What have we come to

joe40

Culianes celebration was unfortunate, I would imagine Mary Lou is raging. It is not the image Sinn Fein need to project

gormdubhgorm

joe40 wrote: »

Culianes celebration was unfortunate, I would imagine Mary Lou is raging. It is not the image Sinn Fein need to project

Bringing the peace process, back decades.

Foxtrol

Matt Barrett wrote: »

You still on this? Shinners would have supported the hunger strikers. Are you surprised?
Making light of autism being used as a slur. C'mon back to the moral outrage....

Again the hypocrisy, you should leave what happened in the past unless we chose to bring it up and celebrate it.

I'd understand more if the guy was from the generation of the hunger strikers or was closely associated with them but he wasn't even 10 at the time.

joe40

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Bringing the peace process, back decades.

I don't think so, it was a one off event.

sabat

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Does anyone else get the feeling the SF crowd could very easily turn very anti immigration too?

This is exactly what I'm thinking. At their heart they are an ethno-nationalist movement which has disguised itself well in order to be palatable to the electorate. If they do get a taste of power here there's no telling what they'd do to hold onto it.
Even if they didn't turn on 'new' foreigners, racial tensions on the island are almost guaranteed to increase. If for example the country was united and they were in government, (tens of?) thousands of people of a certain religious and political background in the north would flee to the UK- I have no doubt of this.

GreenandRed

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

OK I will tell you why Leo posed under a picture of Michael Collins.

1) In the gay scene he is apparently an icon and some even theorise he was gay

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/no-evidence-to-back-up-david-norris-allegation-that-michael-collins-was-gay-28819218.html


2) Collins was pro-treaty and stood for everything FG stands for.

Intelligence, compromise, slow and steady evolution of Ireland in the future.


3) Also he had great posture and I think Leo copies this -

Collins had great posture because he was confident and decisive. Leo doesn't, for me, exude confidence or decisiveness.

The Golden Miller

holyhead wrote: »

Appreciate you answering the question.

1. Irish people heading to the North while a nice idea, would have led to even greater bloodshed.
2. The North was a Unionist state which would not have tolerated politicians coming from another jurisdiction and again bloodshed.
3. The censorship in the Republic was because of SF being the political wing of the IRA. The SDLP were the acceptable face of Irish nationalism.

1. More bloodsheed? That's hypothetical.

2. Of course, the politicians were happy to let the northern nationalists face the bloodshed. They were cosy down here scoring political points.

3. As an extension to 2, the parties down here never bothered setting up in the north. They could have, even to have a presence whereby they could have stood alongside the Irish in the north. The censorship was pushed way beyond it's intended purpose, to the point it censored much of the brutality of what was actually happening towards the Irish people. It had to be overturned by a European commission in the end.

You really believe there was any real will or spine from the political landscape down here to help? We tell ourselves nothing could of been done because it justify's our complete inaction to help our own people, and how we left them at the hands of a sectarian regime.

SF didn't for all their faults. And they done alot of wrong too, but at least they did something. So many want to take this out of context and discuss their actions as if they happened in a vacuum, but all sides were guilty and lost all sight of what they were fighting for in the end. What happened, happened.

But don't go around talking about "decent Irish people" down here as if we're morally superior. Our decisions in the past caused alot of bloodshed for the Irish in the north

gormdubhgorm

joe40 wrote: »

I don't think so, it was a one off event.

It was not a one off look at the first SF candiate's celebrations, for example.

Foxtrol

irisheddie85 wrote: »

the 4th place candidate in ceann comhairle constituency was goin to a FF candidate.

when trying to set up the next government number of seats matter, not who won most first preferences.

I'm delighted Fianna Fail and Fine Gael both got a good kicking in this election but would have rathered a bigger vote for Greens SD and labour.

Too many of the independents elected are FF FG rejects for a grand coalition of the left to work Imo.

hell if FF FG combined with all the independants who had at some stage supported either party i think they would have a majority

A grand coalition of the left will never work, anyone you hear talking about it are putting on an act.

Irish people are too much in the centre, see how even the left parties still talk about cutting taxes that are used in basically all 'left' or 'nordic' countries. The bigger impediment is too many on the left are way too idealistic and self important to unite under one banner for any period of time and make tough decisions.

GreenandRed

mrslancaster wrote: »

First preference percentage, not overall percentage. Still a huge number who did not vote SF

Seats are what count, not percentages. Good vote management wins seats from poor precentages. Though i don't agree if SF ran more ccandidates it would have such a bigger tally. Depending on who they ran, adding more could have reduced voest for those who were elected and brought tranfers to opponents.

Doctor Jimbob

I see we've moved on to hypothetical racism now that talking about the ra and calling voters stupid hasn't worked.

Can I put forward "Mary Lou is a lizard person" as the next attack?

GreenandRed

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

It was not a one off look at the first SF candiate's celebrations, for example.

If they're gonna exclude every candidate who ever said or sang 'Up the ra' we're in trouble.

sabat

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

I see we've moved on to hypothetical racism now that talking about the ra and calling voters stupid hasn't worked.

Can I put forward "Mary Lou is a lizard person" as the next attack?

Yes or no. Do Sinn Féin supporters commonly talk about outbreeding the other half of the population of Northern Ireland in order to gain power?

gormdubhgorm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

You still on this? Shinners would have supported the hunger strikers. Are you surprised?
Making light of autism being used as a slur. C'mon back to the moral outrage....

Foxtrol wrote: »

Again the hypocrisy, you should leave what happened in the past unless we chose to bring it up and celebrate it.

I'd understand more if the guy was from the generation of the hunger strikers or was closely associated with them but he wasn't even 10 at the time.

Matt Barrett does not get the hypocrisy. Why would he? It is clear to me he is indoctrinated -

1) Justifies murder and murder cover ups - by saying fraud is worse.

2) Claims that Ireland should not live in the past and have matured - then brings up CJ Haughey as former alleged gun runner in 1969 - to try and deflect from Culliane's extremely recent comments. Haughey was banished politically for years by the way. What will happen Cullinane?

3) His/Her refusal to see any achievements in what FG did in government - brexit, marriage ref, divorce ref, presidential ref, full employment, improvement of transport infrastructure, driving Ireland out of the crash etc

4) Then there is his username - of Leo's partner despite being vehemently anti- FG

It is clear his view of SF is like a cult's disciple.

holyhead

The Golden Miller wrote: »

1. More bloodsheed? That's hypothetical.

2. Of course, the politicians were happy to let the northern nationalists face the bloodshed. They were cosy down here scoring political points.

3. As an extension to 2, the parties down here never bothered setting up in the north. They could have, even to have a presence whereby they could have stood alongside the Irish in the north. The censorship was pushed way beyond it's intended purpose, to the point it censored much of the brutality of what was actually happening towards the Irish people. It had to be overturned by a European commission in the end.

You really believe there was any real will or spine from the political landscape down here to help? We tell ourselves nothing could of been done because it justify's our complete inaction to help our own people, and how we left them at the hands of a sectarian regime.

SF didn't for all their faults. And they done alot of wrong too, but at least they did something. So many want to take this out of context and discuss their actions as if they happened in a vacuum, but all sides were guilty and lost all sight of what they were fighting for in the end. What happened, happened.

But don't go around talking about "decent Irish people" down here as if we're morally superior. Our decisions in the past caused alot of bloodshed for the Irish in the north

Please read what I write accurately. Your last paragraph’s first sentence is not something I said. Yes I said decent Irish people but NEVER suggested where they were or mentioned moral superiority.

As for SF doing something about the plight of Catholics in the a North. Yes they helped bring about peace but caused absolute carnage via the IRA along the way.
As for causing bloodshed for the Irish in the north look no further than the IRA as part of the problem

RandomName2

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

The hand-wringing and moralising on this thread is hilarious.

Simon Coveney only a few weeks ago was pressuring the parties in NI to go into government - including Sinn Fein. When they all did so, Coveney got a big pat on the back. But now that the prospect of SF being in government down here is likely, FG supporters are losing their marbles. If it's good enough for up the road, it's good enough for down the road.

I remember international negotiators were given pats on the back when they got Assad and the Free Syrian Army to get into negotiations. Doesn't meant that the people who did the congratulating would favor having Assad as their president.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

And how much time is necessary to pass before SF are deemed palatable to the FG crowd, one wonders? It's already taken longer than it took for FG to get into power in 1948, 15 odd years after their fascist forebears the Blueshirts were shaming the country...

Get a grip, folks.

One week. Maybe less.

Get rid of the murderers like Dessie Ellis. Not with golden handshakes and celebrations like Ferris, just chucked out the door. Get rid of the dissident dog whistles ('up the ra' barely qualifies it's so loud and clear, but you should get what I mean). Ideally change the name instead of pretending to be a 115 year old party that is the only true descendants of the 2nd Dail. Make it clear that violence, particularly against civilians, is always wrong. I don't mean 'it's wrong because some of our volunteers suffered', I mean wrong because it is morally wrong.

It isn't to do with time, it is to do with attitude.

In 2017 when Bjorn Hocke said "we Germans are the only people in the world who have planted a memorial of shame in the heart of their capital ", and suggested that Germans "need to make a 180 degree change in their commemoration policy" the issue wasn't how many years it had been since the second world war, it was the attitude of the person making the statement. Now a quarter of the voters in Thuringia don't care that Hocke is a bit of an apologist for the far-right, he is promising jobs for an area that is seriously suffering, economically. The other two parties in that province have vowed not to go into government with the AfD given their questionable morals, and as such we currently have a stalemate there.

Foxtrol

GreenandRed wrote: »

If they're gonna exclude every candidate who ever said or sang 'Up the ra' we're in trouble.

I'd believe the list of people who did that when celebrating being elected as a TD is pretty short. Like there's a difference arriving hungover to work to your regular 9-5 and doing it when you're a TD.

When you're elected you're judged to a different standard but people who are voted in due mostly on a wave rarely tend to not understand that because they are in their bubble.

gormdubhgorm

GreenandRed wrote: »

If they're gonna exclude every candidate who ever said or sang 'Up the ra' we're in trouble.

Oh so that is normal behavior is it?

Behavior without certain connotations to the past and present?

It just proves that SF are too politically immature to have power in the ROI. Provo Para-militarism is not gloried by the majority population of the ROI.

It is clear when the true colours are shown SF is out of touch with the majority in the ROI. Hiding behind populous issues like health and housing, can only protect them for so long.

topper75

joe40 wrote: »

Culianes celebration was unfortunate, I would imagine Mary Lou is raging. It is not the image Sinn Fein need to project

The woman who walked behind the England Get Out of Ireland banner? Doubt it.

The Golden Miller

holyhead wrote: »

Please read what I write accurately. Your last paragraph’s first sentence is not something I said. Yes I said decent Irish people but NEVER suggested where they were or mentioned moral superiority.

As for SF doing something about the plight of Catholics in the a North. Yes they helped bring about peace but caused absolute carnage via the IRA along the way.
As for causing bloodshed for the Irish in the north look no further than the IRA as part of the problem

They filled a vacuum because the parties down here never bothered going north in the first place. They could have stood with the Irish in the north

holyhead

A government comprising FG/FF is possible but unlikely. Looks like SF is going into government. Given the apparent hostility of the two main parties to SF not sure how that is going to work.
I imagine the British government hopes SF are kept out of the equation but as I say that looks unlikely.
SF were the only realistic alternative to the historic duopoly. A fresh election may lead to a further obliteration for candidates from the duopoly if the public blame them for not going into government with SF and SF emboldened by this election result runs more candidates.
The duopoly are caught between a rock and a hard place. Can’t envisage Varadkar being Taoiseach and Martin doesn’t inspire confidence. A Coveney led FG with Mary Lou as Tanaiste might be a runner.

The Golden Miller

holyhead wrote: »

A government comprising FG/FF is possible but unlikely. Looks like SF is going into government. Given the apparent hostility of the two main parties to SF not sure how that is going to work.
I imagine the British government hopes SF are kept out of the equation but as I say that looks unlikely.
SF were the only realistic alternative to the historic duopoly. A fresh election may lead to a further obliteration for candidates from the duopoly if the public blame them for not going into government with SF and SF emboldened by this election result runs more candidates.
The duopoly are caught between a rock and a hard place. Can’t envisage Varadkar being Taoiseach and Martin doesn’t inspire confidence. A Coveney led FG with Mary Lou as Tanaiste might be a runner.

SF would prefer another election and run more candidates. They'll need to be the major party if they really do plan on implementing big change. If they are kept out by FF/FG, they'll be certs next time around as you say

GreenandRed

Foxtrol wrote: »

I'd believe the list of people who did that when celebrating being elected as a TD is pretty short. Like there's a difference arriving hungover to work to your regular 9-5 and doing it when you're a TD.

When you're elected you're judged to a different standard but people who are voted in due mostly on a wave rarely tend to not understand that because they are in their bubble.

That must be it. Arriving hungover to a 9-5 job means you start at 9. Being a TD you can stay out of the chamber, or down the constituency can turn up late to a clinic.



Sin Féin really have you worried after the last government's excellent job running the country.

Idbatterim

Given the way this has planned out. Sf can tell Mickey Mouse , they want the Taoiseach and housing position etc , or we can have another election...

Varadkar just squeezing in and sf not winning the most seats is a disaster in my opinion. Those ff rats have been let off the hook !

gormdubhgorm

sabat wrote: »

This is exactly what I'm thinking. At their heart they are an ethno-nationalist movement which has disguised itself well in order to be palatable to the electorate. If they do get a taste of power here there's no telling what they'd do to hold onto it.
Even if they didn't turn on 'new' foreigners, racial tensions on the island are almost guaranteed to increase. If for example the country was united and they were in government, (tens of?) thousands of people of a certain religious and political background in the north would flee to the UK- I have no doubt of this.

There are messages on this from SF -

2002 AENGUS Ó SNODAIGH open letter to the times on SF racism policy

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/sinn-fein-policy-on-racism-1.1050135


"Any member of Sinn Féin who makes racist remarks or is involved in any activity, which is racist, will be immediately expelled from the party"

Yet they have had to use those procedures this very year 2020.
Note not 1920, not 1970, not 1990.

https://www.irishpost.com/news/sinn-fein-councillor-accused-racism-leo-varadkar-says-comments-misinterpreted-177445

There is no doubt that SF attracts the disenchanted, foreigners out/taking our jobs types - working class - types like Paddy Holohan. They always will.
It happens when the mantra is to tell people to get out rather than inclusiveness.

Padre_Pio

The Golden Miller wrote: »

SF would prefer another election and run more candidates. They'll need to be the major party if they really do plan on implementing big change. If they are kept out by FF/FG, they'll be certs next time around as you say

And that's the rub.
FFFG plus one more is needed for majority, a rainbow coalition.
Whoever goes in with them is almost guaranteed to get destroyed, a la PDs, Labour and Greens in the past.

Either way Sinn Fein come out on top. If we have a new election, theyll run more candidates and strengthen.
If they go into government they'll have fulfilled their wildest dreams.
If they put in a good show as opposition thell strengthen in the next electrion.

So long as they keep these lads from mouthing off Up the Ra, they're golden for the next few years.

GreenandRed

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Oh so that is normal behavior is it?

Behavior without certain connotations to the past and present?

It just proves that SF are too politically immature to have power in the ROI. Provo Para-militarism is not gloried by the majority population of the ROI.

It is clear when the true colours are shown SF is out of touch with the majority in the ROI. Hiding behind populous issues like health and housing, can only protect them for so long.

How have you managed to get an internet vonnection in 1950? Politically immature? They'll never be politically mature if some block them being elected because they're afraid of change. As for health and housing, damn those sick people looking for damned roofs over their families head. Buy a calendar and learn what facts are before you go hypothesising more bullshi+.

irisheddie85

holyhead wrote: »

A government comprising FG/FF is possible but unlikely. Looks like SF is going into government. Given the apparent hostility of the two main parties to SF not sure how that is going to work.
I imagine the British government hopes SF are kept out of the equation but as I say that looks unlikely.
SF were the only realistic alternative to the historic duopoly. A fresh election may lead to a further obliteration for candidates from the duopoly if the public blame them for not going into government with SF and SF emboldened by this election result runs more candidates.
The duopoly are caught between a rock and a hard place. Can’t envisage Varadkar being Taoiseach and Martin doesn’t inspire confidence. A Coveney led FG with Mary Lou as Tanaiste might be a runner.

FG would have to be the junior partner having less seats.

A second election will probably mean more sinn fein seats but at the cost of the left parties not the traditional parties i think not to a major extent anyway. Someone will still have to go into power with someone they said they wouldnt 2 days ago.

Idbatterim

Padre_Pio wrote: »

And that's the rub.
FFFG plus one more is needed for majority, a rainbow coalition.
Whoever goes in with them is almost guaranteed to get destroyed, a la PDs, Labour and Greens in the past.

Either way Sinn Fein come out on top. If we have a new election, theyll run more candidates and strengthen.
If they go into government they'll have fulfilled their wildest dreams.
If they put in a good show as opposition thell strengthen in the next electrion.

So long as they keep these lads from mouthing off Up the Ra, they're golden for the next few years.

Yes this is what you would expect. But coujd anyone have seen this coming , even a few weeks ago ? Mlmd needs to put her foot on ff throat , they are the senior party or election again. i am happy for a second election in the context of fcuking ff over. If it’s back to the tried and failed ff , ill gladly vote again

Will sf get such a good chance again if fg replace that useless idiot varadkar etc. it’s a hard one to call!

KWAG2019

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

They are condemning themselves with their up the ra. You can't say its in the past and say up the ra.

The idea that you are a west brit if you don't agree with violence is another little sick phrase that you use.

There are plenty of Republicans that didn't resort to violence.

You are not less Irish then SF

I am astonished by the amount of absolute pacifists in Ireland. I think that people who did not live in the sectarian oppressive Orange statelet should be less quick to rush to simpleminded judgementalism.

West Brit is a phrase entirely suitable for the dominant philosophy in FG 2020. That party does not stand for any version of Irish nationalism or republicanism. That is their right but to me their view of a future Ireland is a soul less and bland little England.

In regard to violence I lived through the era and I saw no point to the violence other than the defiance of an oppressed people to stand up to their oppressors and force them to admit that the state violence visited on a community for generations was matched. It was a point made in increasing savagery by all sides including the so called democratic govt in Westminster.