Smart Intruder Alarms

Duke of Url

degsie wrote: »

Professional alarm installers are very defensive about their corner of the home security market and woe betide those diy enthusiasts who dare encroach!

I’m going to need an alarm fitter to install the Ajax outdoor siren as I would like that wired and I’m not one for heights.

Do you think it will be an issue getting someone to do it?

Superfoods

degsie wrote: »

Professional alarm installers are very defensive about their corner of the home security market and woe betide those diy enthusiasts who dare encroach!

Its a nice little money maker. Smart alarms are the competition that will shut down that revenue stream. I would expect they will fight tooth and nail to keep them out

mcgovern

Superfoods wrote: »

Im confused by the hubs, which is best to go for? thanks

If you ever plan on having MotionCam detectors then you need the Hub 2.
This page gives a decent comparison though it doesn't highlight the above enough, which is really the main difference in my eyes.

bifl

I am pre-wired in the house for PIRs but not to the windows. I've seen said on boards before that if you are pre-wired you are better than going wired than with wireless.

Why is this ? Is just about keeping all the sensors running off the main is handier ?
Which leads be on to the next question how often do you have to replace the battereis on the Ajax? Does it depend on sensor type too maybe?

Duke of Url

bifl wrote: »

I am pre-wired in the house for PIRs but not to the windows. I've seen said on boards before that if you are pre-wired you are better than going wired than with wireless.

Why is this ? Is just about keeping all the sensors running off the main is handier ?
Which leads be on to the next question how often do you have to replace the battereis on the Ajax? Does it depend on sensor type too maybe?

Looks like every 5 years to change the Batteries.

Clareman

Changing the batteries will depend on the amount of use the sensors get and the types of batteries you are using. The Nest Protection for example come with Energizer Ultimate Lithium and they'll last 5 years but I'd say if you got cheapey pound shop batteries they'll last a fraction of the time. Personally I replace batteries in devices with rechargeable ones as they go and I don't mind how often they expire.

2011

degsie wrote: »

Professional alarm installers are very defensive about their corner of the home security market and woe betide those diy enthusiasts who dare encroach!

They are as it is their bread and butter. Naturally these easy to install alarms and the advent of IoT is perceived as a serious threat. Much of their revenue in the past came from a monthly kick back from extortionate monitoring fees. Now many are opting for self monitoring which In general pays them nothing.

Superfoods wrote: »

Smart alarms are the competition that will shut down that revenue stream. I would expect they will fight tooth and nail to keep them out

What can they do? That ship has sailed. A little know fact: From a legal perspective you are permitted to install an intruder alarm in your own home.

2011

bifl wrote: »

I am pre-wired in the house for PIRs but not to the windows. I've seen said on boards before that if you are pre-wired you are better than going wired than with wireless.

Mainly cost. Also wired sensors are far smaller and as others have said do not require individual batteries.

However wireless sensors are fully addressable where are multiple wired sensors can be on a single zone. However point ID wired sensors are available for some systems which are individually addressable.

bk

2011 wrote: »

Mainly cost. Also wired sensors are far smaller and as others have said do not require individual batteries.

You should see how ridiculously small the Xiaomi wireless PIR is. It is tiny! It is about 1/10th the size of my HKC wired PIR. And silly cheap too. Not strictly a "security sensor" but shows what is possible.

I'm not sure if they are actually available in any security products yet, but the latest zigbee/z-wave chipset allows PIR's/contact sensors to run for 10 years on a coin sized battery! Pretty awesome.

I'd say the not needing to replace batteries and size advantage of wired sensors are quickly being lost.

The difference I'd focus on is potential better reliability and not being able to be jammed. Wireless sensors can potentially be jammed by a thief. A system with wireless sensors can only be max of Grade 2 on the security standard, while wired systems can potentially be the higher Grade 3 or 4.

Though just because a system is wired, doesn't mean it is Grade 3/4, they are other requirements like multiple comms paths, fast polling, anti-masking, etc.

Having said all that, it is possible for modern wireless systems to detect such jamming and to trigger the alarm when triggered. Even my cheapy Yale system does that.

To be honest, wireless is probably fine for a typical home setup. Grade 3/4 is what you'd get in a place like a Jewellers or Bank.

I'm generally in favour of using wires where possible, E.g. lots of Ethernet. But it does feel like the wireless sensors have gotten good enough that it probably isn't worth the effort unless you are already wired.

bk

Yes, I feel bad for installers, it is going to be very tough for them.

It probably was a bad sign when the first wireless sensors came along, that took a lot of the difficulty and time out of installing an alarm, but the other shoe definitely dropped when companies started making alarm systems specifically for consumers to install themselves.

I do find it weird when I hear them say things like IoT is rubbish. I think if some of them were to embrace it, they could perhaps find decent business there. Not everyone has the skills and geeky interest that those of us on this forum have.

I think of people like my sisters and elderly parents. They won't ever install even a consumer oriented system themselves. I could see there being a market for doing complete install packages of Home security + IoT for people like them. Install a modern alarm system + IP cams + health monitoring/alerting for elderly + IoT devices for them and help manage those for them. Smartzone look to be doing that and I think it is a smart direction to go.

Maybe not enough market there for that, I'm not sure.

Clareman

bk wrote: »

Yes, I feel bad for installers, it is going to be very tough for them.

It probably was a bad sign when the first wireless sensors came along, that took a lot of the difficulty and time out of installing an alarm, but the other shoe definitely dropped when companies started making alarm systems specifically for consumers to install themselves.

I do find it weird when I hear them say things like IoT is rubbish. I think if some of them were to embrace it, they could perhaps find decent business there. Not everyone has the skills and geeky interest that those of us on this forum have.

I think of people like my sisters and elderly parents. They won't ever install even a consumer oriented system themselves. I could see there being a market for doing complete install packages of Home security + IoT for people like them. Install a modern alarm system + IP cams + health monitoring/alerting for elderly + IoT devices for them and help manage those for them. Smartzone look to be doing that and I think it is a smart direction to go.

Maybe not enough market there for that, I'm not sure.

Probably be more suited for an off-topic thread but I think the big fear people have for "Smart" tech is that there isn't a full trust of the internet, almost the first thing people will say if they hear you are relying on a smart security system is "what about if the internet is out", to me it's more likely that the electricity will go rather than the internet and anyway there is normally a local backup anyway.

I don't think consumer alarms will take off for the masses for a while as there is still a large professional alarm lobby group that will push their wares and will ensure that insurance companies won't factor in self-installed alarm systems for discounts and stuff.

Personally, the thought of ripping up the house to installed wired detectors around the place would really annoy me and I wouldn't trust a wireless piece of kit that I hadn't researched myself so I was happy with the Yale system.

mcgovern

bk wrote: »

You should see how ridiculously small the Xiaomi wireless PIR is. It is tiny! It is about 1/10th the size of my HKC wired PIR. And silly cheap too. Not strictly a "security sensor" but shows what is possible.
.

Forgive my arm, but Ajax MotionProtect and Xiaomi PIR side by side.

2011

bk wrote: »

I'd say the not needing to replace batteries and size advantage of wired sensors are quickly being lost.

Yes, I’m told to expect 10 years from mine.

The difference I'd focus on is potential better reliability and not being able to be jammed. Wireless sensors can potentially be jammed by a thief.

Yes they could be jammed, but to what end? Jamming the signal on a professional alarm (when armed) will simply generate an alarm.
The alarm condition can then be seen on the app. So ultimately it is of no benefit to the intruder as the attempt to circumvent the alarm has resulted in setting it off. Job done!

In reality intruders are not that technical, they tend to use far more crude (yet often effective) methods to bypass security systems. I can tell you one way by PM but would rather not post it for obvious reasons.

A system with wireless sensors can only be max of Grade 2 on the security standard, while wired systems can potentially be the higher Grade 3 or 4.

I am assured by a professional that grade 3 is possible but only with a reduced polling time. Theoretically grade 4 also with a further reduced time but discharge systems are not commonly available here.

Though just because a system is wired, doesn't mean it is Grade 3/4, they are other requirements like multiple comms paths, fast polling, anti-masking, etc.

Absolutely.

I'm generally in favour of using wires where possible, E.g. lots of Ethernet. But it does feel like the wireless sensors have gotten good enough that it probably isn't worth the effort unless you are already wired.

Yes. The in between position is to use a quick bridge. This turns a standard wired system into a wireless by wiring sensors to one part of the bridge and wiring the panel into the other. Both ends connect wirelessly.

2011

Clareman wrote: »

I don't think consumer alarms will take off for the masses for a while as there is still a large professional alarm lobby group that will push their wares and will ensure that insurance companies won't factor in self-installed alarm systems for discounts and stuff.

The reality is:
1) Many of the insurance companies I have used will accept any alarm installed by anyone. They will also provide me with a discount on that basis.

2) Some insurance companies will provide a discount of an alarm that is installed to EN50131 by a PSA registered installer.

Regardless of whether your insurance company aligns with 1 or 2 above I would recommend that you don’t avail of the discount as there are conditions attached to this in the small print that could make your policy null & void in the event of a claim. One condition I have seen is that the alarm was armed at the time. Yes, they can and will check the log.

Another I saw (for 2 above) was that the alarm EN50131 certification had to be valid as it only last one year and the needs to be renewed by a PSA registered installer (essentials a service). The service is no harm but costs more than the discount.

degsie

2011 wrote: »

Another I saw (for 2 above) was that the alarm EN50131 certification had to be valid as it only last one year and the needs to be renewed by a PSA registered installer (essentials a service). The service is no harm but costs more than the discount.

This is the kicker, do you get your gas or electrical installation checked every year in case of an insurance claim? Of course not, this certification stuff is a swizz.

2011

degsie wrote: »

This is the kicker, do you get your gas or electrical installation checked every year in case of an insurance claim? Of course not, this certification stuff is a swizz.

Yes. So do what I do, don’t avail of the “discount”. It is not financially viable as it costs more than it saves never mind the fact that the risk of making your policy null and void is very high for a raft of other reasons. Simply not worth it.

For me the “saving” was €40ish at a cost of over €200

Clareman

2011 wrote: »

Yes. So do what I do, don’t avail of the “discount”. It is not financially viable as it costs more than it saves never mind the fact that the risk of making your policy null and void is very high for a raft of other reasons. Simply not worth it.

For me the “saving” was €40ish at a cost of over €200

A friend of mine was renewing his insurance a few years back, went through all the usual questions including "have you or anyone named on the policy been involved in an accident in the past 5 years", he said no. Turned out that his wife had been in a fender bender and never told him, it has put him on the "refused insurance" list for years now. So my motto is don't try to be smart when it comes to insurance, the euro you save on the premium will cost you thousands when you need it.

2011

Clareman wrote: »

A friend of mine was renewing his insurance a few years back, went through all the usual questions including "have you or anyone named on the policy been involved in an accident in the past 5 years", he said no. Turned out that his wife had been in a fender bender and never told him, it has put him on the "refused insurance" list for years now. So my motto is don't try to be smart when it comes to insurance, the euro you save on the premium will cost you thousands when you need it.

I couldn’t agree more.
I specifically tell my insurance company in writing that I have decided not to avail of the of alarm discount. That way I can’t get caught out for any lack of certification, service or if I forget to arm it. They will use everything at their disposal to avoid paying out.

Clareman

2011 wrote: »

I couldn’t agree more.
I specifically tell my insurance company in writing that I have decided not to avail of the of alarm discount. That way I can’t get caught out for any lack of certification, service or if I forget to arm it.

My brother in law a few years ago was telling me about his new "parking sensors" that he got installed, at great humour he showed us he new hitch that he had fitted, he couldn't understand why he should tell his insurance company that he got a hitch.

I don't do the writing thing though, I just renew over the phone and inform them that as they are recording the call that so am I, I probably should actually record the call though.

Clareman

Clareman wrote: »

A friend of mine was renewing his insurance a few years back, went through all the usual questions including "have you or anyone named on the policy been involved in an accident in the past 5 years", he said no. Turned out that his wife had been in a fender bender and never told him, it has put him on the "refused insurance" list for years now. So my motto is don't try to be smart when it comes to insurance, the euro you save on the premium will cost you thousands when you need it.

Oh yeah, I don't know if it's important or not, but they weren't married when the accident happened, they were married a couple of years and it was an old claim.

My thought process is, if you are trying to save money on insurance don't bother it'll cost you in the long run, as smart as you think you are, the insurance company is smarter.

bk

On insurance, definitely don't lie, but don't let them rip you off either. Shop around.

I remember that I use to have my alarm on my home insurance and realised that was a mistake and called them to take it off, the call went something like this:

bk: I'd like to take my alarm off my home insurance.

insurance lady: No problem, but that means we will need to increase the cost of your insurance.

bk: Ah fine, don't do anything yet so, I'll shop around so to see if I can get a better deal elsewhere.

insurance lady: Ah, hold on a moment, let me speak to a supervisor....

insurance lady: Since we see that you are such a good customer, we won't increase the cost for not having an alarm and we will actually give you 5% off what you were originally paying (I can't remember exactly how much it was, something like 5 to 10%), if you stay with us.

LOL

Every year, my renewal quote is more expensive then the previous. I always call them back and say something like, I'm not happy with the increase, I might shop around, if you can give me last years amount again, I won't bother. 95% of the time they agree.

Though I do actually move every few years. Same with broadband, mobile, electic, gas. Pretty easy money.

bk

Clareman wrote: »

Probably be more suited for an off-topic thread but I think the big fear people have for "Smart" tech is that there isn't a full trust of the internet, almost the first thing people will say if they hear you are relying on a smart security system is "what about if the internet is out", to me it's more likely that the electricity will go rather than the internet and anyway there is normally a local backup anyway.

Well Phonewatch alarms are basically a rebranded Honeywell Smart Alarms (managed in the cloud, server side, etc.) and they are very popular from what I've seen, so I don't think there is that much resistance to them. Obviously independent installers understandably don't like that company, but I don't think the public cares much.

The thing about "smart alarms" is, I'm not aware of any of them that don't continue to work when your internet is down. They all will still go off (lights and bells) if one of the sensors are triggered, just like any other alarm.

Sure, you might not get a notification and can't remotely control it, but they still work as a basic alarm.

And the above is even true of traditional, pro install alarms with monitoring. It wasn't uncommon for thieves to cut the phone line before breaking in, since older alarms use to send the notification by text or voice dialler over the phone line. The alarm would still go off, but the monitoring station or user wouldn't get a notification. So if you were out, you wouldn't know something was happening.

This is becoming less of an issue with both pro alarms and "smart" DIY alarms coming with dual or mote path comms. Someone cuts your line and the alarm system can still send the notification out over mobile connection.

Jamming of GSM is possible, but jamming across multiple frequencies while possible is heading into mission impossible level stuff and unlikely in a burglary of a standard home.

But this is also where fast server side polling comes into play. Even if someone cuts your phone line and jams all the GSM frequencies. The server after a set time will try and reach your alarm, realise it isn't contactable and it will notify you of that. You aren't certain there is a break in, but something odd is definitely up.

A lot of the newer smart alarm systems like the Ajax system have comms and polling levels equal to the best, Grade 4 alarms systems used in banks etc. Which is pretty impressive IMO. Though note, that it can only be certified to Grade 2 due to using wireless sensors.

2011

bk wrote: »

It wasn't uncommon for thieves to cut the phone line before breaking in, since older alarms use to send the notification by text or voice dialler over the phone line. The alarm would still go off, but the monitoring station or user wouldn't get a notification.

Not quite!
This is why polling was invented. If the alarm fails to poll the monitoring station will know. The polling rate can be adjusted to suit the customer’s budget. Remember most alarms connected to a monitoring station will have multiple communications paths, the same applies to many self monitored systems. Having said that my personal view is that central monitoring stations offers little or no benefit to the average domestic end user over self monitoring.

Jamming of GSM is possible, but jamming across multiple frequencies while possible is heading into mission impossible level stuff and unlikely in a burglary of a standard home.

...and there are other independent communications paths available.

Though note, that it can only be certified to Grade 2 due to using wireless sensors.

Perhaps this is the case for Ajax but as already stated wireless alarms can be grade 3 or 4.

bk

2011 wrote: »

Yes they could be jammed, but to what end? Jamming the signal on a professional alarm (when armed) will simply generate an alarm.
The alarm condition can then be seen on the app. So ultimately it is of no benefit to the intruder as the attempt to circumvent the alarm has resulted in setting it off. Job done!

Well if you have a system with just 8 hour polling, then a person could be into a home/business and clean the whole place out before the the monitoring system would notice that something was up.

The standard monitoring plan for the most popular system in Ireland is 8 hours polling, so it is still a real danger.

However with systems like Ajax having 3 minutes or less polling (as required by Grade 4 systems), then I agree that it is far less of an issue.

2011 wrote: »

In reality intruders are not that technical, they tend to use far more crude (yet often effective) methods to bypass security systems. I can tell you one way by PM but would rather not post it for obvious reasons.

Absolutely, most attacks are relatively opportunistic and relatively quick and brute force.

Though some gangs can be more sophisticated and organised. Think ATM skimming or theft of Tesla's here in Ireland using laptops and replay attacks.

But I agree, I'm very happy to see systems come with fast polling and I wouldn't worry too much about wireless versus wired sensors in a home.

BTW Please do PM me the crude attack, always interested to hear new ones, thanks.

2011 wrote: »

I am assured by a professional that grade 3 is possible but only with a reduced polling time. Theoretically grade 4 also with a further reduced time but discharge systems are not commonly available here.

You can certainly get grade 3/4 sensors, panels, comms, etc. But my understanding is that if you use any grade 2 sensors in your system, then for certification purposes (insurance) then the entire system would be certified as Grade 2, even if all but one sensor were Grade 3/4. And wireless sensors can only ever be max grade 2.

Not that any of this really matters IMO, not for home systems. Jewellers/banks/etc. is different as they have to satisfy requirements for commercial insurance.

But I'm working off the assumption that on this forum, most of us are talking about home installs.

2011

bk wrote: »

The standard monitoring plan for the most popular system in Ireland is 8 hours polling, so it is still a real danger.[

A few important facts:
1) All comms paths would have to be defeated. So although not impossible it would take more than cutting a phone line to achieve this is the majority of cases.
2) The cheapest package offers the unacceptably long polling time you have listed. Far quicker are available.
3) Systems such as Siemens offer far faster polling times (from memory about the same as Ajax) free of charge.

However with systems like Ajax having 3 minutes or less polling (as required by Grade 4 systems), then I agree that it is far less of an issue

Exactly.

Absolutely, most attacks are relatively opportunistic and relatively quick and brute force.

Indeed and I will hazard a guess that just like me you have never seen a sophisticated attack on an intruder alarm?

You can certainly get grade 3/4 sensors, panels, comms, etc. But my understanding is that if you use any grade 2 sensors in your system, then for certification purposes (insurance) then the entire system would be certified as Grade 2, even if all but one sensor were Grade 3/4. And wireless sensors can only ever be max grade 2.

Insurance and certification are 2 different things.

If a grade 4 panel uses grade 2 kit it can not be certified beyond grade 2. However there is nothing stated to suggest that wireless sensors restrict an alarm to grade 2.

bk

2011 wrote: »

Not quite!
This is why polling was invented. If the alarm fails to poll the monitoring station will know. The polling rate can be adjusted to suit the customer’s budget. Remember most alarms connected to a monitoring station will have multiple communications paths, the same applies to many self monitored systems. Having said that my personal view is that central monitoring stations offers little or no benefit to the average domestic end user over self monitoring.

I think crossed posts here

Yes, but what level of polling matters.

Many old pro alarms were installed with simple monitoring by text or voice dialler over a landline. These systems had zero polling.

Your statement "most alarms connected to a monitoring station will have multiple communications paths" it certainly not true. Both my sisters and my parents alarms are still voice dialler to the monitor center, no other paths or polling at all!

This was the standard install for pro alarms for many years and tens of thousands of rubbish setups still exist around the country unfortunately.

Even if they were to upgrade to a new panel and dual path monitoring. The standard remote monitoring plan from HKC has polling of only every 8 hours. Pretty useless IMO, your house would be emptied in that time.

2011 wrote: »

...and there are other independent communications paths available.

Yep, though one way or the other still RF, anything wireless can be jammed. Though practically would be tough to jam a point to point microwave link or sat up link.

That is why fast polling is so important, short of hacking the server side, almost impossible to defeat. I'd have to say a frequency hopping world SIM is going to be tough to jam reliably.

2011 wrote: »

Perhaps this is the case for Ajax but as already stated wireless alarms can be grade 3 or 4.

No, I'm 100% certain that wireless sensors can't be grade 3/4 I'll look that up for you and supply you a reference.

bk

Well according to Ajax:
https://ajax.systems/blog/what-is-a-security-grade/

Grade 3 can only be assigned to wired security systems. So manufacturers of modern wireless security systems can be awarded either Grade 1 or Grade 2.

I've seen this quoted in other articles before about wireless systems. I can't find any evidence on the internet of wireless Grade 3 sensors existing.

I could be wrong, I don't have the EN spec where I am at the moment, so I can't point to that, which would be ideal, rather then an article. I'll keep looking.

bk

Another Alarm system manufacturer claiming the same here:
https://eldesalarms.com/articles/en-50131-grades-in-intruder-alarm-systems/

This is why all ELDES wireless intruder alarm systems are EN 50131 Grade 2 certified.

EN 50131 Grade 2 is the maximum grading that any wireless intruder alarm can achieve.

bk

BTW I'm sure 2011 knows, but for anyone else reading.

That even if you buy a Grade 2/3 system, it can only be certified as such (for insurance) if a professional installer installs it and for a Grade 2 system they either do twice a year maintenance or once a year maintenance + one remote check of the system per year.

So if you DIY a Grade 2 system, it might work very well, but it wouldn't be considered as such unless you getting a professional installer to look after it.

Again I don't think most of this really matters for home users, as long as you aren't including it on your insurance. This EN spec is pretty horribly out of date for modern alarm systems, being written almost 20 years ago. A lot of things have changed in electronics and networking since then IMO.

2011

bk wrote: »

Well according to Ajax:
https://ajax.systems/blog/what-is-a-security-grade/

Don’t believe everything you read.
Ajax make a wireless grade 3 PIR, see link:

https://ajax.systems/products/motionprotect-outdoor/

Either way if you want to know what a standard actually says you should not rely on manufacturer’s literature. You should read the standard itself.