothing from you there either.

Kermit.de.frog

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'm not going to have you pretend that I said things that I did not say.

I've asked to make your own argument for Irexit. You can't. I'd ask you to show where Irish identity is being subsumed by a European one and based on your above feelings posts I daresey there'd be nothing from you there either.

Too late throwing the toys out of the pram. You are both seeing things that have not been typed and pretending to have not typed things either.

Heroic evasion even by boards standards.

This means you have already lost any argument you had no intention of making.

Again, good day to you. :cool:

CelticRambler

eagle eye wrote: »

It's unbelievable that people can't understand that many want to remain Irish and not be called Europeans.
I'm with Kermit here, happy to remain a part of the EU but I'm Irish and proud of it. I don't want to be called a European.

By extension, then, it would be perfectly reasonable for someone from (say) Cork to reject the notion that they were Irish on the grounds that Ireland was ruled by/from Dublin?

Anyone with that kind of mentality ought to struck from the electoral register on the grounds of diminished capacity ... :rolleyes:

I am Irish, 100% pure (according to my parents' DNA samples) and proud to be so. Talk to any of the men and women that I live and work with and they'll tell you that there's no doubt that I'm not French. But walking through the corridors of the European Parliament in Strasbourg, I feel just as much at home as walking the aisles of my local French supermarket or my sister's local SuperValu, or traipsing the halls of the family stronghold in Bunratty.

The Irish contributed to the development of many of Europe's best known cities, and even established some of the lesser-known ones. Most of the territory from the Vosges mountains in France to the eastern Alps in Austria is one giant Irish monastic colonisation. The same goes for many of the great vintners and distillers families in western France - established by the Wild Geese back in the day, and still going strong in 2020. So yes, you could argue that we are not "European" because it's more a case of them being Irish. :pac:

eagle eye

Deleted User wrote:

What are you basing that on? We don't even appear on a gallup global perceptions poll:

Why don't we? Population?

Padre_Pio

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

So the EU needs the trappings of statehood because Ireland is a "resource-barren island"?

Is that it, is that the argument?

So tell me what you think of Iceland and Singapore, for example, as small independent countries.

Surely they need to accept they are resource barren territories that need to barter away their independence to a larger entity going by your logic.

Iceland and Singapore are incomparable to Ireland from a population, size, economy, geographical location etc.

eagle eye

Deleted User wrote:

Again.. there's no reason to separate that identity.. unless you can tell why we should?

I've just told you, to not be associated with other countries as a nation.

eagle eye

ancapailldorcha wrote:

I've asked to make your own argument for.

He wasn't making an argument for Irexit. He is against Irexit.

eagle eye

eagle eye wrote: »

I've just told you, to not be associated with other countries as a nation.

Except Europe is not a nation... and is not perceived by anyone as being one.

You still didn't answer my question.

ancapailldorcha

eagle eye wrote: »

He wasn't making an argument for Irexit. He is against Irexit.

That sort of disingenuous bad faith posting suggests that he can't be bothered to admit to it because he knows it's a daft idea.

eagle eye

Deleted User wrote:

Except Europe is not a nation... and is not perceived by anyone as being one.
You still didn't answer my question.

Are you for real, my original post was saying that I don't want to be told I'm European instead of Irish.
I want to remain an Irishman from an island off the coast of the European continent.
I'm happy to be part of the EU, for financially purposes, but my nationality is very important.

Wibbs

CelticRambler wrote: »

The Irish contributed to the development of many of Europe's best known cities, and even established some of the lesser-known ones. Most of the territory from the Vosges mountains in France to the eastern Alps in Austria is one giant Irish monastic colonisation.

Indeed. While the "land of saints and scholars" was insular by geography, it was anything but insular as far as mindset. It was very much "European" in focus and outlook and helped get Europe get back some of what it had lost in previous centuries.

I certainly feel more European than I do American or Asian or African. Britain always had a "the wogs start at Calais"* attitude, born of an odd mix of self confidence and lack of it and a fear of invasion(though they were more subtly invaded a few times after 1066). Add in a gra for the old days of an empire long gone musty, a lack of understanding of how much the EU has helped them, a privileged class that will win no matter what and Brexit doesn't seem such a daft idea for many British people, well more English people.







*before pearls are clutched by some, it's a Fawlty Towers reference.

eagle eye

ancapailldorcha wrote:

That sort of disingenuous bad faith posting suggests that he can't be bothered to admit to it because he knows it's a daft idea.

A daft idea to want to be Irish and not European?
I'm sorry but it's you that's not making any sense.

ancapailldorcha

eagle eye wrote: »

A daft idea to want to be Irish and not European?

Can you quote me here? I've not said that anybody shouldn't be Irish.

Wibbs

I'm a Dubliner who's also Irish. Many Corkonians would take that even further. So what?

ancapailldorcha

Wibbs wrote: »

I'm a Dubliner who's also Irish. Many Corkonians would take that even further. So what?

I don't really know where this is coming from in general to be honest. I'm from Donegal and I'd just as easily identify as Irish, European or as an Ulsterman as I come from an Anglican, pro-Union background.

To be honest, I spend a lot more time thinking about cats.

Pablo Escobar

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Exact same argument Brexiters use against Scotland leaving the UK to try and frighten them.

Same as in 1920 when the Dublin Chamber warned Irish people and pledged it's allegiance to the Crown (or as many sneered the half crown).

The argument the English used was was that Scotland's economy would be decimated because they'd leave the EU. It kind of undermines your point TBH.

ancapailldorcha

Pablo Escobar wrote: »

The argument the English used was was that Scotland's economy would be decimated because they'd leave the EU. It kind of undermines your point TBH.

Yeah and Scotland would probably join the EU afterwards. The only thing Spain is insisting on is that it be a constitutional process so as not to empower their separatists.

eagle eye

eagle eye wrote: »

Are you for real, my original post was saying that I don't want to be told I'm European instead of Irish.
I want to remain an Irishman from an island off the coast of the European continent.
I'm happy to be part of the EU, for financially purposes, but my nationality is very important.

Ok. you don't understand my response. fair enough. We can leave it at that.

Geuze

eagle eye wrote: »

It's unbelievable that people can't understand that many want to remain Irish and not be called Europeans.
I'm with Kermit here, happy to remain a part of the EU but I'm Irish and proud of it. I don't want to be called a European.

I am Irish.

I suppose I am also European, given that the island of Ireland is in Europe.

But nobody calls me European.

I am never asked "are you European?"

All Irish people are European, given the location of the island.

Geuze

eagle eye wrote: »

Are you for real, my original post was saying that I don't want to be told I'm European instead of Irish.
I want to remain an Irishman from an island off the coast of the European continent.
I'm happy to be part of the EU, for financially purposes, but my nationality is very important.

I don't feel my nationality is under threat by EU membership.

I am Irish, I will forever be Irish.

Joining the Single Market and EMU did not make me less Irish.

It made my life easier, it made me richer, but no less Irish.

eagle eye

Geuze wrote:

I don't feel my nationality is under threat by EU membership.
I am Irish, I will forever be Irish.

Joining the Single Market and EMU did not make me less Irish.

It made my life easier, it made me richer, but no less Irish.

I don't know why you are quoting me.
I'm in agreement with everything in your post.
I just don't want us pushed towards a situation where we are told we are Europeans first and foremost.

ancapailldorcha

eagle eye wrote: »

I don't know why you are quoting me.
I'm in agreement with everything in your post.
I just don't want us pushed towards a situation where we are told we are Europeans first and foremost.

Who is telling people this?

whisky_galore

No one with any grasp of sanity is the faintest bit interested in Irexit fúckery.

eagle eye

whisky_galore wrote:

No one with any grasp of sanity is the faintest bit interested in Irexit fúckery.

Ah here, nobody that cares about money has any interest is the truth.

topper75

The Satanist wrote: »

Leave EU
Print money
Buy nice stuff with money

Great idea, LIKED AND SHARED

You'll never print money faster than the EU themselves anyway!

For my part sovereignty and membership of a trading block are two essential things, but two separate things. They only become interdependent where national politicians are rubber-spined. Sadly for Ireland...

I don't agree with the nuclear button idea behind Brexit. They had some excellent points though. Why does a trading block need an anthem, parliament or flag? Whey do external defence policies need alignment? I rarely see any discussion on this in our media. Brits should have stayed in the block and fought the good fight.

saabsaab

There is and I doubt there will be any appetite in most Irish people for leaving the EU. North and South.

AllForIt

I must say I do cringe a bit when I head ppl say they are 'European' other than when meant geographically or in the small case one is well travelled or have strong family connections there. I might feel differently if lived on the mainland. I just find it a bit pretentious.

I feel no more a connection with Germany than I do with New Zealand. If I'd go higher than Irish I'd go the whole hog and say I'm earth-ish.

Geuze

eagle eye wrote: »

I don't know why you are quoting me.
I'm in agreement with everything in your post.
I just don't want us pushed towards a situation where we are told we are Europeans first and foremost.

Great, we agree.

One question - who is telling us that we are Europeans first and foremost?

Nobody has ever told me that, and I don't expect anybody ever will.

Geuze

The Satanist wrote: »

Leave EU
Print money
Buy nice stuff with money

Great idea, LIKED AND SHARED

We have never had our own independent currency in Ireland.

So it's not something we can return to.


Also, note that since 2014/15, the ECB has engaged in QE and created over 1 trillion extra euro.

eagle eye

Geuze wrote:

One question - who is telling us that we are Europeans first and foremost?
Nobody has ever told me that, and I don't expect anybody ever will.
Great, we agree.

We have a flag, an anthem and a parliament in Europe. Powers are being slowly eroded from national parliaments to the European one.
It's pretty obvious when you look at what's going on and see what the plan is.

ancapailldorcha

eagle eye wrote: »

We have a flag, an anthem and a parliament in Europe. Powers are being slowly eroded from national parliaments to the European one.
It's pretty obvious when you look at what's going on and see what the plan is.

What evidence do you have for this?

Hamsterchops

Pablo Escobar wrote: »

The argument the English used was was that Scotland's economy would be decimated because they'd leave the EU.

The English?

Maybe you should blame Westminster.?

Podge_irl

eagle eye wrote: »

We have a flag, an anthem and a parliament in Europe. Powers are being slowly eroded from national parliaments to the European one.
It's pretty obvious when you look at what's going on and see what the plan is.

So does every other trade block.

https://twitter.com/EmporersNewC/status/967166196868141058?s=20]

The parliament was a function of people wanting more control over the EU and trying to correct a democratic deficit. Personally I don't see the need for it, but it was pushed for by those complaining about the status of the EU. It has nothing like the kind of power that the Irish Parliament has.

eagle eye

eagle eye wrote: »

We have a flag, an anthem and a parliament in Europe. Powers are being slowly eroded from national parliaments to the European one.
It's pretty obvious when you look at what's going on and see what the plan is.

Can you name one power that has been eroded?

Tacitus Kilgore

What we have here are full time contrarians being contrary.. the aul reliables..


Anyone who supports any form of Irexit is stupid. There is no room for "opinions" on it, because any opinion that ends with taking Ireland out of the EU is not based in any form of reality.

eagle eye

Deleted User wrote:

Can you name one power that has been eroded?

Agriculture, Fisheries, environment and trade.

ancapailldorcha

eagle eye wrote: »

Agriculture, Fisheries, environment and trade.

How exactly? Instead of just posting buzzwords, how about you actually make a point?

eagle eye

Tacitus Kilgore wrote:

Anyone who supports any form of Irexit is stupid. There is no room for "opinions" on it, because any opinion that ends with taking Ireland out of the EU is not based in any form of reality.

I'm not in favour of leaving but the only reasons for me wanting to remain in it are financial.
I'm sure there's plenty of good reasons for wanting to leave but the big thing is money. We'd be broke and I and most people don't want that.

Hamsterchops

Hamsterchops wrote: »

The English?

Maybe you should blame Westminster.?

The basic lack of knowledge on some topics is quite alarming.

Bit cynical

Stay in the EEA and therefore single market with the EU whilst also free to trade with the UK and keep open border with the North.

Pablo Escobar

Hamsterchops wrote: »

The English?

Maybe you should blame Westminster.?

That was a very deliberate comment on my part. A generalisation, but deliberate.