What have we come to

suicide_circus

BanditLuke wrote: »

Crap paying jobs

Health service a total mess

Rent crisis

Housing crisis

Justice system a joke

Pensions, environment, water infrastructure etc.. etc...

but yeah no crisis at all.

clearly you think SF will fix these things.

I envy your confidence but i just cant see it. Were FG uniquely incompetent or evil to allow these things to happen? and are SF uniquely competent and virtuous that they will fix them?

Yurt2

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

The rent crisis - created by Dublin's people refusal to move outside Dublin.

I'm trying not to be rude here but for goodness sake, you think this is what is causing the crisis? And your trying to make the arguement that Sinn Féin's head is in the clouds policy wise?

SusieBlue

Ush1 wrote: »

I wasn't moaning about the Sinn Fein one, I pointed out how it differs from the others when you said they were all 3 "much of muchness".:pac:

Now you shifted the goalposts to "they are all not achievable". Have you considered politics yourself? I hear Sinn Fein have a few openings need filling.

I'll just quote our conversation to jog your memory as you are clearly having difficulty in following what I said.

SusieBlue wrote: »

The policies of the 3 main parties were all much of muchness.
We've had almost a hundred years of FF/FG, they too made unachievable promises and they have completely mismanaged our budgets.
For the amount of tax we pay we should have far better public services and they simply haven't delivered, there has been no improvement.
Its time to give someone else an opportunity to make a difference.

Ush1 wrote: »

No they weren't(and if they were if would make it even stranger). Lets take pensions, Sinn Fein claimed that "demographics" will take care of that. Can you show where FG or FF are claiming the same?

SusieBlue wrote: »

The point I was making was that they were ALL making unrealistic, unachievable promises on one point or another. That is what they do. Not one party had a perfectly achievable manifesto, not just SF.

I never moved any goalposts, I clarified what I meant.
I meant they were all much of a muchness in the conext that there's aspects in ALL manifestos that were unachieavable.
You have no point here. I clarified what I meant immediately when you asked and you are still putting words in my mouth.

James Brown

suicide_circus wrote: »

clearly you think SF will fix these things.

I envy your confidence but i just cant see it. Were FG uniquely incompetent or evil to allow these things to happen? and are SF uniquely competent and virtuous that they will fix them?

FG wanted to serve business. This cost the tax payer and exacerbated the housing and homeless crises.
All any government need do is wean off the reliance on the private market and build social and affordable until the market cools enough that working people can pay rent without state aid.

storker

suicide_circus wrote: »

clearly you think SF will fix these things.

I suspect it's more the case that he knows FFG won't.

Zetor19

I obviously meant the lifelong tracksuit wearing scumbags that never have and never will work a day in their lives, they are in every town in the country. Collect the dole and spend the day in the pub and bookies. But because of them joining in the protest vote and voting for sf many more of us will likely join theses scumbags on the dole now as the country is going to go to the dogs pretty soon.

Cupatae

Zetor19 wrote: »

I obviously meant the lifelong tracksuit wearing scumbags that never have and never will work a day in their lives, they are in every town in the country. Collect the dole and spend the day in the pub and bookies. But because of them joining in the protest vote and voting for sf many more of us will likely join theses scumbags on the dole now as the country is going to go to the dogs pretty soon.

Solid logic there.

gormdubhgorm

Yurt! wrote: »

I'm trying not to be rude here but for goodness sake, you think this is what is causing the crisis? And your trying to make the arguement that Sinn Féin's head is in the clouds policy wise?

Well maybe I should join them at that rate - all they need is the SF badge these days and get elected regardless. If Dublin went high rise like most other capital cities in the world for those who want to stay in Dublin things would be a lot better. The Irish obsession with gardens and 'land' is the problem.

gormdubhgorm

Zetor19 wrote: »

I obviously meant the lifelong tracksuit wearing scumbags that never have and never will work a day in their lives, they are in every town in the country. Collect the dole and spend the day in the pub and bookies. But because of them joining in the protest vote and voting for sf many more of us will likely join theses scumbags on the dole now as the country is going to go to the dogs pretty soon.

Weren't you defending SF during the election on boards? That is some u-turn! :eek:

sameoldname

Matt Barrett wrote: »

All any government need do is wean off the reliance on the private market and build social and affordable until the market cools enough that working people can pay rent without state aid.

Fair enough, but how?

Are we just going to build social housing neighborhoods/high rises again and move away from mixed developments? They haven't been too popular with the public whenever they've been tried.

How do you build 100,000 homes in 5 years without over inflating the construction sector like what happened before the last crash?

Are we going to contract home building out to private developers or are we going to hire construction workers directly by the councils? Because if we hire them directly they'll be on the books forever.

How do you manage house prices to make them affordable while not upsetting people who have had to secure a €450,000 mortgage in the same area a few years previously? You could drive them into negative equity but they won't thank you next election. Will the state pay off a portion of their mortgage? It would be fairer but it would cost billions. And what of the people who have no mortgage but see the value of their home decrease, will they be paid?

There's lots of answers to these questions but there's no easy ones. And the population are fickle as we've seen.

Yurt2

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Well maybe I should join them at that rate - all they need is the SF badge these days and get elected regardless. If Dublin went high rise like most other capital cities in the world for those who want to stay in Dublin things would be a lot better. The Irish obsession with gardens and 'land' is the problem.

It's gardens. Gardens are the problem, and the gnomes that go in the gardens. They're also at fault. Gnomes on the dole, there we go. Bloody spongers. On their trampoline in the garden. In their Celtic jerseys. All day, while I go off to work.

Oh to be a gnome on the dole in the garden of their free gaffe.

BorneTobyWilde

Why are people using the term '' Sinn Fein '' are a left party, as a way to diss them/?
WTF?
Ireland couldn't be more far left if it tried the past 20 years. If you want to identify as a Giraffe in Ireland then god dam it you are a Giraffe, and anyone who says your not is a bigot .

gormdubhgorm

sameoldname wrote: »

Fair enough, but how?

Are we just going to build social housing neighborhoods/high rises again and move away from mixed developments? They haven't been too popular with the public whenever they've been tried.

How do you build 100,000 homes in 5 years without over inflating the construction sector like what happened before the last crash?

Are we going to contract home building out to private developers or are we going to hire construction workers directly by the councils? Because if we hire them directly they'll be on the books forever.

How do you manage house prices to make them affordable while not upsetting people who have had to secure a €450,000 mortgage in the same area a few years previously? You could drive them into negative equity but they won't thank you next election. Will the state pay off a portion of their mortgage? It would be fairer but it would cost billions. And what of the people who have no mortgage but see the value of their home decrease, will they be paid?

There's lots of answers to these questions but there's no easy ones. And the population are fickle as we've seen.

It is obvious 'change'
A party who will have to go into coalition with one of the two parties it claims that it is the 'alternative' to - the irony

ThunbergsAreGo

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Why are people using the term '' Sinn Fein '' are a left party, as a way to diss them/?
WTF?
Ireland couldn't be more far left if it tried the past 20 years. If you want to identify as a Giraffe in Ireland then god dam it you are a Giraffe, and anyone who says your not is a bigot .

Left/Right doesnt really work in Ireland but if we want to use it, left socially, doesnt mean left economically

Ush1

SusieBlue wrote: »

I'll just quote our conversation to jog your memory as you are clearly having difficulty in following what I said.







I never moved any goalposts, I clarified what I meant.
I meant they were all much of a muchness in the conext that there's aspects in ALL manifestos that were unachieavable.
You have no point here. I clarified what I meant immediately when you asked and you are still putting words in my mouth.

Okay, lets pretend that's true. You're saying all the parties are the same so just give this one a go?

You're completely ignoring the policies is what you're saying.

My point is fairly clear I think to most apart from you, you voted for reasons OTHER than policy.

gormdubhgorm

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Why are people using the term '' Sinn Fein '' are a left party, as a way to diss them/?
WTF?
Ireland couldn't be more far left if it tried the past 20 years. If you want to identify as a Giraffe in Ireland then god dam it you are a Giraffe, and anyone who says your not is a bigot .

Are SF even the furthest left these days?
Some of them even look like intellectuals with no tie, but neat. Poised.



PBP have the scruffier look

Ush1

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Are SF even the furthest left these days?
Some of them even look like intellectuals with no tie, but neat. Poised.



PBP have the scruffier look

Really?

cadaliac

"Could Sinn Fein derail a Brexit trade deal? Republicans win Irish election after urging hard EU line in talks with UK and reunification with Ulster "

Daily mail headline. (I know, I know, daily mail) but this is the sort of thing being bounced around now.

gormdubhgorm

cadaliac wrote: »

"Could Sinn Fein derail a Brexit trade deal? Republicans win Irish election after urging hard EU line in talks with UK and reunification with Ulster "

Daily mail headline. (I know, I know, daily mail) but this is the sort of thing being bounced around now.

I think the 'reunification with ulster' will remain nothing but an aspiration.

As the 'hard EU line' if SF do that fair play to them. But where were they during the Brexit negotiations?

SusieBlue

Ush1 wrote: »

Okay, lets pretend that's true. You're saying all the parties are the same so just give this one a go?

You're completely ignoring the policies is what you're saying.

My point is fairly clear I think to most apart from you, you voted for reasons OTHER than policy.

I'm not ignoring the policies, I didn't even comment my opinion on them one way or another other than to say there are unachievable aspects all round, across all arties.
I just said that using the discrepencies in SF's policies as a stick to beat them with is disengenuous unless you are going to hold all the other manifestos to the same standard.

I'm saying FF/FG have had ample opportunity to make good on improving public services and budgeting and they haven't done that, and its time to give someone else a chance.
I really don't know what's so difficult to understand about this.

Foxtrol

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Why wouldn't another party not be competent to handle Brexit?

The Brexit policy up to this was via cross party consensus.

There is cross party consensus on approach but you still need competent people in power to negotiate it with the other side.

SF might do an ok job but given their negotiation approach in the north had it shut down for years I'd wouldn't hold out much hope. It was only recently revived up north due to the public giving them all a kicking in the election, which likely wouldn't happen in the republic with Brexit until it was too late and Britain crashed out.

Ush1

SusieBlue wrote: »

I'm not ignoring the policies, I didn't even comment my opinion on them one way or another other than to say there are unachievable aspects all round, across all arties.
I just said that using the discrepencies in SF's policies as a stick to beat them with is disengenuous unless you are going to hold all the other manifestos to the same standard.

I didn't beat SF with any stick?
I am pointing out the differences in the parties policies, what are you struggling with? Have you read the mandates or watched the debates?

SusieBlue wrote: »

I'm saying FF/FG have had ample opportunity to make good on improving public services and budgeting and they haven't done that, and its time to give someone else a chance.
I really don't know what's so difficult to understand about this.

Exactly! A protest vote, thanks. Nobody is confused about why you voted for SF except you.

FrancieBrady

Foxtrol wrote: »

There is cross party consensus on approach but you still need competent people in power to negotiate it with the other side.

SF might do an ok job but given their negotiation approach in the north had it shut down for years I'd wouldn't hold out much hope. It was only recently revived up north due to the public giving them all a kicking in the election, which likely wouldn't happen in the republic with Brexit until it was too late and Britain crashed out.

SF negotiated a deal 2 years ago that the DUP walked away from because they had a sweetheart deal with the Tories.

The next phase of Brexit just requires us to stay aligned to the other member states position.
We have already gotten what we wanted...which I will remind you again was not FG's starting position.

Sammy2012

I didnt vote for sinn fein but now the way things are I can sit back and wait for my usc to be cut, carbon tax to be abolished, public services to be properly funded. I wont know what to do with all the extra money I have. I look forward to them getting started so I can increase my spending power very soon!

rdwight

NIMAN wrote: »

I have no great allegiance to SF, but can I ask you is there a time limit in your head when IRA atrocities are allowed to be forgotten about when a general election is on and SF are getting votes?

These 2 innocent kids who you pictured who died, should they be brought up in another 10 years, 20 years, 50 years?

Can SF ever run for election and not have these thrown up as a reason NOT to vote for them?

One of the rapes Harvey Weinstein is accused of took allegedly place in the early 1990's. Wonder what the young people voting SF would feel about that, for instance, being dismissed as a reason for not voting for him for an Oscar.

Foxtrol

FrancieBrady wrote: »

SF negotiated a deal 2 years ago that the DUP walked away from because they had a sweetheart deal with the Tories.

The next phase of Brexit just requires us to stay aligned to the other member states position.
We have already gotten what we wanted...which I will remind you again was not FG's starting position.

That's a poor excuse. How many times did Britain walk away from agreements for Brexit? The Irish team with Brexit acted like adults rather than sitting out and sulking like children as SF did in the north.

Staying aligned isn't as easy as it sounds, when so many blocks have their own agenda, and Britain crashing out is still a strong possibility.

Irish voters were clearly sick of the subject and see the danger has past but downplay the potential difficulties at your peril.

SusieBlue

Ush1 wrote: »

I didn't beat SF with any stick?
I am pointing out the differences in the parties policies, what are you struggling with? Have you read the mandates or watched the debates?

Exactly! A protest vote, thanks. Nobody is confused about why you voted for SF except you.

I'm not going down the rabbit hole of dissecting and picking apart the SF manifesto unless you are going to hold other parties to the same standard and acknowledge that there are discrepencies in theirs too.

That doesn't make it a protest vote, and you endlessly repeating it over and over won't make it so. There were other options to vote for besides FF/FG, yet people chose to vote for SF. If it were a protest against the status quo the Greens and Labour would have seen similar surges in popularity, but they didn't.
Don't be so patronising as to assume you know why I voted the way I did better than I do. You are putting words in my mouth. Acknowledging people wanted a change does not = protest.

Blaze420

SusieBlue wrote: »

I'm not going down the rabbit hole of dissecting and picking apart the SF manifesto unless you are going to hold other parties to the same standard and acknowledge that there are discrepencies in theirs too.

That doesn't make it a protest vote, and you endlessly repeating it over and over won't make it so. There were other options to vote for besides FF/FG, yet people chose to vote for SF. If it were a protest against the status quo the Greens and Labour would have seen similar surges in popularity, but they didn't.
Don't be so patronising as to assume you know why I voted the way I did better than I do. You are putting words in my mouth. Acknowledging people wanted a change does not = protest.

People voting for something just to give 2 fingers to the status quo without fully understanding what they are voting for = protest vote.

B0jangles

Ush1 wrote: »

I didn't beat SF with any stick?
I am pointing out the differences in the parties policies, what are you struggling with? Have you read the mandates or watched the debates?



Exactly! A protest vote, thanks. Nobody is confused about why you voted for SF except you.

How is that a protest vote?

FG had ample time to make good on their promises, and they've failed to do so in a great many ways. Where is the sense in believing that this time around they'll totally do better?

Sinn Fein have made various pledges and promises; maybe it's time to see if they are any better at keeping to them than FG/FF are.

FrancieBrady

Foxtrol wrote: »

That's a poor excuse. How many times did Britain walk away from agreements for Brexit? The Irish team with Brexit acted like adults rather than sitting out and sulking like children as SF did in the north.

hilarious.

Tell us oh wise one how you negotiate with people who will renege on agreement?

Staying aligned isn't as easy as it sounds, when so many blocks have their own agenda, and Britain crashing out is still a strong possibility.

Irish voters were clearly sick of the subject and see the danger has past but downplay the potential difficulties at your peril.

And you are arrogantly proclaiming that only FG have the smarts to negotiate for us.

There is no party more seasoned in difficult negotiations than SF.