What have we come to

growleaves

smurgen wrote: »

Has anything positive come out of Fine Gael at all since before the election? Surely the best way to win back voters would be to tackle issues, give people hope and come up with fast track plans.all they've done is attack non stop and slur large parts of the electorate.

I think the answer to why they haven't done that is on these threads.

FG have become economically liberal determinists, believing that they are engaged in dispassionate technocratic management. Its their view of this 'economic clockwork', which they believe supersedes politics, that has created their reaction - they may even think that SF voters mean well but are simply 'incorrect'.

Those poor dearies, don't they know that permanent job insecurity, declining wages, excessive compensation for CEOs, passing on costs to consumers, land-hoarding cartels, tax avoidance for profitable banks, skyrocketing insurance premiums etc., etc. are all inevitable like death, aging and the rain in Sligo?

Shefwedfan

smurgen wrote: »

Especially when he's busy signing off on legislation to ban microbeads.

You just really haven’t a clue do you?

That bit of legislation will probably save millions of people from cancer and other diseases

Shefwedfan

shadydestroyer wrote: »

I don't think Fine Gael didn't do themselves any favors with my generation early 30's is the whole RIC Commemoration right before the general election. One of the stupidest things they ever done and just shows how far they are from general public with "Come out ye Black and Tans" going number one in the UK and Ireland on the Itunes chart.

Also of course the cost of housing, renting and the health service in **** is another reason.
Mary pops out baby, gets a free house while others are working hard and can't get a mortgage?

Who else was their left for us to vote for? Fine Fail who bankrupted the country or Fine Gael who don't give a flying feck about the working class or young people.

Leo was so far away from what the middle class workers needed. I think people were just sick of bending over for Fine Gael and have had enough.

Sinn Fein was all there was left to vote for.

That’s the problem, people just voted for Sinn Fein because they felt no other alternative

What you should have done was looked into what a Sinn Fein vote meant

The greens, Labour, independents etc, you have loads of options....even just vote for the best politician in the area, who has done the most for your area in last 5 years

I bet you will find your local SF politician in most areas has done f**k all for anyone but themselves

Foxtrol

growleaves wrote: »

I think the answer to why they haven't done that is on these threads.

FG have become economically liberal determinists, believing that they are engaged in dispassionate technocratic management. Its their view of this 'economic clockwork', which they believe supersedes politics, that has created their reaction - they may even think that SF voters mean well but are simply 'incorrect'.

Those poor dearies, don't they know that permanent job insecurity, declining wages, excessive compensation for CEOs, passing on costs to consumers, land-hoarding cartels, tax avoidance for profitable banks, skyrocketing insurance premiums etc., etc. are all inevitable like death, aging and the rain in Sligo?

What do you expect from them? FG currently have the same power as posters on these threads that you are complaining about, absolutely f*** all.

Also, does any party believe that people who vote for their rivals are 'correct'? Have SF come out and said that the 40 plus percent of people that voted for FF/FG are 'correct'?

Fred Cryton

growleaves wrote: »

Those poor dearies, don't they know that permanent job insecurity, declining wages, excessive compensation for CEOs, passing on costs to consumers, land-hoarding cartels, tax avoidance for profitable banks, skyrocketing insurance premiums etc., etc. are all inevitable like death, aging and the rain in Sligo?

Taking those one by one:


permanent job insecurity - that is common to all modern nations, nothing particular to Ireland or FG.

declining wages - Not true, wages are rising in Ireland, substantially.

excessive compensation for CEOs - common to all capitalist societies

passing on costs to consumers - huh? Why wouldn't they pass on costs to the consumers, are they charities?

land-hoarding cartels - If you don't like what someone is doing with the land, then you should pay more for it when it's for sale.

tax avoidance for profitable banks - a consequence of FF policies up to '07

skyrocketing insurance premiums - caused by Irish people making spurious insurance claims and by payouts hugely out of line with other countries. Why are insurance companies leaving Ireland if it's so great.



So in summary you are a classic lower middle class newly minted SF voter who thinks you've come across a magic beans solutions to everything but in fact are unaware of your limited analytical ability.

Idbatterim

Shefwedfan wrote: »

That’s the problem, people just voted for Sinn Fein because they felt no other alternative

What you should have done was looked into what a Sinn Fein vote meant

The greens, Labour, independents etc, you have loads of options....even just vote for the best politician in the area, who has done the most for your area in last 5 years

I bet you will find your local SF politician in most areas has done f**k all for anyone but themselves

I know what a vote for FFG meant, more of the same ****e if they arent given a serious rattle. Which they have been, this may have been the wake up call they needed.

Shefwedfan

Idbatterim wrote: »

I know what a vote for FFG meant, more of the same ****e if they arent given a serious rattle. Which they have been, this may have been the wake up call they needed.

Which is a bit stupid in my view


If the best politician in your area is a FF or a FG then vote for him


Instead, like in our area, we have a waste of space SF politician which has zero interest in the area, has done nothing for years and bet is he will continue to do nothing.



So instead of giving FF/FG a wake up call, you are now left with a waster for potentially 5 years who will do nothing for the area

Fann Linn

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Which is a bit stupid in my view


If the best politician in your area is a FF or a FG then vote for him


Instead, like in our area, we have a waste of space SF politician which has zero interest in the area, has done nothing for years and bet is he will continue to do nothing.



So instead of giving FF/FG a wake up call, you are now left with a waster for potentially 5 years who will do nothing for the area

Id prefer a TD to work for the country as a whole, rather than the local area. Too many Healy Rae's already covering that base.

James Brown

Shefwedfan wrote: »

That’s the problem, people just voted for Sinn Fein because they felt no other alternative

What you should have done was looked into what a Sinn Fein vote meant

The greens, Labour, independents etc, you have loads of options....even just vote for the best politician in the area, who has done the most for your area in last 5 years

I bet you will find your local SF politician in most areas has done f**k all for anyone but themselves

Do you not see that they were looking? Regardless of SF, FG need look at that. If it wasn't SF it would have been the SD's, Greens etc. Slagging off SF in not helping the public with their issues.
Be nice if FG concerned themselves with that.

Cupatae

At this stage there all ****e let's be real most of em are there to collect a wage, we may aswell do raffle instead of elections , if your number is called have a crack at it and collect your wage/pension and drive on.

Shefwedfan

Bowie wrote: »

Do you not see that they were looking? Regardless of SF, FG need look at that. If it wasn't SF it would have been the SD's, Greens etc. Slagging off SF in not helping the public with their issues.
Be nice if FG concerned themselves with that.

As I said I want to see SF in power, how is Mary Lou getting on with talking to other parties?

Or still just talking to RTÉ?

growleaves

Fred Cryton wrote: »

permanent job insecurity - that is common to all modern nations, nothing particular to Ireland or FG.

excessive compensation for CEOs - common to all capitalist societies

It isn't common to all capitalist societies - just to ones in the here and now.

For most of the 20th century, a combination of social and political pressure (including by governments) made it impossible for wealthy interests to impose Gilded Age-style wealth inequalities on Americans and Europeans.

Starting with the '77 boom and bust followed by Reaganomics and 'recovery', that consensus has been replaced by a new economically liberal one which neither I, nor Irish people generally, are forced to endorse uncritically.

declining wages - Not true, wages are rising in Ireland, substantially.

But if real wages aren't rising fast enough relative to inflation over a longer period then they are declining overall.

land-hoarding cartels - If you don't like what someone is doing with the land, then you should pay more for it when it's for sale.

Yeah I was going to buy up all the prime development land in this country personally but I spent so much on magic beans I didn't have any money left over.

Like I said, these people have lost their belief in politics.

Politics is about resolving controverted cases. If I don't like what someone is doing with the land I don't have to just write about it in my diary. I can start new political parties, organise campaigns etc.

So in summary you are a classic lower middle class newly minted SF voter who thinks you've come across a magic beans solutions to everything but in fact are unaware of your limited analytical ability.

I have a different opinion because I'm stupid. If I were smarter, our opinions would be identical.

If anyone wants me I'll be on top of my magic beanstalk - there's a great view from up here.

James Brown

Shefwedfan wrote: »

As I said I want to see SF in power, how is Mary Lou getting on with talking to other parties?

Or still just talking to RTÉ?

So all you took from my comment was 'SF', proved my point sadly.
I learned of the SF rally through an RTE piece about Varadkar's reaction. So seems its needed. Beats a tax payer funded spin unit.

The country is more important than the pride of any party.

Cupatae

growleaves wrote: »

It isn't common to all capitalist societies - just to ones in the here and now.

For most of the 20th century, a combination and social and political pressure (including by governments) made it impossible for wealthy interests to impose Gilded Age-style wealth inequalities on Americans and Europeans.

Starting with the '77 boom and bust followed by Reaganomics and 'recovery', that consensus has been replaced by a new econmically liberal one which neither I, nor Irish people generally, are forced to endorse uncritically.



But if real wages aren't rising fast enough relative to inflation over a longer period then they are declining overall.



Yeah I was going to buy up all the prime development land in this country personally but I spent so much on magic beans I didn't have any money left over.

Like I said, these people have lost their belief in politics.

Politics is about resolving controverted cases. If I don't like what someone is doing with the land I don't have to just write about it in my diary. I can start new political parties, organise campaigns etc.



I have a different opinion because I'm stupid. If I were smarter, our opinions would be identical.

If anyone wants me I'll be on top of my magic beanstalk - there's a great view from up here.

Let's see if they can spot the sarcasm using there superior analytic ability.

hatrickpatrick

Shefwedfan wrote: »

That’s the problem, people just voted for Sinn Fein because they felt no other alternative

What you should have done was looked into what a Sinn Fein vote meant

The greens, Labour, independents etc, you have loads of options....even just vote for the best politician in the area, who has done the most for your area in last 5 years

I bet you will find your local SF politician in most areas has done f**k all for anyone but themselves

The Greens and labour have gone into coalition with the neoliberal parties in the past and allowed them to f*ck the country. The leaflet I posted earlier in the thread was shared far and wide by people my age and its entirely argument was trying to form a government which didn't include either of those two, so that no compromises with economic neoliberals would be required. A vote for SF was seen as the only way to make this even remotely possible, for the specific reason that Labour and the Greens can't be trusted to reject the economic right wing.

The only thing that puzzles me is why the SocDems didn't do better on the transfers. That's the only thing about the election result which really did surprise me.

hatrickpatrick

Not the poster you were replying to, but this caught my eye so just throwing in my own two cents:

Fred Cryton wrote: »

Taking those one by one:

Doing the same:

permanent job insecurity - that is common to all modern nations, nothing particular to Ireland or FG.

The modern West in general went down the rabbit hole of neoliberalism in the early 90s and hasn't come back from it yet. The vote for SF and the left in general is an attempt to emerge from that.

declining wages - Not true, wages are rising in Ireland, substantially.

Just not in keeping with the cost of living generally, the cost of housing in particular.

excessive compensation for CEOs - common to all capitalist societies

See above. This vote is an attempt to change that through democratic means.

passing on costs to consumers - huh? Why wouldn't they pass on costs to the consumers, are they charities?

They should be forced to act in a socially responsible manner, and it's government's job to force them to.

land-hoarding cartels - If you don't like what someone is doing with the land, then you should pay more for it when it's for sale.

Or, we should acknowledge that land is a national resource and not allow people to abuse is in this manner, again through democratic policy making.

tax avoidance for profitable banks - a consequence of FF policies up to '07

And FG has allowed it to continue, hence rejecting both FF and FG.

skyrocketing insurance premiums - caused by Irish people making spurious insurance claims and by payouts hugely out of line with other countries. Why are insurance companies leaving Ireland if it's so great.

Caused by the government refusing to change the law around what counts as a business's liability and what counts as someone's own stupidity. FFG have been in power for decades and they have done nothing to address this.

So in summary you are a classic lower middle class newly minted SF voter who thinks you've come across a magic beans solutions to everything but in fact are unaware of your limited analytical ability.

I've never voted for SF before in my life and this time around I gave our local candidate my #2 after Richard Boyd Barrett, specifically because I believes a big enough SF share of seats would allow them to form an exclusively centre to left coalition without including either of the centre to right parties. I suspect many, many people of my generation did the same thing.

smurgen

Shefwedfan wrote: »

You just really haven’t a clue do you?

That bit of legislation will probably save millions of people from cancer and other diseases

Ah so tis cancer Murphy is focusing on. Tell me is that still not Harris' area? Was Murphy brought in as a backup minister for health because Harris is so ineffective? Are fine Gael also just completely abandoning housing altogether and admitting there's nothing they can do?

Brendan Bendar

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Not the poster you were replying to, but this caught my eye so just throwing in my own two cents:



Doing the same:



The modern West in general went down the rabbit hole of neoliberalism in the early 90s and hasn't come back from it yet. The vote for SF and the left in general is an attempt to emerge from that.



Just not in keeping with the cost of living generally, the cost of housing in particular.



See above. This vote is an attempt to change that through democratic means.



They should be forced to act in a socially responsible manner, and it's government's job to force them to.



Or, we should acknowledge that land is a national resource and not allow people to abuse is in this manner, again through democratic policy making.



And FG has allowed it to continue, hence rejecting both FF and FG.



Caused by the government refusing to change the law around what counts as a business's liability and what counts as someone's own stupidity. FFG have been in power for decades and they have done nothing to address this.



I've never voted for SF before in my life and this time around I gave our local candidate my #2 after Richard Boyd Barrett, specifically because I believes a big enough SF share of seats would allow them to form an exclusively centre to left coalition without including either of the centre to right parties. I suspect many, many people of my generation did the same thing.

Too much baggage, dude.

hatrickpatrick

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Too much baggage, dude.

Nobody is getting any younger. The people whose youths are rapidly slipping away due to the rising cost of living aren't going to wait around for an alternative to emerge.

Cupatae

FG and FF giving out about SF rallies...

Meanwhile...:pac::pac:

Eric Cartman

Cupatae wrote: »

FG and FF giving out about SF rallies...

Meanwhile...:pac::pac:

Well if we’re allowed to use old pictures out of context, here is a much much newer gerry adams next to jean mcconville who was dissapeared by an SFIRA member for giving a british soldier a glass of water

Cupatae

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Well if we’re allowed to use old pictures out of context, here is a much much newer gerry adams next to jean mcconville who was dissapeared by an SFIRA member for giving a british soldier a glass of water

think u linked the wrong pic.

blanch152

Bowie wrote: »

Do you not see that they were looking? Regardless of SF, FG need look at that. If it wasn't SF it would have been the SD's, Greens etc. Slagging off SF in not helping the public with their issues.
Be nice if FG concerned themselves with that.

Fine Gael got 20% of the vote. Why are the Sinn Fein cheerleaders on here still obsessing about them?

Slagging off Sinn Fein will do nothing to attract people like you, but you would never give your vote to Fine Gael anyway. However, there are 70% of people in this country who will never ever vote Sinn Fein and Fine Gael is appealing to them.

Brendan Bendar

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Nobody is getting any younger. The people whose youths are rapidly slipping away due to the rising cost of living aren't going to wait around for an alternative to emerge.

Yes, that is a fair point.

bladespin

blanch152 wrote: »

Fine Gael got 20% of the vote. Why are the Sinn Fein cheerleaders on here still obsessing about them?

Slagging off Sinn Fein will do nothing to attract people like you, but you would never give your vote to Fine Gael anyway. However, there are 70% of people in this country who will never ever vote Sinn Fein and Fine Gael is appealing to them.

Agree on a lot of what you say but the maths don't add up, there's nothing to suggest that 70% of people would never vote SF, the didn't this time round but those kinds of numbers are not hardcore anti SF or pro FG/FF/Green etc, that percentage would be much (much) lower, voters are much more changeable now, the died in the wool crowd are (literally) dying off.

I didn't/wouldn't vote SF but have no way of knowing how I'll feel about them after they've played a more senior role in our politics - one way or another that's about to happen, a lot of 'fencers' like me are about to be informed (whatever way that goes).

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Fine Gael got 20% of the vote. Why are the Sinn Fein cheerleaders on here still obsessing about them?

Slagging off Sinn Fein will do nothing to attract people like you, but you would never give your vote to Fine Gael anyway. However, there are 70% of people in this country who will never ever vote Sinn Fein and Fine Gael is appealing to them.

The 'ceiling' is being put back up!

blanch152

bladespin wrote: »

Agree on a lot of what you say but the maths don't add up, there's nothing to suggest that 70% of people would never vote SF, the didn't this time round but those kinds of numbers are not hardcore anti SF or pro FG/FF/Green etc, that percentage would be much (much) lower, voters are much more changeable now, the died in the wool crowd are (literally) dying off.

I didn't/wouldn't vote SF but have no way of knowing how I'll feel about them after they've played a more senior role in our politics - oine way or another that's about to happen, a lot of 'fencers' like me are about to be informed (whatever way that goes).

That 70% could change over time, I agree, but Sinn Fein would have to do an awful lot from dropping silly policies to getting rid of all the legacy nastiness before they could ever do better. That would just turn them into Fianna Fail nua though.

If they stay as they are, there are limits.

Cupatae

blanch152 wrote: »

Fine Gael got 20% of the vote. Why are the Sinn Fein cheerleaders on here still obsessing about them?

Slagging off Sinn Fein will do nothing to attract people like you, but you would never give your vote to Fine Gael anyway. However, there are 70% of people in this country who will never ever vote Sinn Fein and Fine Gael is appealing to them.

70% that will never ever vote SF? jaysus we could have skipped the election and just got onto you instead you know the minds of the public so well.

Any chance of next weeks lotto numbers?

bladespin

blanch152 wrote: »

That would just turn them into Fianna Fail nua though.

If they stay as they are, there are limits.

Isn't that what they really are though, FF and FG seem to have morphed into each other (I'm not joking or trolling), imo that's splitting their vote share and part of the cause of the results.

I'll also credit SF with some massive changes in the last 30 years, when I started voting you woukld literally be concerned about them canvassing at your door, they're definitely not that anymore especially at a local level - which is where they've gained so much (again just my opinion).

FrancieBrady

Cupatae wrote: »

70% that will never ever vote SF? jaysus we could have skipped the election and just got onto you instead you know the minds of the public so well.

Any chance of next weeks lotto numbers?

blanch was adamant SF had reached the ceiling in their vote before the election and even in the face of the polling was putting that at 17 or 18%.
A few others had big wadges of cash on them not getting more than 28 seats...they haven't been seen here since.

I wouldn't be taking any betting advice of them to be perfectly honest.