When will men get liberated from gender roles?

El_Duderino 09

Valentino Old-fashioned Spacecraft wrote: »

Feminism and mens rights are by definition the same thing.

But Mens Rights badly needs rebranding.

If rebranding would help then I'm fine with that. Ultimately we need men who care about mens issues, to focus on men's issues.

Evidence on boards is that feminists the like of KiKi, Candie, Blue Wolf and most normal people, will support men campaigning FOR men's issues. And that's the difference between campaigning FOR men's issues and whinging about feminism.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Naggin Merchant wrote: »

No doubt in your Department of Woke HR would be straight onto me.

No can you explain why I would need to be a 'hard man' just to ask a question?

The hard man bit refers to saying online all the stuff you would do when you’d actually do none of it. Shoulda woulda coulda.

KiKi III

Rathbool wrote: »

It just so happens that that also benefits women, men can then do more chores around the house. It's funny that you don't hear feminists campaigning for equal judicial treatment.

I haven’t seen anyone campaigning on equality in the family courts since the early to mid 00s. I don’t have kids so it’s not something that’s massively on my radar. Maybe it’s less of a problem these days due to equality legislation? Most couples I know who separate these days do shared custody.

El_Duderino 09

Naggin Merchant wrote: »

Like I said. A trade union for women.

Yeah, a lobby group. That's how things happen. People lobby for things and,
usually depending on the size and effectiveness of the lobby, things either change or they don't. Men need a lobby group to lobby for their issues.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Naggin Merchant wrote: »

Except I don't need to be a hard man to ask Joe why he wore a dress to work. It's just a question.

I guess my views are conflicting with your programming

Sure, sure.

One eyed Jack

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

If rebranding would help then I'm fine with that. Ultimately we need men who care about mens issues, to focus on men's issues.

Evidence on boards is that feminists the like of KiKi, Candie, Blue Wolf and most normal people, will support men campaigning FOR men's issues. And that's the difference between campaigning FOR men's issues and whinging about feminism.

You must surely be able to understand that feminist policies are an issue for men who disagree with them. I’m not surprised in the least that some people advocate feminism as a means to address men’s issues, because they’re not listening to men who don’t agree with their approach. They deign such disagreement as indicative of toxic masculinity, or as you put it - men whinging about feminism. I personally don’t care for the politics of feminism or anti-feminism or men’s/women’s rights either way tbh. I certainly wouldn’t refer to myself as “egalitarian” either.

If I don’t agree with an approach I’ll express that disagreement, and if I feel someone isn’t listening when I’m trying to explain an issue, then that’s an indication they’re more interested in virtue signalling to their peers than they are in actually addressing issues which people are affected by.

El_Duderino 09

Rathbool wrote: »

It just so happens that that also benefits women, men can then do more chores around the house. It's funny that you don't hear feminists campaigning for equal judicial treatment.

Yeah. Feminism is actively campaigning for issues that mostly impact women. Men don't have a similar movement to actively lobby for issues like father's rights.

I think it would've great to support a men's movement to advocate for men's issues. Unfortunately lots of men only want to focus on feminism which is useless to father's rights, men's mental health and suicide rates etc. Pity.

silverharp

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yeah, a lobby group. That's how things happen. People lobby for things and,
usually depending on the size and effectiveness of the lobby, things either change or they don't. Men need a lobby group to lobby for their issues.

feminists don't represent all women , they represent other feminists. If feminists got their way in everything they wanted lots of wives and mothers for example would have their interests damaged.

One eyed Jack

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yeah. Feminism is actively campaigning for issues that mostly impact women. Men don't have a similar movement to actively lobby for issues like father's rights.

I think it would've great to support a men's movement to advocate for men's issues. Unfortunately lots of men only want to focus on feminism which is useless to father's rights, men's mental health and suicide rates etc. Pity.

Fathers rights aren’t an issue that affects men though. That’s a common misunderstanding of family law in which parents have equal rights regardless of their sex. It was even that way before the marriage equality referendum, as was demonstrated in the case where the biological father was granted access to their child in spite of the objections of the child’s two mothers -


Sperm donor wins access to son

As I pointed out earlier - each case is decided on its individual merits with the welfare and the best interests of the child being of paramount consideration, not the rights of the parents.

El_Duderino 09

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You must surely be able to understand that feminist policies are an issue for men who disagree with them. I’m not surprised in the least that some people advocate feminism as a means to address men’s issues, because they’re not listening to men who don’t agree with their approach. They deign such disagreement as indicative of toxic masculinity, or as you put it - men whinging about feminism. I personally don’t care for the politics of feminism or anti-feminism or men’s/women’s rights either way tbh. I certainly wouldn’t refer to myself as “egalitarian” either.

If I don’t agree with an approach I’ll express that disagreement, and if I feel someone isn’t listening when I’m trying to explain an issue, then that’s an indication they’re more interested in virtue signalling to their peers than they are in actually addressing issues which people are affected by.

Totally beside the point of addressing men's issues. That will happen if men campaign to promote men's issues and find solutions, or it won't happen. It definitely won't happen because loads of blokes whinge about feminism.

Think about the idea of it. The obvious way to solve a problem in society (the rate of men dying by suicide for exam) is to promote it, raise public awareness of it as a problem and the impact it has, make it real for people and get the public on side so the public supports it and wants solutions and so the politicians are inclined to spend public money to address it. Simple and direct.

This notion that focusing on feminism is going to actually address the Completely separate issues affecting men, is genuinely fascinating. The idea that such an oblique approach an issue will have much impact, is baffling.

In reality, some people just like the sport of gender wars. Other people would like to help solve the issues. There's little overlap.

El_Duderino 09

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Fathers rights aren’t an issue that affects men though. That’s a common misunderstanding of family law in which parents have equal rights regardless of their sex. It was even that way before the marriage equality referendum, as was demonstrated in the case where the biological father was granted access to their child in spite of the objections of the child’s two mothers -


Sperm donor wins access to son

As I pointed out earlier - each case is decided on its individual merits with the welfare and the best interests of the child being of paramount consideration, not the rights of the parents.

LOL. So father's rights isn't a problem. I'd say that men will take issue with that bit in reality, myself and KiKi are tho only ones to have expressed an interest father's rights in this thread. And you're saying its not a problem.

If there were megs rights advocates in this thread, they'd object. But instead of men's rights activists, this thread is full of bloke's who enjoy whingeing about feminism. Pity

One eyed Jack

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Totally beside the point of addressing men's issues. That will happen if men campaign to promote men's issues and find solutions, or it won't happen. It definitely won't happen because loads of blokes whinge about feminism.

Think about the idea of it. The obvious way to solve a problem in society (the rate of men dying by suicide for exam) is to promote it, raise public awareness of it as a problem and the impact it has, make it real for people and get the public on side so the public supports it and wants solutions and so the politicians are inclined to spend public money to address it. Simple and direct.

This notion that focusing on feminism is going to actually address the Completely separate issues affecting men, is genuinely fascinating. The idea that such an oblique approach an issue will have much impact, is baffling.

In reality, some people just like the sport of gender wars. Other people would like to help solve the issues. There's little overlap.

In reality, most people don’t care one way or the other about issues that don’t affect them. Then there are some people who identify issues as a means to promote their ideology - creating a problem to which their ideology is the solution. Then there are people who disagree with that approach. Then there are people who promote a different approach, then there are some people for whom someone else’s approach is itself an issue.

That’s what’s behind the objection to feminist approaches to social issues. What you refer to as whinging about feminism is people expressing a difference of opinion whether it’s that they don’t agree that feminism is the best way to approach a social issue, or whether a feminist approach is causing more harm to men than it does men any favours.

I don’t see feminism as doing either men or women any favours. I think feminism has fallen out of favour among women in the West because it no longer represents their interests, and it certainly doesn’t represent the majority of women. It got wrapped up in the gender wars and attacking men, whereas women in reality actually care deeply about the men in their lives, and so can’t relate to an ideology which has always been critical of men.

El_Duderino 09

silverharp wrote: »

feminists don't represent all women , they represent other feminists. If feminists got their way in everything they wanted lots of wives and mothers for example would have their interests damaged.

And lots of men who claim to care about men’s issues only want to whinge about feminism. So men are left completely with out representation.

Wouldn’t the most obvious solution be to focus on men’s issues? But nope. The solution is always to focus on feminism and never on men’s issues. The only ones who give a fig about men’s issues on these threads, is the few feminist.

Silentcorner

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

And lots of men who claim to care about men’s issues only want to whinge about feminism. So men are left completely with out representation.

Wouldn’t the most obvious solution be to focus on men’s issues? But nope. The solution is always to focus on feminism and never on men’s issues. The only ones who give a fig about men’s issues on these threads, is the few feminist.

Ok...let's put it a different way.

Misandry is a huge issue facing men these days, having influenced a number of area's in ordinary people's lives including work, media, culture and politics...am I allowed to whinge about misandry?

silverharp

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

And lots of men who claim to care about men’s issues only want to whinge about feminism. So men are left completely with out representation.

Wouldn’t the most obvious solution be to focus on men’s issues? But nope. The solution is always to focus on feminism and never on men’s issues. The only ones who give a fig about men’s issues on these threads, is the few feminist.

debunking feminism works too

El_Duderino 09

One eyed Jack wrote: »

In reality, most people don’t care one way or the other about issues that don’t affect them....

...whereas women in reality actually care deeply about the men in their lives, and so can’t relate to an ideology which has always been critical of men.

You say most people don’t care about issues that don’t affect them. But they can care about lots of those issues - how else did feminism become such a powerfully and effective movement (whether or not you agree with the achievements of the movement, you have to know it has had a massive impact).

Likewise, people can care about issues like men’s suicide rate but they have to know about it in order for them to care about it. And people find out about issues when those issues are promoted. This is so obvious it’s weird to have to say it to an adult.

People would naturally care about men’s issues if those issues are promoted. Whinging about feminism is just sport for people who enjoy whinging about feminism. The rate of suicide amongst men is a real issue that most normal people would care about when it’s promoted. Whinging about feminism, isn’t.

One eyed Jack

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

And lots of men who claim to care about men’s issues only want to whinge about feminism. So men are left completely with out representation.

Wouldn’t the most obvious solution be to focus on men’s issues? But nope. The solution is always to focus on feminism and never on men’s issues. The only ones who give a fig about men’s issues on these threads, is the few feminist.

I’m genuinely beginning to wonder do you come out with phrases like that in the hope that it will get a rise out of people.

Lots of men who claim to care about men’s issues and only want to whinge about feminism doesn’t mean men are left without representation. That’s like feminists pointing out that the vast majority of politicians are men, and so quotas must be introduced to increase female representation. It’s based upon the assumption that they represent women, when the reality is that they only represent a small minority of people who share their views.

TiGeR KiNgS

When will men get liberated from gender roles?
When women demand work on building sites hauling cement blocks around. i.e when pigs fly.

Snails pace

mr_fegelien wrote: »

Why does it disgust you more than a woman wearing masculine clothing?

I was with friends the other evening, male and female and the conversation somehow came to the topic of men in women's clothes. None of them thought it was right, including myself. I wouldn't be upset over it, but I just dont think it's right. Whatever about dressing in drag but going around day to day in women's clothes wouldn't be for me.

El_Duderino 09

silverharp wrote: »

debunking feminism works too

It gets you excited, no doubt about that. But it does naff all for men’s issues.

Promoting men’s issues would help with men’s issues. Whinging about feminism helps with whinging about feminism. It’s about bc as simple as that.

So one fact is that you enjoy giving out about feminism, so that’s what you do. And that’s grand. It’s a harmless activity. The only problem is when you pretend to yourself that it’s doing anything for men’s issues.

Yeah.. notice the kind of sneering undercurrent to his posts too..

KiKi III

Grass Fed Steak wrote: »

Feminism vilifies masculinity, it is in the interest of men's mental health to expose the nonsense of the modern feminist.

This just isn’t true.

dark crystal

Deleted User wrote: »

If males wish to stop the spread of misandry then, they should take every opportunity to call feminism out on its' double standards, hypocrisy, and BS. It'll be the only way to oppose the stereotypes that feminists are comfortable promoting about males, which are held up within the law especially in the family courts.

Many stereotypes tend to have their foundation in a fundamental truth, though, don't they?

By that I mean, in relation to the courts siding with mothers when it comes to custody cases, in my experience, it's women who generally do the lion's share of childcare, so it would follow that they would also get the lion's share of custody. Like, in my office alone, every person on part-time hours or who avail of worksharing are women. There isn't one man in the entire office who has opted do do this. There's nothing stopping them from doing so, they just tend to leave the bulk of the childcare burden to the woman. There are far more stay at home mothers than fathers in general.

Speaking of stereotypes, I was listening to a report on Newstalk radio the other day, wherein a reporter had interviewed a number of female candidates on the election campaign trail specifically about how they juggle their careers and their families. I found it remarkable that the focus was on female candidates only - the male candidates are never asked such questions.

Perhaps if there was true equality in matters such as childcare, you may begin to see the emphasis on mother's getting majority custody of the children start to level out more.

El_Duderino 09

Grass Fed Steak wrote: »

Feminism vilifies masculinity, it is in the interest of men's mental health to expose the nonsense of the modern feminist.

Which would be more effective for men's mental health; exposing feminism as is happening now, or actually campaigning FOR men's mental health issues to be addressed, promoting resilience, helping those who need help?

Honestly, which is more effective when it comes to men's mental health?

Silentcorner

KiKi III wrote: »

This just isn’t true.

It actually is true.

This was a guideline published by the American Psychological Association (renowned for it's feminist influences), it explicitly states that traditional masculininty is harmful...it was published in the NY Times.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/10/science/apa-traditional-masculinity-harmful.html

These people are deranged headbangers....imagine some guy, who has just gotten done in the family courts and cleaned out in a divorce went to one of these seeking help.

El_Duderino 09

Grass Fed Steak wrote: »

You do realise this is just a chat forum, you don't have to actually care about the underlying topic to enjoy discussing and debating a topic.

It's perfectly reasonable to not particularly care about men's issues and at the same time enjoy pointing out the hypocrisy of modern feminism.

Sure. I'm not asking you to do anything.

dark crystal

Grass Fed Steak wrote: »

What would true equality in the area of child care look like?

True equality would be an equal number of men and women opting to be the stay at home parent or opting to work part-time/workshare.

True equality would be women not being the only gender asked about how they juggle career and family.

Something like that. What would true equality of childcare look like to you?

One eyed Jack

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

You say most people don’t care about issues that don’t affect them. But they can care about lots of those issues - how else did feminism become such a powerfully and effective movement (whether or not you agree with the achievements of the movement, you have to know it has had a massive impact).

I don’t agree that it is a powerful movement in the first place as it hasn’t achieved anything noteworthy for women, simply because it doesn’t have the influence you appear to think it does.

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Likewise, people can care about issues like men’s suicide rate but they have to know about it in order for them to care about it. And people find out about issues when those issues are promoted. This is so obvious it’s weird to have to say it to an adult.

It’s just as weird from my perspective to have to explain to another adult that people are aware of suicide, they already know about it. That’s so obvious it shouldn’t have to be explained to an adult, but here we are explaining to an adult that adults have their own issues which are a priority for them, which do not necessarily correlate with the importance you place on certain issues, let alone do they share your approach in how to address those issues. We both agree for example that men taking their own lives is an issue, but whereas my approach is more about prevention, yours appears to be adopting suicide as a cause to further your own ideology.

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

People would naturally care about men’s issues if those issues are promoted. Whinging about feminism is just sport for people who enjoy whinging about feminism. The rate of suicide amongst men is a real issue that most normal people would care about when it’s promoted. Whinging about feminism, isn’t.

They don’t though, you don’t care for example that feminism presents issues for men, you deign those men as ‘whinging’ about feminism, instead of listening to their concerns they have about an approach which they feel is being imposed upon them, which isn’t helpful to men. Suicide is a tricky one as we know from statistical data that while the male suicide rate has plateaued (not as a result of anything feminism has or hasn’t done btw), the female suicide rate has risen exponentially in the last number of years, yet feminists are more interested in banging on about how feminism is going to address the male suicide rate.

Would it be weird for you if I asked you to explain to me how that works? How has feminism addressed the female suicide rate? It looks to me like they took their eye off the ball in going after promoting their ideology among men.

KiKi III

Silentcorner wrote: »

It actually is true.

This was a guideline published by the American Psychological Association (renowned for it's feminist influences), it explicitly states that traditional masculininty is harmful...it was published in the NY Times.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/10/science/apa-traditional-masculinity-harmful.html

These people are deranged headbangers....imagine some guy, who has just gotten done in the family courts and cleaned out in a divorce went to one of these seeking help.

For a start, these guidelines were not developed by feminists. Secondly, I’d imagine moving away from the “boys don’t cry” style of parenting is in fact good for kids given that the male of the species are born with emotions and functioning tear ducts.

Irish Guitarist

El_Duderino 09

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I’m genuinely beginning to wonder do you come out with phrases like that in the hope that it will get a rise out of people.

Lots of men who claim to care about men’s issues and only want to whinge about feminism doesn’t mean men are left without representation. That’s like feminists pointing out that the vast majority of politicians are men, and so quotas must be introduced to increase female representation. It’s based upon the assumption that they represent women, when the reality is that they only represent a small minority of people who share their views.

Sure. And those who want to raise awareness of men's issues will do that. Those who want to whinge about feminism, will do that.

Mens issues will only be represented by one of those groups.

El_Duderino 09

Grass Fed Steak wrote: »

He looks for a reaction from people, he's carrying trauma with him from never feeling respected when in a group of lads. It has made him bitter. Hence he punctuates his discourse with "lol' and "whingeing" so frequently. He still feels attacked by the popular boys in school.

Ah, t'is my aul rereg. My biggest fan. Lol.

dark crystal

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

'Magine if he was wearing a skirt sitting like that!

:pac:

One eyed Jack

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

LOL. So father's rights isn't a problem. I'd say that men will take issue with that bit in reality, myself and KiKi are tho only ones to have expressed an interest father's rights in this thread. And you're saying its not a problem.

If there were megs rights advocates in this thread, they'd object. But instead of men's rights activists, this thread is full of bloke's who enjoy whingeing about feminism. Pity

And yet the only person who has taken issue with it so far has been you. That’s the second time btw in this thread you’ve name dropped other posters as if they support your opinions. I wouldn’t make that association as I don’t see their perspectives in any way similar to yours.

I have to question your claim that you are interested in fathers rights when you don’t appear to be aware that mothers and fathers are regarded equally in the family courts, and decisions are based upon the children’s welfare and what is in the best interests of the children, not their parents.

It stands to reason from a broader perspective that women would be regarded as the primary carer in most cases when in reality, women make up 98% of parents who choose to work in the home, men only make up 2%. Both fathers and mothers have the same legal obligation to provide for their children, so perhaps you could explain to me what rights you think mothers have that you think fathers should have?

ArchXStanton

dark crystal wrote: »

Many stereotypes tend to have their foundation in a fundamental truth, though, don't they?

By that I mean, in relation to the courts siding with mothers when it comes to custody cases, in my experience, it's women who generally do the lion's share of childcare, so it would follow that they would also get the lion's share of custody. Like, in my office alone, every person on part-time hours or who avail of worksharing are women. There isn't one man in the entire office who has opted do do this. There's nothing stopping them from doing so, they just tend to leave the bulk of the childcare burden to the woman. There are far more stay at home mothers than fathers in general.

Speaking of stereotypes, I was listening to a report on Newstalk radio the other day, wherein a reporter had interviewed a number of female candidates on the election campaign trail specifically about how they juggle their careers and their families. I found it remarkable that the focus was on female candidates only - the male candidates are never asked such questions.

Perhaps if there was true equality in matters such as childcare, you may begin to see the emphasis on mother's getting majority custody of the children start to level out more.

Most feminists would run a million miles from "true" equality..

El_Duderino 09

dark crystal wrote: »

True equality would be an equal number of men and women opting to be the stay at home parent or opting to work part-time/workshare.

True equality would be women not being the only gender asked about how they juggle career and family.

Something like that. What would true equality of childcare look like to you?

We'll, I'd say true equality in that sense would be all parents having the same rights to parental leave in the law. The social acceptance of men choosing parental leave would obviously lag being but that's just the way things change. People see bloke's take parental leave and chat about it and then it becomes normal.

One eyed Jack

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Sure. And those who want to raise awareness of men's issues will do that. Those who want to whinge about feminism, will do that.

Mens issues will only be represented by one of those groups.

You’re still ignoring what I said - that feminism is an issue for some men, and they’re doing as you suggest - raising awareness of their issues with it as they see it.

You call that whingeing, but you’re not whinging of course. Well, according to you you’re not.

Silentcorner

KiKi III wrote: »

For a start, these guidelines were not developed by feminists. Secondly, I’d imagine moving away from the “boys don’t cry” style of parenting is in fact good for kids given that the male of the species are born with emotions and functioning tear ducts.

The ideology in the piece is blatant...I'll leave to more articulate women to discuss the potential harm in the guidelines

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uotH7DZb0Q

These guidelines were published just before the now infamous Gillette "Toxic Masculinity" ad, and advert that suggested that men were inherently toxic...an advert produced by a Radical Feminist, that would go on to do €8 billion worth of damage to a global brand.

In case you forgot....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koPmuEyP3a0&t=13s

Radical feminism is a toxic presence in today's world where men and women have long enjoyed the same rights...now it is aimed at undermining men and or masculinity....men need to keep well away from this wave of feminism.

https://www.amhf.org.au/male_psychology_what_s_wrong_with_apa_s_masculinity_guidelines

dark crystal

dark crystal wrote: »

Many stereotypes tend to have their foundation in a fundamental truth, though, don't they?

A fundamental truth, and yet, you next talk about your experience. A fundamental truth would be something that couldn't be argued against because it would be true regardless of the argument. ie. Women can get pregnant. Men can't. A fundamental truth.

However, better parenting based solely on the gender of the parent is not a fundamental truth, but a stereotype promoted because of traditional gender stereotypes. Feminists are awfully selective about what gender stereotypes are wrong, and which ones shouldn't be argued against for fear of losing benefits received based on gender.

By that I mean, in relation to the courts siding with mothers when it comes to custody cases, in my experience, it's women who generally do the lion's share of childcare, so it would follow that they would also get the lion's share of custody.

In most of those cases, the male is the one working and providing the monetary support for the female to live like that. If the male had the option to raise children, and the woman support his lifestyle choice, then would that make him a better parent?

Like, in my office alone, every person on part-time hours or who avail of worksharing are women. There isn't one man in the entire office who has opted do do this. There's nothing stopping them from doing so, they just tend to leave the bulk of the childcare burden to the woman. There are far more stay at home mothers than fathers in general.

Social conditioning. For all the push to remove such conditioning, there is still the expectation for the male to work while the female does the parenting.

My parents were the opposite, with my mother being career driven, and my father choosing work which allowed him to finish early to look after us. He did the cooking, the cleaning of the house, went to teacher-parent meetings, etc.

Couples make certain choices, and while there are benefits within society and from the State for a woman to leave the workplace to look after children, there are extremely few similar benefits for males to do the same. That has an impact on people choosing who should stay at home and who should build the career to bring in the cash.

Speaking of stereotypes, I was listening to a report on Newstalk radio the other day, wherein a reporter had interviewed a number of female candidates on the election campaign trail specifically about how they juggle their careers and their families. I found it remarkable that the focus was on female candidates only - the male candidates are never asked such questions.

Because the push is for more female politicians? Like there was a tv show recently, showing Irish women who became successful in spite of the difficulties in society at the time. All the examples were from at least 70 years ago. By your logic, it would be interesting that I've never seen a similar show for Irish males who became successful in spite of their challenges..

There is a massive push to keep women, and the challenges they do, or supposedly face in society within the view of everyone. There's a constant need to reinforce the need for quotas, or the huge funding that female organisations receive compared to what's allocated to males.

Perhaps if there was true equality in matters such as childcare, you may begin to see the emphasis on mother's getting majority custody of the children start to level out more.

I doubt it. TBH that kind of logic has been borne out in other areas of society, as women have gained equality with males, but retained the biases that benefited them before equality. It has been well known for decades that females receive lesser sentencing in similar cases, but nothing has changed.

s7ryf3925pivug

Someone who says feminism is evil marginalises themselves and undermines whatever else they say.

Someone who argues in favour of feminism gives themselves credibility in arguing against discriminatory practices against men.

This point was already made, and the people who don't get it are too entrenched in their viewpoints to communicate with. ...But I've already typed this all out so I might as well click that Post Quick Reply button down there...

One eyed Jack

Valentino Old-fashioned Spacecraft wrote: »

Someone who says feminism is evil marginalises themselves and undermines whatever else they say.

Someone who argues in favour of feminism gives themselves credibility in discussing discriminatory practices against men.

This point was already made, and the people who don't get it are too entrenched in their viewpoints to communicate with. ...But I've already typed this all out so I might as well click that Post Quick Reply button down there...

Only amongst feminists who already agree with their point of view :pac:

Sarcozies

dark crystal wrote: »

True equality would be an equal number of men and women opting to be the stay at home parent or opting to work part-time/workshare.

True equality would be women not being the only gender asked about how they juggle career and family.

Something like that. What would true equality of childcare look like to you?

Is having 50/50 actually equality tho? That's equality of outcome, which I don't believe to be equality at all.

Wouldn't it be better to have equality of opportunity i.e whatever the man and woman decide? Who's wants to do it? Who's better at it??

Valentino Old-fashioned Spacecraft

Valentino Old-fashioned Spacecraft wrote: »

Someone who says feminism is evil marginalises themselves and undermines whatever else they say.
.

The problem is that the world and the internet has swung to extremes. You cannot be allowed to be a moderate anymore.

The first three waves of feminism, for the most part, had reasonable things to fight against, and that's why it received so much support from both genders.

Modern feminism though tends swing towards the more radical side of feminism which seems more intent in punishing the male gender for practices that happened before most of them were born.

I believe and want equality. Equality of opportunity for both genders. Equal benefits and protections for the genders. If a person chooses to be the primary parent, then the benefits should be available for either gender to avail of. And the other party, regardless of gender, should not be penalised in divorce or child custody because of those choices. TBH I'd love to see people being treated as adults and held responsible for the choices/decisions they make in life.

El_Duderino 09

One eyed Jack wrote: »

And yet the only person who has taken issue with it so far has been you. That’s the second time btw in this thread you’ve name dropped other posters as if they support your opinions. I wouldn’t make that association as I don’t see their perspectives in any way similar to yours.

I have to question your claim that you are interested in fathers rights when you don’t appear to be aware that mothers and fathers are regarded equally in the family courts, and decisions are based upon the children’s welfare and what is in the best interests of the children, not their parents.

It stands to reason from a broader perspective that women would be regarded as the primary carer in most cases when in reality, women make up 98% of parents who choose to work in the home, men only make up 2%. Both fathers and mothers have the same legal obligation to provide for their children, so perhaps you could explain to me what rights you think mothers have that you think fathers should have?

Great if you feel there’s no issue with fathers rights. I also support addressing the causes of the suicide rate amongst men. And I support addressing men’s rates of homelessness, and domestic violence against men to name a few issues.

It’s genuinely fascinating that you’re taking issue with me for supporting addressing men’s issues. But that’s one of the reasons why the men’s movement struggles to get going.

El_Duderino 09

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I don’t agree that it is a powerful movement in the first place as it hasn’t achieved anything noteworthy for women, simply because it doesn’t have the influence you appear to think it does.

Then why oh why oh why, is debunking feminism so much more important for some blokes than actually advocating for men’s issues?

El_Duderino 09

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Suicide is a tricky one as we know from statistical data that while the male suicide rate has plateaued (not as a result of anything feminism has or hasn’t done btw), the female suicide rate has risen exponentially in the last number of years, yet feminists are more interested in banging on about how feminism is going to address the male suicide rate.

Would it be weird for you if I asked you to explain to me how that works? How has feminism addressed the female suicide rate? It looks to me like they took their eye off the ball in going after promoting their ideology among men.

I don’t expect feminism to address Male suicide rates. I would expect a men’s rights movement to address men’s suicide rates but such a movement doesn’t really exist, unfortunately.

I wouldn’t expect the ones who enjoy whinging about feminists to address it either. I don’t see how whinging about feminism could address men’s mental health. Now, promoting men’s mental health and lobbying for funding to study and arrests it with evidence based interventions. That’s something that could help address the issues.

Silentcorner

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Then why oh why oh why, is debunking feminism so much more important for some blokes than actually advocating for men’s issues?

It is actually very important to, it is a toxic ideology.

Imagine if media, culture and politics were being infested by Catholicism, it was everywhere and nobody criticized it if you did you were ridiculed or quietened...this place would be lighting up with "whingers"....this is no different.

El_Duderino 09

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I don’t agree that it is a powerful movement in the first place as it hasn’t achieved anything noteworthy for women, simply because it doesn’t have the influence you appear to think it does.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You’re still ignoring what I said - that feminism is an issue for some men, and they’re doing as you suggest - raising awareness of their issues with it as they see it.

You call that whingeing, but you’re not whinging of course. Well, according to you you’re not.

Here you say feminism is an issue, then you say feminism isn’t an influential movement. I can’t honestly say I know what you really think about it because you’re giving two contradictory accounts.

Basically, I gather that you’re interested in giving out about feminism whether it’s effective or not and you have no interest in advocating for men’s issues whether it would be effective or not.

Just for the sake of clarity: you’ve said YOU think feminism isn’t an effective movement and OTHER men think it is effective so the spend time opposing it. So what do you think is the more effective way to help with men’s issues? Talking about feminism or actually lobbying for solutions to men’s issues

El_Duderino 09

Silentcorner wrote: »

It is actually very important to, it is a toxic ideology.

Imagine if media, culture and politics were being infested by Catholicism, it was everywhere and nobody criticized it if you did you were ridiculed or quietened...this place would be lighting up with "whingers"....this is no different.

Funny that you and the other poster above have opposing views on the influence of the feminism movement but you both would never think to discuss it between you.

The avoidance of discussing anything of substance that would help men’s issues, in favour of making up uses for whinging about Feminism, is genuinely fascinating.

Silentcorner

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Funny that you and the other poster have opposing views on the influence of the feminism movement but you both would never think to discuss it between you.

The avoidance of discussing anything of substance that would help men’s issues, in favour of making up uses for whinging about Feminism, is genuinely fascinating.

I'd say you bang your head off walls a lot!!