Immigration and the housing crisis

alastair

ghost of ireland past wrote: »

Would people just stop engaging with posters who aren't genuine.

The intention of those non-genuine posters is to close down all discussion of immigration, by being babies and liars about everything. They can't handle the truth and they should be pitied for that.

Stop engaging with them. They have nothing to say, except the same nonsense over and over.

Immigration is having a huge effect on this country, we have a housing crisis caused by immigration, and few people are ever deported.

Vote for new parties if you want something different, otherwise stop complaining. Irish people come across as being incapable of running their own country.

Alternatively, ignore thin-skinned posters who can’t defend their unsubstantiated biases.

TwoMonthsOff

alastair wrote: »

Alternatively, ignore thin-skinned posters who can’t defend their unsubstantiated biases.

Or you could stop making stuff up, not so long ago you were on here telling us everyone given deportation orders went voluntarily. And now you're on here saying 20% of deportations are must be enforced.

You are a liar and a fraud.

alastair

TwoMonthsOff wrote: »

Or you could stop making stuff up, not so long ago you were on here telling us everyone given deportation orders went voluntarily. And now you're on here saying 20% of deportations are must be enforced.

You are a liar and a fraud.

I never said any such thing. Zero deportation orders are voluntary, which is why they’re called ‘orders’. And I’ve never disputed 20% of deportation orders have required enforced deportation. Put up, or shut up.

Who’s the liar again? ��

ghost of ireland past

Deportation orders should not be voluntary.

People should be taken into custody and held in custody until deported.

We need and are owed a system that works.

alastair

ghost of ireland past wrote: »

Deportation orders should not be voluntary.

People should be taken into custody and held in custody until deported.

We need and are owed a system that works.

Deportation orders are not voluntary. Detention is for those who have broken a law. Complying with a deportation order is not breaking any law.

Yurt2

ghost of ireland past wrote: »

Deportation orders should not be voluntary.

People should be taken into custody and held in custody until deported.

We need and are owed a system that works.

Apart from the never-ending legal aspect, deportations are quite expensive to enforce. To my knowledge, for each deportation, a GNIB officer has to accompany the deportee. So, let's say you're deporting a Pakistani national: for the security of the passengers and to make sure that the deportation is affected correctly, he will be accompanied by a member of AGS all the way to Lahore on a commercial flight (including transit through Heathrow / Paris / Frankfurt / wherever). The Garda will have to spend a night in a hotel before flying back to Ireland.

And, if the person throws a tantrum before take-off, the pilot has the right to - and usually will - kick both the officer and the deportee off the flight, so they have to reschedule the deportation.

The US avoids this by essentially having a contracted airline specifically for deportations.

jmayo

DelaneyIn wrote: »

92% of renters in the Dublin docklands are non national and rents there are 20% higher than the Dublin average.

Is this fair to Irish workers some of whom can't afford to live in Dublin and are having to consider emigration or moving out of the city? Is is an example of gentrification pushing up rents, as landlords bring in high paying tenants from abroad? Quite apart from the housing crisis.

...
Is one of the main causes of the housing crisis immigration? It seems so yet it’s never discussed when debating the issue.

No problem at all with foreigners here to work and filling often skilled vacancies in the job market.
Yes it increases the demand on housing but that is why supply of high rise housing should be earmarked for central parts of Dublin and indeed other cities.

RobertKK wrote: »

We need 100,000+++ workers extra in the construction sector, we don't have them here, we need more immigrants to come in and work in construction.

I don't get people who are anti-immigrant, the national party election ad the other night was a disgrace, saying we had too many... when the reality is we need more to fix the country, like building houses, working in health etc

Ehh your key definition there is WORKERS.

Taking in the beloved immigrants, of many in politics, the media and especially around here, who are so called kids from Calais, some dudes off a boat in the Med or someone who wandered in after been refused stay in UK is not going to solve any skilled labour shortage.

In fact filling a hotel in Galway, Mayo, Roscommon, Leitrim or Donegal with some of these people does fook all to help the shortage of skilled construction workers necessary in Dublin.

Oh and to head off the other old trite chestnut so beloved of the dogooder proponents of this, they will never fooking pay anyones pensions.
In fact they will just add to the pensions deficit in years to come.

After of course adding to the costs of welfare, educaiton and helthcare for their lifetimes.

alastair wrote: »

Not sure what your issue is here - the guy’s asylum claim was rejected and he’s been issued with a deportation order.

Ah sure that's grand then.
The box has been ticked and the old deportation order was granted.

It doesn't seem to bother you at all that he is still leeching off the state, still tying up resources, still costing in legal fees when the fooker should be back in Nigeria. :rolleyes:

Your crowd really are a pox on this country.

alastair

Yurt! wrote: »

Apart from the never-ending legal aspect, deportations are quite expensive to enforce. To my knowledge, for each deportation, a GNIB officer has to accompany the deportee. So, let's say you're deporting a Pakistani national: for the security of the passengers and to make sure that the deportation is affected correctly, he will be accompanied by a member of AGS all the way to Lahore on a commercial flight. The Garda will have to spend a night in a hotel before flying back to Ireland.


And, if the person throws a tantrum before take-off, the pilot has the right to, and usually will kick both the officer and the deportee off the flight, so they have to reschedule the deportation.


The US avoids this by essentially having a contracted airline specifically for deportations.

The legal process has clearly defined, and limited, steps.
The cost of enforced deportations is indeed high, which is a particularly good rationale for a system which only enforces deportation orders as a worst case scenario. As we do.

alastair

jmayo wrote: »

Ah sure that's grand then.
The box has been ticked and the old deportation order was granted.

It doesn't seem to bother you at all that he is still leeching off the state, still tying up resources, still costing in legal fees when the fooker should be back in Nigeria. :rolleyes:

Your crowd really are a pox on this country.

He’s in prison, awaiting the end of his legal case against deportation. That’s the course of the law. Unless you’re advocating for abandoning the law of the land, you don’t really have an alternative to offer.

Yurt2

alastair wrote: »

The legal process has clearly defined, and limited, steps.
The city of enforced deportations is indeed high, which is a particularly good rationale for a system which only enforces deportation orders as a worst case scenario. As we do.

Call me crazy, but I'd like exit-orders / deportation to be enforced to a far greater extent than they are now.

When it comes down it, there are probably hundreds, if not thousands of individuals waltzing around with exit-orders having been served on them. At the end of the day, the state has the right to have an immigration system, and it shouldn't be made a mockery of.

I wouldn't mind the Irish state pooling resources with smaller European states like Finland / Austria / Netherlands etc, who similarly likely lack resources to execute deportations efficiently, to have a specific contracted air service for deportations.

alastair

Yurt! wrote: »

Call me crazy, but I'd like exit-orders / deportation to be enforced to a far greater extent than they are now.

When it comes down it, there are probably hundreds, if not thousands of individuals waltzing around with exit-orders having been served on them. At the end of the day, the state has the right to have an immigration system, and it shouldn't be made a mockery of.

I wouldn't mind the Irish state pooling resources with smaller European states like Finland / Austria / Netherlands etc, who similarly likely lack resources to execute deportations efficiently, to have a specific contracted air service for deportations.

You want all that unnecessary expenditure? Where’s any evidence of anyone waltzing around?

Yurt2

alastair wrote: »

You want all that unnecessary expenditure? Where’s any evidence of anyone waltzing around?

I love it when people make doubting-Thomas posts like that and information is easily to hand on the first search result. Although, I wish you had the curiosity to search yourself as you seemed so confident that people self-deport. And what I have proposed is likely a lot cheaper than the method we currently use to effect deportations.


"It means during that period there were 7,340 people in respect of whom deportation orders were made but who were not deported. The Irish authorities have no way of knowing where any of those people – 80 per cent of the total number earmarked for deportation – are and if they left the Republic or remained here after learning they were to be deported."


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/migrants-can-simply-leave-ireland-or-disappear-1.4093757

alastair

Yurt! wrote: »

I love it when people make doubting thomas posts like that and information is to hand on the first search result. And what I have proposed is likely a lot cheaper than the method we currently use to effect deportations.



"It means during that period there were 7,340 people in respect of whom deportation orders were made but who were not deported. The Irish authorities have no way of knowing where any of those people – 80 per cent of the total number earmarked for deportation – are and if they left the Republic or remained here after learning they were to be deported."


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/migrants-can-simply-leave-ireland-or-disappear-1.4093757

They were deported - they were not subject to enforced deportation. That’s evidence of nothing but the split between deportation orders and enforced deportations. Again - where’s the evidence of any of them remaining in the country?

The ‘pooling’ of enforced deportations would likely cost more than the current enforced deportation overhead. Leasing planes, shunting deportees across various locations in Europe? Sounds like a lot of money.

dxhound2005

Yurt! wrote: »

When it comes down it, there are probably hundreds, if not thousands of individuals waltzing around with exit-orders having been served on them.

Maybe hundred of thousands. If you haven't got actual figures, don't make them up.

Yurt2

alastair wrote: »

They were deported - they were not subject to enforced deportation. That’s evidence of nothing but the split between deportation orders and enforced deportations. Again - where’s the evidence of any of them remaining in the country?

Ah here, you reckon they all hopped on a flight back home? Re-read the article, the state has no idea where these people are, 80% of people that were served with orders to leave the country. And you have no concerns whatsoever about the integrity of our immigration system?

Yurt2

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Maybe hundred of thousands. If you haven't got actual figures, don't make them up.

These are the figures provided by the competent authority in Ireland. Over 80% of those served with exit orders, which is a figure in the thousands, the state doesn't have a clue if they're in the country or not.

If you think they all went home, I've a bridge in Brooklyn I can sell you.

alastair

Yurt! wrote: »

Ah here, you reckon they all hopped on a flight back home? Re-read the article, the state has no idea where these people are, 80% of people that were served with orders to leave the country. And you have no concerns whatsoever about the integrity of our immigration system?

The State doesn’t track them when they go, no. But it certainly follows up on those who don’t leave, and enforces those deportations (To the degree of one in five deportations). The honest answer is, of course, that there’s no evidence of anyone remaining on in the country post the deportation process.

You’ve no bridge to sell, just as you’ve nothing to suggest there’s anyone left in the country after the process has come to an end.

Yurt2

alastair wrote: »

The State doesn’t track them when they go, no. But it certainly follows up on those who don’t leave, and enforce those deportations. The honest answer is, of course, that there’s no evidence of anyone remaining on in the country post the deportation process.

Read the article again, no it doesn't. 80% of the over 9k figure that were served with deportation orders weren't enforced. The state doesn't know where these people are. If you think the 80% all decided to pack up and go home, well, that's a nice thought you're having.

alastair

Yurt! wrote: »

Read the article again, no it doesn't. 80% of the over 9k figure that were served with deportation orders weren't enforced. The state doesn't know where these people are. If you think the 80% all decided to pack up and go home, well, that's a nice thought you're having.

I’ve read the article before. The State doesn’t need to know where they are - just that they are no longer here - if they are here they are deported through enforcement. How exactly do you think they arrive at a need for enforced deportation?

Yurt2

alastair wrote: »

I’ve read the article before. The State doesn’t need to know where they are - just that they are no longer here - if they are here they are deported through enforcement. How exactly do you think they arrive at a need for enforced deportation?

Are you actually being serious? How does the state know they've left the state, we don't have exit checks in this country.


Read it again. The state doesn't know where 80% of the people who were served with deportation orders are. They could be in Lagos or Leitrim, they don't have a clue.


https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2019-07-09/280/


'It is the case that in this jurisdiction as in others, significant numbers of people who are the subject of deportation orders leave voluntarily following receipt of the order. As exit checks from the State are not in use, it is not possible to indicate with any degree of precision the numbers who may be in this category' - Charlie Flanagan, Minister for Justice, 2019

alastair

Yurt! wrote: »

Are you actually being serious? How does the state know they've left the state, we don't have exit checks in this country.


Read it again. The state doesn't know where 80% of the people who were served with deportation orders are. They could be in Lagos or Leitrim, they don't have a clue.


https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2019-07-09/280/


'It is the case that in this jurisdiction as in others, significant numbers of people who are the subject of deportation orders leave voluntarily following receipt of the order. As exit checks from the State are not in use, it is not possible to indicate with any degree of precision the numbers who may be in this category' - Charlie Flanagan, Minister for Justice, 2019

It could well be Lagos - but Leitrim - not so much. Again - how exactly do you think enforced deportations are arrived at? Let’s tease this out.

Yurt2

alastair wrote: »

It could well be Lagos - but Leitrim - not so much. Again - how exactly do you think enforced deportations are arrived at? Let’s tease this out.

Nice and slowly for the remedial students down the back...


1,857 orders were enforced. That is to say a person was physically taken to the airport accompanied by AGS and escorted out of the state.


7,340 orders were not enforced (80%), and the State doesn't know where they are. If you don't want to take my word for it, take the the word of the Irish Times or the MINISTER FOR JUSTICE


- 'The Irish authorities have no way of knowing where any of those people – 80 per cent of the total number earmarked for deportation – are and if they left the Republic or remained here after learning they were to be deported.' - IT



'It is the case that in this jurisdiction as in others, significant numbers of people who are the subject of deportation orders leave voluntarily following receipt of the order. As exit checks from the State are not in use, it is not possible to indicate with any degree of precision the numbers who may be in this category' - Minister for Justice

alastair

Yurt! wrote: »

Nice and slowly for the remedial students down the back...


1,857 orders were enforced. That is to say a person was physically taken to the airport accompanied by AGS and escorted out of the state.


7,340 orders were not enforced (80%), and the State doesn't know where they are. If you don't want to take my word for it, take the the word of the Irish Times or the MINISTER FOR JUSTICE


- 'The Irish authorities have no way of knowing where any of those people – 80 per cent of the total number earmarked for deportation – are and if they left the Republic or remained here after learning they were to be deported.' - IT



'It is the case that in this jurisdiction as in others, significant numbers of people who are the subject of deportation orders leave voluntarily following receipt of the order. As exit checks from the State are not in use, it is not possible to indicate with any degree of precision the numbers who may be in this category' - Minister for Justice

Again - how exactly do you think enforced deportations are arrived at? Let’s tease this out.

What’s the critical difference between a deportation order, and an enforced deportation order?

Yurt2

Apologies for the crap right-wing title on the video, but this is a slam dunk. The state doesn't know how many leave of their own accord, if at all (59 sec).


Director General of INIS.

weldoninhio

alastair wrote: »

The only mechanism for leave to remain, post deportation orders, is through the Minister’s office. Is he the bleeding heart brigade?

Tanaghan?? I'd say he's a bleeding heart alright, he wanted to commemorate them memory of the Auxies and Tans. Doesn't get more bleeding heart than commemorating those who oppressed/murdered your ancestors. :rolleyes:

Yurt2

alastair wrote: »

Again - how exactly do you think enforced deportations are arrived at? Let’s tease this out.

What’s the critical difference between a deportation order, and an enforced deportation order?

See video. You're wrong on this one I'm afraid to tell you.

alastair

Yurt! wrote: »

Apologies for the crap right-wing title on the video, but this is a slam dunk. The state doesn't know how many leave of their own accord, if at all (59 sec).


Director General of INIS.

It’s no slam dunk whatsoever. Now - care to answer the relevant question?

How exactly do you think enforced deportations are arrived at? Let’s tease this out.

What’s the critical difference between a deportation order, and an enforced deportation order?

Yurt2

alastair wrote: »

It’s no slam dunk whatsoever. Now - care to answer the relevant question?

How exactly do you think enforced deportations are arrived at? Let’s tease this out.

What’s the critical difference between a deportation order, and an enforced deportation order?

You tell me.

It's obvious to everyone reading this with the facts I've presented that many remain in the state despite deportation orders being served against them.

You have it from the Irish Times, you have it from the Minister for Justice, you have it from the DG of the Immigration Authority. I can't help you any more.

alastair

Yurt! wrote: »

You tell me.



It's obvious to everyone reading this with the facts I've presented that many remain in the state despite deportation orders being served against them.


You have it from the Irish Times, you have it from the Minister for Justice, you have it from the DG of the Immigration Authority. I can't help you any more.

You’re the one claiming that there are people ‘waltzing around’. That suggests some specific insights, so it shouldn’t be too difficult for you to answer the question:

How exactly do you think enforced deportations are arrived at?

What’s the critical difference between a deportation order, and an enforced deportation order?

Yurt2

alastair wrote: »

You’re the one claiming that there are people ‘waltzing around’. That suggests some specific insights, so it shouldn’t be too difficult for you to answer the question:

How exactly do you think enforced deportations are arrived at?

What’s the critical difference between a deportation order, and an enforced deportation order?

Why don't you tell us all if it's so important to your point? I'm not actually all that interested by the way.