Immigration and the housing crisis

4068ac1elhodqr

dxhound2005 wrote: »

There is full employment in the country now. Being a rich country our own people get the better jobs and we rely on immigrants to do a lot of the so called unskilled work. This was our history in the past, going to England and America to do the jobs their natives did not like doing.

Also, destined for the past, is most of the unskilled jobs/workers of today.

Automation will make about 40% of unskilled humans redundant from the workforce by the mid 2030. Welcome to the 4th industrial reveloution.

On top of this looming factor, estimates are also for brexit to knock off 100,000 jobs, when it finally occurs on 31st Dec.

beejee

dxhound2005 wrote: »

There is full employment in the country now. Being a rich country our own people get the better jobs and we rely on immigrants to do a lot of the so called unskilled work. This was our history in the past, going to England and America to do the jobs their natives did not like doing.

That's the theory that's bandied about.

However, even in this very thread, you have people proclaiming that the "great jobs" are out of reach of Irish people because we don't have the skilllz.

So...whats the reality then, if we aren't good enough for the "good" jobs, and too lazy for the "bad"jobs?

What's the game here? Is this starting to sound like a purposeful contradiction? Would such purposeful confusion be utilised to, I don't know, benefit a small few who profit from immigration? I'd be sceptical myself!

dxhound2005

tonysopprano wrote: »

How many work permits were issued last year and in particular to UNSKILLED (mostly from Brazil).

Why are we issuing permits for unskilled labour when we have multiple thousands on the dole?

Because the long term unemployed are less attractive prospects for employers in some cases. Like the famous Mrs Cash we hear about. Would you employ people like her?

paddyuibh

dxhound2005 wrote: »

That figure of 17% born abroad is from the 2016 Census. It should not be confused with nationality. Irish families with children born abroad can return to Ireland. Between the 2011 and 2016 Censuses there was a decrease in the number of non nationals living in the country, and they represented 11.6% of the population in 2016.


Between 2011 and 2016 the number of non-Irish nationals
fell for the first time since the question was introduced
on the census in 2002 and stood at 535,475 down from
544,357 five years earlier.

The proportion of the population who were non-Irish
nationals has also fallen from 12.2 per cent in 2011 to 11.6
per cent in 2016.

If your telling me that today in Ireland only 11.6% or around so of the population is foreign. Then your delusional and need to wake up lol I would easily say near 20% is foreign!

Mass Immigration doesn't work and hasn't anywhere else without problems arising.

For the people who are all for the Immigration into Ireland are with there heads in the sand. Ye talk about how Ireland wouldn't run without them but never accept the flaws with Immigration! Like the housing crisis, increase in Crime, and set agends to suit some of there belives.

beejee

tonysopprano wrote: »

How many work permits were issued last year and in particular to UNSKILLED (mostly from Brazil).

Why are we issuing permits for unskilled labour when we have multiple thousands on the dole?

It's all so crystal clear.

Yet the narrative has been so powerful that it's akin to convincing people it's natural to walk on all fours and them believing it.

Crazy! Yet here we are, a large swathe of us going "woof woof"

Lefty Bicek

dxhound2005 wrote: »

There is full employment in the country now. Being a rich country our own people get the better jobs and we rely on immigrants to do a lot of the so called unskilled work. This was our history in the past, going to England and America to do the jobs their natives did not like doing.

'Our' history in the past, could just as accurately be portrayed -

Irish went to England and America and were often resented for the downward pressure on wages they caused. This frequently led to social unrest, and violence.

dxhound2005

paddyuibh wrote: »

If your telling me that today in Ireland only 11.6% or around so of the population is foreign. Then your delusional and need to wake up lol I would easily say near 20% is foreign!

Mass Immigration doesn't work and hasn't anywhere else without problems arising.

For the people who are all for the Immigration into Ireland are with there heads in the sand. Ye talk about how Ireland wouldn't run without them but never accept the flaws with Immigration! Like the housing crisis, increase in Crime, and set agends to suit some of there belives.

I said that the figures are from the 2016 Census. I would believe the Census ahead of anecdotal reportage here, or ideas that people have in their heads with nothing to back them up.

beejee

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Because the long term unemployed are less attractive prospects for employers in some cases. Like the famous Mrs Cash we hear about. Would you employ people like her?

I'll counter that. There are many a foreign Ms cash amongst us.

I'm not happy with either type, but one we "have to deal with", whereas one is being extended an invitation to join in.

str8talkingguy

bubblypop wrote: »

Any proof of this?

Next you will be asking me for a link or you will provide me some other link of some survey financed by the people orchestrating this farce that contradicts what i'm saying.

If you stepped down from your ivory towers and opened your eyes a bit you might see whats really going on,but why bother when life is so good right.

Believe it or not but i have seen whats going on here with my own eyes. The hap scheme is designed to line the pockets of our poor landlords,and 99 times out of a 100 is a young Irish family being moved around b&bs.

I understand part of why the immigrants get the houses is people in positions of authority are afraid to be called racist but the reality of it is the immigrants are getting all the"forever homes" the Irish as usual abusing their own,we are one of the weakest if not the weakest nations on earth for the way we let down and abuse our own instead of standing up for ourselves we put it all on our own.

dxhound2005

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

'Our' history in the past, could just as accurately be portrayed -

Irish went to England and America and were often resented for the downward pressure on wages they caused. This frequently led to social unrest, and violence.

It all worked out pretty well in the end, except for the current undocumented. America and England are now getting their so called unskilled from other places, and the Irish are part of the of settled prosperous population.

lainey_d_123

beejee wrote: »

So to combine your post with other post...

Irish people: don't have the skills for all the "great jobs in demand", while simultaneously, magically, we won't work in cafes and nursing homes and factories etc.

What use ARE Irish people then? Are we just getting in the way of all these magnificent others?

It really is reaching absurdity now. No wonder nothing works in the place!

This is the bloody point!! If Irish people were willing to do these jobs, there would be no need to import anybody.

I know dozens of people who think they're too good to work in nursing homes or cafes and believe the world owes them a living, despite having zero qualifications, zero skills and providing zero value to anyone.

tonysopprano

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

'Our' history in the past, could just as accurately be portrayed -

Irish went to England and America and were often resented for the downward pressure on wages they caused. This frequently led to social unrest, and violence.

All this bull about the Irish emigrating all over the world since 1840s is a false narrative. For those that did go, they worked or they died (most times more than 1 job).
There was no free housing or medical care or welfare of any kind.

Ireland today is a magnet for economic migrants because like fools we hand out money and houses will-nilly, to the detriment of our own population

beejee

greenfield21 wrote: »

How do people see the years ahead playing on this one though? Imo I think alot of people realise our economy is built on globalization so it would be hypocrisy to complain therefore the previous views will never gain any traction. A global recession might be the catalyst, it would definitely create a further swing to the right, crisis breeds populism etc.

A global recession is a certainty, it's only "when" as a question.

I'll tell you, it will be really interesting to see societys reaction when they are no longer staring at their feet dredging into work every day. They'll have time for a good look around.

And I doubt it will be a joyous reaction.

beejee

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

This is the bloody point!! If Irish people were willing to do these jobs, there would be no need to import anybody.

I know dozens of people who think they're too good to work in nursing homes or cafes and believe the world owes them a living, despite having zero qualifications, zero skills and providing zero value to anyone.

I was referencing several other posts in this thread that specifically said "we have to hire foreigners, because the Irish don't have the skils".

Fine.

But Irish people are also too lazy to work "menial" jobs.

Great

So what use are Irish people then?

It sounds like a lot of double speak to me. You know what double speak is used for? Bullshytting ones way out of a losing position. It's also used in abusive relationships to control people, no matter what they do its wrong, so they become demoralised and submissive.

Like goldilocks is always saying, "it's juuuuusst right!"

lainey_d_123

beejee wrote: »

I was referencing several other posts in this thread that specifically said "we have to hire foreigners, because the Irish don't have the skils".

Fine.

But Irish people are also too lazy to work "menial" jobs.

Great

So what use are Irish people then?

It sounds like a lot of double speak to me. You know what double speak is used for? Bullshytting ones way out of a losing position. It's also used in abusive relationships to control people, no matter what they do its wrong, so they become demoralised and submissive.

Like goldilocks is always saying, "it's juuuuusst right!"

Such a major logic fail.

You are making my point for me.

Both these things are true. There is a shortage of highly skilled professionals in Ireland, and there is also a shortage of people with no skills who are willing to do unskilled work.

And yet you don't seem to understand.

dxhound2005

beejee wrote: »

A global recession is a certainty, it's only "when" as a question.

I'll agree with you on that one. There have been 47 recessions/depressions/crashes since they started measuring these things in America.

Back in the day the big problems here were inflation getting on for 20%, leading to similar mortgage interest rates. Unemployment regularly over 15%. Thousands of strikes by workers every year. And mass emigration. We were told that when all those problems were solved everything would be OK.

On the world stage the end of the Cold War and the threat of nuclear destruction were the things which would bring the world to rights.

All those problems are solved now, but people seem to want to be unhappy about other stuff.

beejee

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

Such a major logic fail.

You are making my point for me.

Both these things are true. There is a shortage of highly skilled professionals in Ireland, and there is also a shortage of people with no skills who are willing to do unskilled work.

And yet you don't seem to understand.

I think it's a narrative that is used to good effect.

Note how even in your posts, Irish people are put down, while non-irish are praised.

I think it's very sneaky.

Besides that... How do you square "lazy" foreigners within your narrative (it's not your narrative, to be clear, it's someone elses)?

Can you admit that there are "lazy" foreigners? Will you try to minimise it, "there's only a few of them"?

Will you equally minimise "lazy" Irish, that "there's only a few of them" too?

Can you feel the shaky ground giving way beneath you?

dxhound2005

beejee wrote: »

I think it's a narrative that is used to good effect.

Note how even in your posts, Irish people are put down, while non-irish are praised.

I think it's very sneaky.

Besides that... How do you square "lazy" foreigners within your narrative (it's not your narrative, to be clear, it's someone elses)?

Can you admit that there are "lazy" foreigners? Will you try to minimise it, "there's only a few of them"?

Will you equally minimise "lazy" Irish, that "there's only a few of them" too?

Can you feel the shaky ground giving way beneath you?

Around the developed world 4% to 6% unemployment is regarded as effectively full employment. Employers need to get their workers from outside that small number who are not suitable for their vacancies, and that can mean looking abroad.

Saying that Ireland will continue to need immigrants to fill vacancies is not a slur on Irish people.

Ahwell

To solve the housing crisis we need a lot of immigrant construction workers to help build those houses. As it stands our construction sector is not big enough.

beejee

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I'll agree with you on that one. There have been 47 recessions/depressions/crashes since they started measuring these things in America.

Back in the day the big problems here were inflation getting on for 20%, leading to similar mortgage interest rates. Unemployment regularly over 15%. Thousands of strikes by workers every year. And mass emigration. We were told that when all those problems were solved everything would be OK.

On the world stage the end of the Cold War and the threat of nuclear destruction were the things which would bring the world to rights.

All those problems are solved now, but people seem to want to be unhappy about other stuff.

It's true.

Now, I don't mean to take everything to extremes, but it's a hard sell to someone waiting 10 years for an operation (from a problem that'll kill them in 5 ), that they shouldn't grumble.

So rapid has the immigration been into Ireland, that I'd wager that most of the living population remembers when life's necessities (not luxuries) were much more attainable.

Again, not everything is down to immigration, but when many (?!) outright refuse to even acknowledge it's significant role in degrading necessities like housing and health care, man, it's going to get blowback.

Nothing was ever perfect, but certain things were better.

dxhound2005

beejee wrote: »

It's true.

Now, I don't mean to take everything to extremes, but it's a hard sell to someone waiting 10 years for an operation (from a problem that'll kill them in 5 ), that they shouldn't grumble.

I hear there's a two year waiting list for the maternity hospital in Portlaoise.

beejee

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Around the developed world 4% to 6% unemployment is regarded as effectively full employment. Employers need to get their workers from outside that small number who are not suitable for their vacancies, and that can mean looking abroad.

Saying that Ireland will continue to need immigrants to fill vacancies is not a slur on Irish people.

Sounds good on paper. But let's see his specific response to my specific questions. It will say a lot on a certain narrative.

The big issue with what you say is down to sustainability.

There might literally be employment opportunities available, but everything associated with those jobs is not available (housing, traffic, health etc)

So, you have to draw a line.

I might have 7 thousand cakes in front of me, and all lovely and delicious. But my stomach can't fit it in. So you take as much as you can without becoming sick, because it's nice!

Greed, on the other hand, will make you sick. And that's essentially the problem here, greed.

greendom

beejee wrote: »

Here's a story for you. An eastern European in one of the forever homes from the government (how?!?!). The neighbour is from the same country too (!!)

An accident resulted in one their forever homes being damaged. Council comes in to fix it for them. Neighbour "falls" over construction work...straight on the compo bandwagon.

People need to snap the fook out of it about a lot of these angels.

Sounds like a story alright!

Lefty Bicek

dxhound2005 wrote: »

It all worked out pretty well in the end, except for the current undocumented. America and England are now getting their so called unskilled from other places, and the Irish are part of the of settled prosperous population.

And in Ireland, many Irish people do unskilled, thankless, low-paid work, or a variety of reasons. Despite the notion that immigrants do the work that the natives 'won't' do.

It's almost like saying that as a society gets 'richer', it's people get smarter. They don't.

A closed society like that would be grim, as it was for those of us in the '80's who were in the position of having vastly more ability than opportunity.

But we didn't starve to death either. And we wouldn't.

The presentation of immigration as something without which we would be doomed, is really not on. It's a bit insulting actually.


I would also like to point out, from my own experience, that the attitudes of immigrants themselves can be quite interesting and complex.

And the harder-working and entrepreneurial they are, the more interesting.

They frequently see the other side of the debate for themselves, can put themselves in the shoes of the host, and need no saving whatsoever by do-gooders.

beejee

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I hear there's a two year waiting list for the maternity hospital in Portlaoise.

You know, I wouldn't be surprised

dxhound2005

beejee wrote: »

Sounds good on paper. But let's see his specific response to my specific questions. It will say a lot on a certain narrative.

The big issue with what you say is down to sustainability.

There might literally be employment opportunities available, but everything associated with those jobs is not available (housing, traffic, health etc)

So, you have to draw a line.

I might have 7 thousand cakes in front of me, and all lovely and delicious. But my stomach can't fit it in. So you take as much as you can without becoming sick, because it's nice!

Greed, on the other hand, will make you sick. And that's essentially the problem here, greed.

The country managed to increase the population rapidly, and solve the emigration and unemployment crises. With the general population living longer and healthier lives than ever before. You could say you are lucky to be living in one of the most prosperous countries in the world, at the very best times in history.

beejee

greendom wrote: »

Sounds like a story alright!

That's the spirit! Everythings a lie unless I like it!

4068ac1elhodqr

Ahwell wrote: »

To solve the housing crisis we need a lot of immigrant construction workers to help build those houses. As it stands our construction sector is not big enough.

Where will they live, when they all arrive to build the badly needed houses?

The construction sector should've offered better enticements (pay, and quality of training) to the building trade apprentice pathways, to the youth of Ireland, as soon as it was realised there may be a need for a few houses.

beejee

dxhound2005 wrote: »

The country managed to increase the population rapidly, and solve the emigration and unemployment crises. With the general population living longer and healthier lives than ever before. You could say you are lucky to be living in one of the most prosperous countries in the world, at the very best times in history.

I could say that, but it's not entirely true.

Housing is a joke, health care is semi-disastrous.

All the government's did was swap one set of a problems for another.

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that if we had had a pair of penguins running the country, it would have happened anyway. No control, no planning.

Watch another recession drop on us like a bomb, the penguins screaming, and then back to massive unemployment and woe-be-god emigration again. The penguins have no impact.

This country has no control or direction. At least a pair of penguins could be amusing in the meantime.

To add, they didn't "manage" to increase the population, people fluted in because there was something to get here, and they weren't stopped.

str8talkingguy

Lydia Juicy Hairpiece wrote: »

Where will they live, when they all arrive to build the badly needed houses?

The construction sector should've offered better enticements (pay, and quality of training) to the building trade apprentice pathways, to the youth of Ireland, as soon as it was realised there may be a need for a few houses.

Didn't take us long to get from ghost estates and far too many houses built to actually people believing the opposite is true now,failing to open their eyes to all the boarded up and empty house all around them,couldn't make it up.